Spotlight on Josh McDaniels Now

[maverick4]

That's because Weis didn't run a verticle offense. Weis liked the short passing game which meant Brady got rid of the ball really quickly.

...But at least Brady didn't get hit as much.

Your last sentence is your best one. Brady has taken a beating every year McDaniels has been OC.

I'm not even saying Weiss was the best OC ever, I am saying it's time for McDaniels to step up and show us what he can do when he doesn't have the best QB of all time under center to bail him out or make him look good.

 

[Rob0729]

Your last sentence is your best one. Brady has taken a beating every year McDaniels has been OC.

I'm not even saying Weiss was the best OC ever, I am saying it's time for McDaniels to step up and show us what he can do when he doesn't have the best QB of all time under center to bail him out or make him look good.

Brady gets hit because he decides to stand in the pocket that extra second to make the play. That is going to happen if you have more plays down the field. That would have happened even if Weis was here. Weis didn't like the vertical passing game all that much. That is the difference.

I am very confident that McDaniels will step up. Weis had the same QB who bailed him out and made him look good too.

Brady got injured on a freak play. It wasn't because McDaniels had him hold onto the ball too long. It was because the defender was blocked into Brady's knee. That could have happened on quick screen.

 

[maverick4]

I am very confident that McDaniels will step up. Weis had the same QB who bailed him out and made him look good too.

Brady got injured on a freak play.

C'mon, you can't be serious.

Brady 01-04 under Weiss was a young growing player, not the 05-08 Brady that McDaniels inherited.

Also, I don't care that it was a freak play, that's not even my point, the fact is Brady has been taking a beating since 05 under McDaniels. Anyone remember the 05 Denver playoff game where Brady was on his back all night? It's not just that game, Brady has been taking much more vicious hits with McDaniels picking the calls.

 

[captain stone]

Since 2005 the guy has been blessed with Tom Brady. For several years now people here have questioned his predictability in play calls, some head scratchers in calling horrible plays, slowness in making adjustments, as well as going deep too much which results in leaving his QB's vulnerable to get whacked. Basically the entire time he's been here he had the benefit of calling plays that relied on the independent talent and skill of his players, rather than on the cunning of his own plays.

He did go through one year with crappy receivers, but this time with all-pro talent all across the offense except at QB, it's time to see what this guy can do without his security blanket named Brady. I'm still skeptical that this guy has enough savvy or patience to run a ball control, intelligent offense. I don't think it's a coincidence we haven't won the big one since he became coordinator. The pressure is on.

It is impossible for me to agree more with this post.

2006 forced the OC (& HC) to innovate; 2007 allowed him to let Brady & Moss run the offense as they pleased, in persuit of a phoney-baloney TD-catching record.

If the same old, predictable playbook employed by Brady is handed to Cassel, then the OC (& HC) will have just committed game-planning suicide.

 

[Rob0729]

C'mon, you can't be serious.

Brady 01-04 under Weiss was a young growing player, not the 05-08 Brady that McDaniels inherited.

Also, I don't care that it was a freak play, that's not even my point, the fact is Brady has been taking a beating since 05 under McDaniels. Anyone remember the 05 Denver playoff game where Brady was on his back all night? It's not just that game, Brady has been taking much more vicious hits with McDaniels picking the calls.

So we cannot look at anything that happened in 2001-2004 because Brady was a young and growing player, but you keep on referring to 2005 to trash McDaniels even though it was his first year as an offensive coordinator even if he wasn't even officially the OC. Do you see the double standard here? Why do you keep pointing to McDaniels' first year calling plays as your constant examples.

 

[upstater1]

Such a magic touch that Parcells stripped him of his play calling abilities while at the Jets? Sorry, the Jets turn around came from the fact that Kotite's poison was gone and Testeverde was added to the system to go along with Weis' gameplanning and strategy.

Weis was still the same guy who insisted that Bledsoe throw WR screens eventhough he kept on hitting 5 foot nothing Troy Brown in the shins whenever he tried. Instead of trying to make the offense work for Bledsoe, he tried to force Bledsoe to run his offense.

Weis was a very good coordinator. I am not taking that away from him, but people have blown what he has done out of proportion. He had his worts and a lot of them at times. People were killing him in 2002 and 2003. His 2004 performance along with the Super Bowls have erased people's memories of the negatives.

Parcells' idiocy is none of my concern. Weis's offense was fantastic, and Parcells stripped him because he didn't like the risks Charlie was taking.

Parcells went on to...

Weis went on to win three rings running an offense with VERY few stars on it.

 

[maverick4]

Why do you keep pointing to McDaniels' first year calling plays as your constant examples.

I haven't just pointed to that year, I have pointed out multiple times that Brady has taken a beating EVERY year McDaniels has been OC, not just his first year as OC. Why do you keep ignoring this point?

 

[Rob0729]

BTW, Brady was sacked 41 times in 2001 which is only 6 times less than 2007 and 2006 combined. He was sacked 31 times in 2002 and 32 times in 2003 and that is more than the season high total of Brady under McDaniels of 26. So I don't think Brady was hit that many more times under McDaniels than Weis as you remember.

 

[Rob0729]

I haven't just pointed to that year, I have pointed out multiple times that Brady has taken a beating EVERY year McDaniels has been OC, not just his first year as OC. Why do you keep ignoring this point?

Because I don't know if the point is true. Show me some stats for knock downs. Brady clearly hasn't been sacked as much under McDaniels as Weis. Unless you can show stats for knockdowns and sacks, I don't know if you are remembering it correctly or remembering it as you want to remember it. As I said in my last post in 2006 and 2007 combined, Brady was sacked 47 times and in 2001 he was sacked 41 (and he didn't play for most of the first two games in 2001).

http://www.nfl.com/players/tombrady/careerstats?id=BRA371156

 

[Rob0729]

I did find that Brady's percentage of sacks per attempt was lower under McDaniels every year than any year under Weis.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

 

[maverick4]

That is just one issue, which you are trying to center the entire discussion about.

I'll try to find stats for knockdowns or some objective information concerning hits on Brady, but in the meantime, how about you address McDaniels':

- predictability
- unimaginativeness
- slowness to recognize or make adjustments
- over reliance on the individual skill and talent of his players, rather than on his play calling.

 

[Rob0729]

That is just one issue, which you are trying to center the entire discussion about.

I'll try to find stats for knockdowns or some objective information concerning hits on Brady, but in the meantime, how about you address McDaniels':

- predictability
- unimaginativeness
- slowness to recognize or make adjustments
- over reliance on the individual skill and talent of his players, rather than on his play calling.

I don't agree with you on any point though. I think McDaniels is pretty good at making adjustments, I don't think he is all that unimaginative (just because he doesn't throw in a lot of trick plays or play action passes doesn't make him unimaginative), predictable, or over rely on individual skill sets other than maybe Moss (and I can almost guarantee you Weis would too). McDaniels is not perfect, but he is a damn good fourth year OC.

Sorry, but you haven't really looked around the league much have you. I don't see all these totally creative, totally unpredictable offenses that adjust on the fly with everything the other team throws at them.

Again, if Mcdaniels was as bad as you say, why hasn't Belichick gotten a new OC or done what he did on defense and bring in a seasoned coach to help add new wrinkles to the offense? Belichick has no problems stepping on his proteges' toes assuming rumors of him stepping in and taking over some of the control of the defense from Mangini in 2005 were true.

 

[maverick4]

I don't agree with you on any point though. I think McDaniels is pretty good at making adjustments, I don't think he is all that unimaginative (just because he doesn't throw in a lot of trick plays or play action passes doesn't make him unimaginative), predictable, or over rely on individual skill sets other than maybe Moss (and I can almost guarantee you Weis would too). McDaniels is not perfect, but he is a damn good fourth year OC.

Every single year he has been OC there have been countless threads and examples that point to his predictability, unimaginativeness, and over-reliance on his player's skill to bail his calls out.

In 05 an example is like our season ending loss at the Denver game, in 06 the Indy game, in 07 the Giants game.

Your last paragraph doesn't make logical sense. It could be just as likely that Belichick is a defense expert but defers more to his coordinators when it comes to offense. He seems much more hands on with defense and even with Weiss gives his OC's more free reigns.

I respect that you're trying to debate this rationally and calmly.

 

[Rob0729]

Every single year he has been OC there have been countless threads and examples that point to his predictability, unimaginativeness, and over-reliance on his player's skill to bail his calls out.

In 05 an example is like our season ending loss at the Denver game, in 06 the Indy game, in 07 the Giants game.

Your last paragraph doesn't make logical sense. It could be just as likely that Belichick is a defense expert but defers more to his coordinators when it comes to offense. He seems much more hands on with defense and even with Weiss gives his OC's more free reigns.

I respect that you're trying to debate this rationally and calmly.

So it was McDaniels' predictability that caused 5 fumbles vs. Denver, three on special teams? It is McDaniels predictability that caused the defense to be unable to cover Dallas Clark or Joseph Addai against Indy? I still have never gotten the argument that it was McDaniels' fault for either of those game. The offense in the AFC Title game vs. Indy scored enough points to win, but the defense collapsed and allowed the Colts to come back. I believe in most losses everyone deserves a piece of the blame pie, but McDaniels' pieces were pretty small in both those losses. You can argue he had a much bigger piece in the Super Bowl loss.

If you go back to prior to the Super Bowl win in the 2003 season, there were plenty of threads complaining about Weis. Some things were that he was too creative for his own good. There are too many three and outs. He overrelies on the trick play that never works. Etc. I wasn't on this board then and I don't know if you were on any boards back then, but the ones I was one constantly bashed Weis in the 2002 and 2003 seasons.

As for my last paragraph, Belichick brought in Capers to manage the secondary and help with the defense. There have been plenty of opportunities for Belichick to replace McDaniels or bring in a seasoned veteran coach to help out, but he hasn't. Belichick is very hands off with the offense, but he was far more hands on during the Weis years (mostly because Belichick took on the responsibilities of QB coach after **** Reibein died). So I don't know if it makes any difference that Pees or Mangini worked on the defensive side of the ball.

I too appreciate the civility of this argument since most McDaniels' threads turn into just dirty fights.

 

[Deus Irae]

Every single year he has been OC there have been countless threads and examples that point to his predictability, unimaginativeness, and over-reliance on his player's skill to bail his calls out.

In 05 an example is like our season ending loss at the Denver game, in 06 the Indy game, in 07 the Giants game.

Your last paragraph doesn't make logical sense. It could be just as likely that Belichick is a defense expert but defers more to his coordinators when it comes to offense. He seems much more hands on with defense and even with Weiss gives his OC's more free reigns.

I respect that you're trying to debate this rationally and calmly.

First of all, every fanbase complains about the mythological "creativity" issues of their coordinators.

Second, you are using losses to prove a point when they don't fit the argument. The Indy game when the team put up over 30 points is somehow evidence? The Broncos game where a horrible P.I. called an a terrible Brady throw killed the team is somehow evidence? The Giants game where the team tried screens and short passes to take the heat off Brady, but it wasn't enough because the OL completely collapsed is somehow evidence?

The reality is that the offense has been fine from a playcalling perspective.

 

[maverick4]

Our defense while McDaniels has been OC is superior to the defense pre-McDaniels, yet we always seem to come up short, with specific criticisms of the OC for each season-ending loss... and yet you think the offense is fine?

It was fine because Brady was the QB and no matter what bone headed play McDaniels called, Brady was so good he could make it work, or audible out of it.

Anyways, I guess we'll need to wait until the season is almost over to judge how McDaniels has fared without Brady. In my opinion he's no better than Norv Turner was at Dallas, just an OC lucky to coach HOF talent.

 

[maverick4]

Here is a question for you:

- Do you think we should have more 'dink and dunk' style offense now, more quick outs, screens, and deception plays including play action and traps?

Another question:

- Do you think McDaniels will adapt to Cassel or stubbornly stick to his guns on the vertical game, like he's done before and been quoted on?

 

[NEPatriot]

BB said that he would not accomplish 50% of his plan without TB.

 

[Deus Irae]

Our defense while McDaniels has been OC is superior to the defense pre-McDaniels, yet we always seem to come up short, with specific criticisms of the OC for each season-ending loss... and yet you think the offense is fine?

Yes. Fan bellyaching does not equal truth.

It was fine because Brady was the QB and no matter what bone headed play McDaniels called, Brady was so good he could make it work, or audible out of it.

You don't know what's called vs. what's audibled. You're just acting like NEM, which should have caused you to instantly reassess your arguments.

Anyways, I guess we'll need to wait until the season is almost over to judge how McDaniels has fared without Brady. In my opinion he's no better than Norv Turner was at Dallas, just an OC lucky to coach HOF talent.

Call me when Caldwell, Branch, Givens, Watson, Graham, Patten, Johnson and Gaffney make the Hall of Fame.

 

[maverick4]

You don't know what's called vs. what's audibled.

Sometimes we do. For example, some people initially tried to give credit to McDaniels for yesterday's 51 yd bomb, when it was actually just Moss and Cassel improvising from the play, which was after 2 extremely predictable runs for no gain. In fact, our play yesterday was so predictable the Chiefs were stacking 9 in the box on first and second down frequently against us.

Also, keep bringing up 05 all you want, the key piece is Brady. As we saw with Branch and Givens 01-04, Brady can keep the show going even with average talent.

What makes you dismiss so easily the fact that Brady has been making McDaniels look a lot better than he actually is as a coordinator?