2009 Franchise Tag Number for QBs

[AzPatsFan]

My name is spelled and should be typed as Miguel. It is a pet peeve of mine when people spell my name wrong especially when it is spelled correctly on the screen for you.

Should has nothing to do with it. I am just following the rules.

Thank You, Miguel. I never noticed the spelling error, obviously. My name is butchered quite regularly too.

 

[xmarkd400x]

Im not sure..... I could take 14-15M$ this year, and then be a free agent next year, no risk of injury, looking for a big contract at 27, but with my nest egg in the bank....

I guess we could all sit here and debate what each of us would do.
The issues appears to be that the Pats NEED TO KNOW that MC will NOT sign the franchise offer, else they are in big trouble (14m$ of money tied up in a back up QB - unthinkable)

...

- FRITZ

Fair points. I'd think that MC's value will be at it's highest after this season. Certainly I wouldn't turn my nose up at $15m (More than I'll earn in my lifetime, barring unforseen circumstance). I think it will turn out OK for the pats.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Perhaps I missed it but I assume the point of this thread is whether or not there's any constraint on the Patriots having to have nearly $15 million of cap space open.

I have no doubt they can do this - but depending on how quickly everything shakes out, couldn't this have some impact on early free agency signings for the Pats? Don't they have to have the space free whether Cassel signs or not?

And if a $14 million guarantee is something that Cassel and his agent, and quite a few fans here, would scoff at, what are people actually expecting Cassel to get guranteed? Schuab got $7 million guranteed. Is everyone expecting Cassel to get 3x that amount? 4x? 5x?

Given that $14 million is so laughable, I'd be interested in knowing what upfront guranteed money Cassel is expected to get by those here?

After all, the length and amount of the contract matters little - guranteed money is all we're talking about here - and the Franchise gurantee for QBs isn't all that bad. Things certainly worked out well for Asante on that deal with the extra $10 million guaranteed.

 

[Miguel]

Perhaps I missed it but I assume the point of this thread is whether or not there's any constraint on the Patriots having to have nearly $15 million of cap space open.

I was the OP. I started this thread to provide a basis for discussion. IMO, it matters what it will cost to tag Cassel in 2009. In September people were throwing out $10 million as the number. $14.6 is a good deal higher than $10 million. If it is $15.3 million, that would be more than 50% higher than the early estimate.

I have tried to point out that the Patriots may be constrained by the cap. There are 12 players (Wilfork, Mankins, Watson, Ghost, O'Callaghan, Thomas, LeKevin Smith, Hobbs, Kaczur, Green, Hochstein, Yates) on the Patriots whose 2009 salaries could be increased because of attained escalators.

Please note that the 1st day of free agency is also the first day that Cassel can be traded so it is possible that the Pats could be constrained. They would not be if trades were allowed to take place before free agency started. There was talk of allowing trades to take place before free agency commenced. But as of now, that is not true.

 

[Miguel]

Thank You, Miguel. I never noticed the spelling error, obviously. My name is butchered quite regularly too.

It is just a pet peeve of mine. My name has been butched my entire life. It happens all the time at my job.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I was the OP. I started this thread to provide a basis for discussion. IMO, it matters what it will cost to tag Cassel in 2009. In September people were throwing out $10 million as the number. $14.6 is a good deal higher than $10 million. If it is $15.3 million, that would be more than 50% higher than the early estimate.

I have tried to point out that the Patriots may be constrained by the cap. There are 12 players (Wilfork, Mankins, Watson, Ghost, O'Callaghan, Thomas, LeKevin Smith, Hobbs, Kaczur, Green, Hochstein, Yates) on the Patriots whose 2009 salaries could be increased because of attained escalators.

Please note that the 1st day of free agency is also the first day that Cassel can be traded so it is possible that the Pats could be constrained. They would not be if trades were allowed to take place before free agency started. There was talk of allowing trades to take place before free agency commenced. But as of now, that is not true.

As of last week I think most were realizing we were talking close to $14 million. Now we're at $14.6.

But at $14 million most of the posters on the "Tag and Trade" Cassel were speaking like the tag salary didn't matter, and that this "wasn't rocket science".

It's not rocket science but there's still some considerations that I agree, most fans had not considered.

For instance - Do you constrain yourself from being active early in free agency, in order to get a 2nd round pick, 1st round pick etc.? If given a choice between a proven stud free agent and a 1st round pick I go with the free agent. Ideally I'd like both but if Cassel's salary hurts our ability to sign our own or a different free agent, if I'm a GM, that's a consideration.

So I'm still not convinced that tagging Cassel has no consequences like most here - the fact that its about a million more than I was expecting only reaffirms this.

I'm still interested in knowing how much Cassel can expect in guranteed money in a long term contract. Most members here have him laughing off $14 million guranteed, even with the ability to generate another guranteed bonus the following season. I just wonder what range of guranteed money they really expect him to generate.

 

[Triumph]

Why would Brady agree to a paycut??

Brady has always done whatever it took to hep the team in the past. Once Cassel is traded, Brady would be compensated.

Why would the Pats convert part of Brady's 2008 salary thereby increasing his future cap hits??

Because they have done this before.

 

[Miguel]

Why would Brady agree to a paycut??

Brady has always done whatever it took to hep the team in the past.

In this step, Brady would be in effect screwing over a teammate. Brady has never done such a thing. Are you saying that the Pats will put into Brady's new contract that he will get more money once Cassel is traded?? Or this is a wink-wink deal??

Because they have done this before.

With healthy players, yes. They have never done such a thing with a player on IR.

 

[Miguel]

It's not rocket science but there's still some considerations that I agree, most fans had not considered..

I think that one such consideration is how difficult it will become to redo deals because of the 30% rule. It appears to me that the tag and trade crowd think that it will be as easy to create cap room if 2009 is indeed the last capped year as it has been in the past.

 

[Miguel]

Brady has always done whatever it took to hep the team in the past. Once Cassel is traded, Brady would be compensated.

Let's say this happens. What would then stop Cassel from waiting to agree to a trade as pay-back to the Patriots???

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I was the OP. I started this thread to provide a basis for discussion. IMO, it matters what it will cost to tag Cassel in 2009. In September people were throwing out $10 million as the number. $14.6 is a good deal higher than $10 million. If it is $15.3 million, that would be more than 50% higher than the early estimate.

I have tried to point out that the Patriots may be constrained by the cap. There are 12 players (Wilfork, Mankins, Watson, Ghost, O'Callaghan, Thomas, LeKevin Smith, Hobbs, Kaczur, Green, Hochstein, Yates) on the Patriots whose 2009 salaries could be increased because of attained escalators.

Please note that the 1st day of free agency is also the first day that Cassel can be traded so it is possible that the Pats could be constrained. They would not be if trades were allowed to take place before free agency started. There was talk of allowing trades to take place before free agency commenced. But as of now, that is not true.

There in a nutshell is the conundrum the Pats org finds itself in. Over $15M tied up for a potential 1st or couple 2nd round picks used on untried college players with an opportunity cost of possibly not extending key KNOWN contributors and possibly not signing a top rank known quantity FA quickly enough. That's why Belioli gets the big bucks. 5 stars.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

As of last week I think most were realizing we were talking close to $14 million. Now we're at $14.6.

But at $14 million most of the posters on the "Tag and Trade" Cassel were speaking like the tag salary didn't matter, and that this "wasn't rocket science".

It's not rocket science but there's still some considerations that I agree, most fans had not considered.

For instance - Do you constrain yourself from being active early in free agency, in order to get a 2nd round pick, 1st round pick etc.? If given a choice between a proven stud free agent and a 1st round pick I go with the free agent. Ideally I'd like both but if Cassel's salary hurts our ability to sign our own or a different free agent, if I'm a GM, that's a consideration.

So I'm still not convinced that tagging Cassel has no consequences like most here - the fact that its about a million more than I was expecting only reaffirms this.

I'm still interested in knowing how much Cassel can expect in guranteed money in a long term contract. Most members here have him laughing off $14 million guranteed, even with the ability to generate another guranteed bonus the following season. I just wonder what range of guranteed money they really expect him to generate.

Schefter said last week he's looking at Aaron Rogers type money which was 6/$65M with $20M guaranteed. And while he was a former late 1st rounder he was stuck behind the franchise for 3 years in GB and got his deal after just a half dozen starts. The Schaub deal isn't really comparable since he had never been more than a spot starter and had never won a game. Derek Anderson started for 15/16ths of a season and I believe got $13M guaranteed on just a 3 year $24M deal...designed to retain him in the interim on a team where he had a shot at remaining the starter - so again, apples and oranges.

Couple of other things to keep in mind. The tag is salary and as such paid out over the course of the 17 week season. Signing bonus is paid up front, so even a $12M signing bonus is effectively worth more than the tag because you have the capacity to invest it in March-April as opposed to receiving it in $859K increments between September and December 2009. And when a player signs a new long term deal the investment in cash, cap and even picks usually guarantees him (implicitly) he will see the first 3 years of his deal. For Cassel that could be closer to $25-30M...

But the most significant concern Cassel will have regarding his future guarantees is that he be starting for a team potentially long term. Here he's not going to get that. When Brady is ready to go, and that projects to be as early as pre season 2009, he's out of any realistic shot at starting here. And in the NFL, out of sight is out of mind. He can't compete with the next great starting prospect who emerges from the bench. And there is no way this value oriented HC will want him to. O'Connell is next up off the bench, and if he doesn't develop sufficiently they will have guys in to compete with him, including Gutierrez, to cover contingincies. I know some here struggle to accept that, but they struggled to accept the last untested backup here too just 10 weeks ago...

If we have barely double digit millions in available cap entering FA we won't be constrained over the first few weeks when we are seldom active anyway. And there are lots of ways to insure we do that won't impact us down the road because that tag will come off the cap once he's traded.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Paul Perillo is on with Felger this AM on the WEEI pre game show and they just discussed the issue. Perillo noted that he's been told by a source in this orgnanization that no player has ever grieved the use of a tag to trade. And it would make no sense for Matt to be the one to test it since ultimately his goal is to land a starting job. They also discussed the fact that this team could care less about what some shirt at the NFLPA or Peter King thinks, precedent is on their side. They discussed whether the trade price would limit Cassel's payday, and while some teams may choose not to compete or be willing to do as rich a deal as a result, Jared Allen got a top tier DE deal even as the team traded a first and 2 thirds for him...just this year. They also touched on the fact that while cap space is the overriding concern, this team has always found a way to do what they will cap wise if they even have a FA target in mind. Remember, just this season they reworked Brady's deal to create enough cap space on a given day to sign Randy Moss to a big FA deal...

 

[Miguel]

Remember, just this season they reworked Brady's deal to create enough cap space on a given day to sign Randy Moss to a big FA deal...

That was in 2007.

Did they talk about how if 2009 is the last capped year the 30% rule would be in effect??

 

[Miguel]

There in a nutshell is the conundrum the Pats org finds itself in. Over $15M tied up for a potential 1st or couple 2nd round picks used on untried college players with an opportunity cost of possibly not extending key KNOWN contributors and possibly not signing a top rank known quantity FA quickly enough. That's why Belioli gets the big bucks. 5 stars.

Indeed, Belioli has to also take into consideration
1.)if Derek Anderson and McNabb are on the market how much to ask for Cassel in a trade.
2.) If they defer extending Wilfork/Mankins/Seymour/Hobbs, will new FA deals make it more expensive to retain the aforementioned quartet??

 

[flasox27]

Couldn't agree with Perillo more. Too many people on this board underestimate the creativity of Belichick and Pioli.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That was in 2007.

Did they talk about how if 2009 is the last capped year the 30% rule would be in effect??

Of course not, they're generalizing and likely don't recall CBA minutae but this FO who seldom misses a trick likely set up at least a few deals to be flexible even in such contingincies, wouldn't you think?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Indeed, Belioli has to also take into consideration
1.)if Derek Anderson and McNabb are on the market how much to ask for Cassel in a trade.
2.) If they defer extending Wilfork/Mankins/Seymour/Hobbs, will new FA deals make it more expensive to retain the aforementioned quartet??

Agree with #2 very much so Michael, but Anderson & McNabb (age & wear especially) have not really distinguished themselves. The answer to #1 is a strong function of how well Cassel continues to play and of course how well the aforementioned vets finish out the season.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Indeed, Belioli has to also take into consideration
1.)if Derek Anderson and McNabb are on the market how much to ask for Cassel in a trade.
2.) If they defer extending Wilfork/Mankins/Seymour/Hobbs, will new FA deals make it more expensive to retain the aforementioned quartet??

Will it matter if they are entering an uncapped future, not to mention one where if they are a playoff team they may be restricted in signing any but their own FA unless they lose some? I don't think Hobbs will command more elsewhere than he may get here and therefore be a priority, and a new Seymour extension could lower his cap exponentially (not to mention he could be tagged to play as an incremental deal of sorts), and if he's back a Brady extension could also free up cap space.

Bill always says we can do anything we want (if we are willing to deal with some resulting tradeoffs being the codicil). I believe him. I've always said they will do it if it works for them value wise...

 

[DaBruinz]

Brady has always done whatever it took to hep the team in the past. Once Cassel is traded, Brady would be compensated.

Once a player's contract has been "renegotiated", it can not be changed for 1 year.

Because they have done this before.

To do so again would limit what they could do in the future..