2009 Franchise Tag Number for QBs

[Box_O_Rocks]

Who needs a QB in 2009, and might trade a #1 pick for him?

I'd say at least 7 teams:

Detriot Lions
New York Jets (Favre won't be around for long)
Houston Texans
San Fran 49ers
Chicago Bears (Depending on how Orton pans out)
Minnesota Vikings
Kansas City Chiefs

My 2 cents:
- Lions, 49ers, Vikings: yes.
- Jets: not a chance within the division.
- Texans: Schaub was doing okay until he was injured, they aren't trading for a franchised QB so soon after the Schaub deal.
- Bears: Are farging clueless about QB, so I doubt they trade for a Franchised player.
- KC: Think they have the bull by the balls with Tyler Thigpen and Brody Croyle to back him. Herm, 'nuf said.

A team you didn't mention:
- Tampa Bay: Gruden is nuts about QBs and isn't sold on the ones he has, including Garcia.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Only if you don't trade him...

It's quite deceptive to say that. He *will* get his 14+ million that is guaranteed - or he will get more than that (up front). Cassel is guaranteed the 14+ million and no one can take it away from him - except he can choose to accept more.

You seem to think that it's a slam dunk that Cassel would take a bigger up-front bonus for a smaller per year deal. What's to stop Cassel from simply taking the 14+ million for 1 year and then signing the big free agent contract the next year? Oh, yeah, that's right - nothing! Think about it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

It's quite deceptive to say that. He *will* get his 14+ million that is guaranteed - or he will get more than that (up front). Cassel is guaranteed the 14+ million and no one can take it away from him - except he can choose to accept more.

You seem to think that it's a slam dunk that Cassel would take a bigger up-front bonus for a smaller per year deal. What's to stop Cassel from simply taking the 14+ million for 1 year and then signing the big free agent contract the next year? Oh, yeah, that's right - nothing! Think about it.

Irrationally or rationally???!

Besides rotting on the bench as Brady's backup again and being labeled an ahole no GM wants to deal with and then being forgotten after he sits out a year in the what have you done for me lately league... Players who believe in themselves and want to play don't do that. Matt wants to play as a starter in the NFL.

Players and their agents aren't stupid like fans - they realize at the end of the day the bigger up front bonus money guarantees they see a few more years salary on top of it so their take home on the big deal would likely be close to double that tag implicitly guaranteed (by the dead cap remaining on their signing bonus). Plus all the endorsements and other perks a starting NFL QB is in line reap. And they know their career can end at any moment on a practice field or slipping on the soap in the shower so you get as much as you can when opportunity knocks. Otherwise players would just love to be tagged. Once they sign the tag they cannot even wink at other teams. Until they do they are free to market themselves while generally the focus of much media attention and speculation they couldn't buy absent the buzz being tagged generates.

 

[NovaScotiaPatsFan]

I'm suprised Brady gets over $4M less than Peyton. He could very easily b!tch and moan about that, but I don't think I have heard him talk about his contract ever.

I have, but just in the generic "we'd like to get this done so we can focus on football." terms.

 

[dhamz]

That's all good if you trade him. But if Cassel has any brains, and he does, he'll sign that tag the microsecond it is offered. Then he is guaranteed 14.6 mil, and if for any reason the Pats can't trade him, they are on the hook for his salary.

And of course he would likely do this. There is nowhere on the market he gets 14.6 mil guarenteed for 2009 plus the ability to be an UFA after the season where he would then get more guarenteed $.

 

[Miguel]

After the Aaron Rodgers deal, as it stands right NOW, the 2009 franchise tag number for QBs will be $14,651,000. It was $14,143,000


Peyton Manning Indianapolis $18,700,000
Tom Brady New England $14,620,000
Carson Palmer Cincinnati $13,980,000
Aaron Rodgers Green Bay $13,957,419
Brett Favre NY Jets $12,000,000

There had been some posts in the past asking how much it would cost to tag Cassel in 2009 if the Pats chose to tag him.

I should point out that if the Giants extend Eli his 2008 cap number will likely supplant Favre's from the list and if Eli gets around the same amount of signing bonus as did Big Ben ($25.2 million) that would make his 2008 cap number for the purposes of the franchise tag number around $15.5 million. If Eli's 2008 cap number is $15.5 million, then it will cost around $15.3 million to place the franchise tag on Cassel in 2009.

 

[K-Ro 25]

people seldom understand there is a difference between what a player makes per year and what his cap hit is, just as total contract value is only relevent if you play out the deal (see m. Vick who got a $34m signing bonus that was divided over a couple of seasons much of which he now owes back...). Favre is in the final salary only years of his 10 year $100+ deal with green bay. He is actually making $12m this year. Tom is making $8m. Manning is making $11.5m. Aaron rogers is making $12.9m (in a salary frontloaded deal to use up cash and cap in gb who might otherwise not have met the cap floor limit this season). Carson palmer is making $7.75m.

Manning's deal had a total value of 9 years $126m with $34.5m in signing bonus and low salaries augmented by another $19m in roster bonuses in years 3 and 4. Tom's deal was for 6 years and $61m with $14m in signing bonus and $12m in option bonus in year 2 plus some partial injury/performance guarantees (like if they cut him because he could no longer play). Palmer's deal was for 6 years $118m with $15m in signing bonus and a $9m option bonus.

The figures used to set the tag are essentially cap figures. They can and do fluctuate as new players are signed or existing players have their contracts restructured or extended. They are essentially current salary and bonus money not prorated plus and prorated share of bonus money spread into that year regardless of when it was actually paid.

I believe up til now tom had averaged around $12m per on his deal though that average will now drop back towards the actual contract average of $10m+ unless he is extended. Manning has averaged closer to $15m per although his average will drop to $13m if he should not be extended. Palmer has probably taken home more money than tom over the last 5 years because he also got a #1 draft pick rookie deal before the deal he is now on while tom played here for peanuts through 2001 and signed an interim deal in 2002 before getting his current deal in 2005. So if you look at bonus and guaranteed money i believe tom is #3 (and was #4 before vick got sent to the big house). Some of the recent deals signed by romo for example average a bit more than tom but they don't see the money as soon.

Eli will be up for his extension next and his deal will be a corker since condon is his agent as he was peyton's.

great post!:d

 

[BlitzFritz]

That's all good if you trade him. But if Cassel has any brains, and he does, he'll sign that tag the microsecond it is offered. Then he is guaranteed 14.6 mil, and if for any reason the Pats can't trade him, they are on the hook for his salary.

In order to trade him for a day one pick, three things must happen:

1. The other team must believe he is worth a day one pick, and
2. Cassel must agree to be traded to that team (if he doesn't want to go to the Lions or the Chiefs, he simply refuses to do a deal, gets his $14 mil for 2009 and is a free agent in 2010), and
3. Cassel (or his agent) and the trading team must come to an agreement as to his worth. If Cassel or his agent think he is worth more on the open market than the trading team is willing to pay, there will be no trade.

I disagree with the idea that the Pats must get something for him. They are getting a year of terrific QB play for peanuts in salary. If they want to give him starter's pay this year, then fine, try to get compensation when he leaves. But if they lowball him on salary this year, they owe it to him to cut ties and let him be a FA.

Is this all true? (i am not doubting it...)
If so, then this is critically important information that has NOT been factored into discussions on this (confused) board.
Sounds like, it would indeed be a HUGE risk for the Pats to franchise MC, since MC will be in control of whether or not he gets traded.....

- FRITZ

 

[xmarkd400x]

What people ignore is that it makes sense for Cassell to NOT sign a franchise offer. Suppose he could sign his 1-year guaranteed 14m from Pats, or he gets a chance to start plus a 4 year 40m contract with 18m guaranteed. Which would you do?

 

[BlitzFritz]

What people ignore is that it makes sense for Cassell to NOT sign a franchise offer. Suppose he could sign his 1-year guaranteed 14m from Pats, or he gets a chance to start plus a 4 year 40m contract with 18m guaranteed. Which would you do?

Im not sure..... I could take 14-15M$ this year, and then be a free agent next year, no risk of injury, looking for a big contract at 27, but with my nest egg in the bank....

I guess we could all sit here and debate what each of us would do.
The issues appears to be that the Pats NEED TO KNOW that MC will NOT sign the franchise offer, else they are in big trouble (14m$ of money tied up in a back up QB - unthinkable)

How could the Pats works this? Could they discuss this w MC in advance? Could they sign a side deal with him? (I am making stuff up now)

Looks like a tough situation for the NEP to me

- FRITZ

 

[Triumph]

I should point out that if the Giants extend Eli his 2008 cap number will likely supplant Favre's from the list and if Eli gets around the same amount of signing bonus as did Big Ben ($25.2 million) that would make his 2008 cap number for the purposes of the franchise tag number around $15.5 million. If Eli's 2008 cap number is $15.5 million, then it will cost around $15.3 million to place the franchise tag on Cassel in 2009.

Couldnt NE lower Bradys number too? Thus lowering Cassels Tag #.

That would show intent on keeping Cassel if Brady isnt ready.

 

[spacecrime]

What people ignore is that it makes sense for Cassell to NOT sign a franchise offer. Suppose he could sign his 1-year guaranteed 14m from Pats, or he gets a chance to start plus a 4 year 40m contract with 18m guaranteed. Which would you do?

Think about it. The franchise tag is for ONE year. After that he is free to sign that 18 upfront deal.

So the only thing that makes sense is to sign the 14 mil franchise this year, then next year sign the 18 mil guaranteed deal next year.

That is what Asante did, basically doubled his guaranteed money. He was just to dumb to understand what was happeneing until after it was over, then said, "Oooo, wait, I got myh big contract PLUS and extra $10 Mil!"

Or Cassel can choose to force the Pats to revoke the tag by refusing to do a deal with any team the Pats work a trade with, then go negotiate with that team (and all the others) as a free agent. Pats would be stuck with a non-tradable $15 mil a year player.

Up to Cassel, whatever he wants to do.

Cassel holds all the cards.

 

[Triumph]

That's all good if you trade him. But if Cassel has any brains, and he does, he'll sign that tag the microsecond it is offered. Then he is guaranteed 14.6 mil, and if for any reason the Pats can't trade him, they are on the hook for his salary

There are a few problems with this though.

1.Sure, Cassel can sign the tag and sit on the bench and watch Brady play. Next season will his value be as high? If he and his agent are smart they will strike while the iron is hot.

2.The Tag is almost like a death sentence. Say Brady isnt ready and Cassel goes out and suffers a career ending injury. Hell be damaged goods.

Cassel can more money in Signing Bonus via a long term contract plus salary and play in the NFL. A 1st round pick is a bargain for a battle tested QB who can step right in and takeover.

 

[Miguel]

Couldnt NE lower Bradys number too? Thus lowering Cassels Tag #

There are two ways to lower Brady's 2008 cap number.

Get Brady to agree to a paycut. Even he did, the savings would not be that much as Brady has been paid for 13 weeks.
5,000,000 / 17 * 13 = 3,823,529
730,000 / 17 * 4 = 171,765
Total = 4,117,647

That would result in lowering the tag number by $176,000.

Convert part of his 2008 salary that is over the minimum with Brady's years of experience into a signing bonus. Tag number would be reduced by about$59,000.

Why would Brady agree to a paycut??
Why would the Pats convert part of Brady's 2008 salary thereby increasing his future cap hits??

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Think about it. The franchise tag is for ONE year. After that he is free to sign that 18 upfront deal.

So the only thing that makes sense is to sign the 14 mil franchise this year, then next year sign the 18 mil guaranteed deal next year.

That is what Asante did, basically doubled his guaranteed money. He was just to dumb to understand what was happeneing until after it was over, then said, "Oooo, wait, I got myh big contract PLUS and extra $10 Mil!"

Or Cassel can choose to force the Pats to revoke the tag by refusing to do a deal with any team the Pats work a trade with, then go negotiate with that team (and all the others) as a free agent. Pats would be stuck with a non-tradable $15 mil a year player.

Up to Cassel, whatever he wants to do.

Cassel holds all the cards.

Cassel holds none of the cards.

If he signs the tag pre-emptively he's telling every GM in the league he doesn't think his market is more than $14M. He's also telling them he isn't driven to start. Big red flag for any future takers... If Brady returns in pre season Matt sits and drops off the radar dramatically. Asante didn't have Champ Bailey coming back from injury to take his job. He was a starter who got a second shot at showcasing his talent, although he'd have just as soon been traded and gotten his big bonus deal a year sooner without assuming the risk of a career ending injury or his stock dropping... If Brady returns to put up record production again, Matt looks more like a poor mans system fallback than a bonefide starter come 2010.

If Matt forced them to revoke the tag by being uncooperative, which they can do until July, they're then stuck with NO CAP HIT...although he's missed an entire critical offseason of becoming immersed with his new team and a new offense so that wouldn't really work for him, either...Not to mention some teams who wanted him will have moved on because they have to... His highest value will be pre draft. And under the standard non exclusive tag he and his agent are free to talk to all comers on the first day of FA and gauge interest and establish preferences based on situation and contract potential. Then it's up to his agent and the NEP FO to find a match that accommodates both sides desire to get him gone to be a starter. If both sides cooperate a deal gets done, if not one or both are in an untenable position - which is why those deals historically get done.

I think Matt is smart enough to know you go along to get along in this league. You don't bite the hand that fed you unless you have ego problems (like Mangini did...). There is enough of the once burned fear of former BB system allstars already that it wouldn't take much gossip behind the scenes for GM's to be too leary to risk their jobs on another.

 

[AzPatsFan]

It's quite deceptive to say that. He *will* get his 14+ million that is guaranteed - or he will get more than that (up front). Cassel is guaranteed the 14+ million and no one can take it away from him - except he can choose to accept more.

You seem to think that it's a slam dunk that Cassel would take a bigger up-front bonus for a smaller per year deal. What's to stop Cassel from simply taking the 14+ million for 1 year and then signing the big free agent contract the next year? Oh, yeah, that's right - nothing! Think about it.

And 2010 isa an UNCAPPED year, so he could pocket real money immediately too. In addition Brady probably won't be fully healthy until well into the next season. So Cassel probably is guaranteed at least half a season of Starts.
with a Team that is now in ther top dozen, and will finish the rebuilding of its Defense this offseason. The Pats should be favorites to make the Superbowl in 2010. How much will he be worth coming off a Superbowl appearance, with no CAP?

 

[AzPatsFan]

After the Aaron Rodgers deal, as it stands right NOW, the 2009 franchise tag number for QBs will be $14,651,000. It was $14,143,000


Peyton Manning Indianapolis $18,700,000
Tom Brady New England $14,620,000
Carson Palmer Cincinnati $13,980,000
Aaron Rodgers Green Bay $13,957,419
Brett Favre NY Jets $12,000,000

There had been some posts in the past asking how much it would cost to tag Cassel in 2009 if the Pats chose to tag him.

Are these actual compensations, or merely CAP accounting fictions? Miquel says the franchise tag uses the accounting CAP figures not actual compensation, and he ought to know, but I would think the ACTUAL compensation figures should apply.

 

[Miguel]

Are these actual compensations, or merely CAP accounting fictions? Miquel says the franchise tag uses the accounting CAP figures not actual compensation, and he ought to know, but I would think the ACTUAL compensation figures should apply.

My name is spelled and should be typed as Miguel. It is a pet peeve of mine when people spell my name wrong especially when it is spelled correctly on the screen for you.

Should has nothing to do with it. I am just following the rules.

 

[DaBruinz]

Miguel -
If 2010 stays as an uncapped year, then players with less than 6 vested seasons, but are at the end of their contracts, become RFAs. Players with 6 or more vested seasons are UFAs.

What would Cassel's status be if he signed the Franchise tender as a UFA? We he go back to being an RFA at the end of 2009? Or would he be a UFA? I think it would be stupid to force players who have attained their UFA status back to being RFAs, but then, stranger things have happened...

I think that will play a huge part in whether or not Cassel would have any inkling to sign the Franchise contract.

 

[Miguel]

Miguel -
We he go back to being an RFA at the end of 2009?
Yes.

Or would he be a UFA?

I think it would be stupid to force players who have attained their UFA status back to being RFAs, but then, stranger things have happened...

Please remember that this is a poison pill to get the players to agree to an extension of the CBA.

I think that will play a huge part in whether or not Cassel would have any inkling to sign the Franchise contract.

If Cassel signs the franchise tag and plays for the Pats at that number for the 2009 season, in order for the Pats to make him a RFA tender they would have to tender at 110% of his 2009 salary or $16,116,100 if the 2008 franchise tag is 14.651 million.

From the CBA

(ii) For Restricted Free Agents with four Accrued Seasons (in Uncapped Years):
(1) Right of First Refusal: one year Player Contract with Paragraph 5 Salary of at least $771,600 for the 2006 League Year, $925,000 for the 2007 League Year, $1,002,000 for the 2008 League Year, $1,085,000 for the 2009 League Year, $1,176,000 for the 2010 League Year, $1,275,000 for the 2011 League Year, or $1,383,000 for the 2012 League Year, as applicable;
(2) Right of First Refusal and Draft Selection at Player’s Original Draft Round: one year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) the amount set forth in Subsection (b)(ii)(1) above; or (b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged (this Subsection is subject to the rules of Subsection (c) below);
(3) Right of First Refusal and One Second Round Draft Selection: one year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $1,375,000 in the 2007 League Year, $1,492,000 in the 2008 League Year, $1,620,000 in the 2009 League Year, $1,759,000 in the 2010 League Year, $1,910,000 in the 2011 League Year, or $2,075,000 in the 2012 League Year, as applicable, or (b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged
(4) Right of First Refusal and One First Round Draft Selection: one year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $1,673,000 for the 2006 League Year, $1,975,000 for the 2007 League Year, $2,142,000 for the 2008 League Year, $2,323,000 for the 2009 League Year, $2,521,000 for the 2010 League Year, $2,736,000 for the 2011 League Year, or $2,971,000 for the 2012 League Year, as applicable, or (b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged; and
(5) Right of First Refusal, One First Round Draft Selection, and One Third Round Draft Selection: one year Player Contract with Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $2,196,600 for the 2006 League Year, $2,475,000 for the 2007 League Year, $2,687,000 for the 2008 League Year, $2,917,000 for the 2009 League Year, $3,168,000 for the 2010 League Year, $3,442,000 for the 2011 League Year, or $3,741,000 for the 2012 League Year, as applicable, or (b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged.