Lifer

Happy Easter

http://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm

PatsFanInVa

First of all, happy easter back to all my Christian friends here.

Now then, about the linked page: It seems that this interpretation is at odds with any scintilla of moral imperative to do good in the world; it is the perfect theology for a coward or someone too lazy to challenge himself. I may myself fit into such a paradigm, mind you; but I define that state of being as falling short, not achieving perfect grace. Nor would I so define it if I believed in one or another cultic figurehead such as Jesus. The mechanics are just too convenient.

I thank God that many righteous gentiles during World War Two did not embrace this interpretation of Christianity, but rather reasoned that what we do matters -- and often staked their lives on it.

It is possible to know the difference between right and wrong, and watch wrong perpetrated from the sidelines, if we reason that what we do is unimportant.

It is impossible to be such an accomplice to evil if we reason that what we do is important.

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Your theology advocates just such a course of inaction.

PFnV

Lifer

thank you. it might be helpful next time if you actually read the entire link where it was made very clear this is not a license to sin, and that as followers of Christ, sin is less appealing and the desire to follow his example is an expectation. There are many biblical passages there if one is not lazy enough to fall back into simplistic cliches and attack on anothers belief system.

my own comment, "..it is not what we do...." was not a call to not do anything, it was a comment that it was not tied to salvation.

PatsFanInVa

I read your link. My response is not an attack.

The significance of human action and suffering is in doubt in a once-saved-always-saved universe. It is, in fact, in doubt in a mixed works/faith system of salvation as well; when death is not "for keeps," life becomes surreal. Eastern systems featuring reincarnation similarly reinvest life with meaning; but at least acting in "ignorance" in the here-and-now prevents evolution through rebirth in that system, just as in a works-based theology, evil actions prevent attainment of salvation.

I just believe in doing the right thing. There is nothing wrong with expressing that preference.

Once-saved-always-saved theology does not satisfactorily urge one to do the right thing, because at heart it is belief that matters in this system, not actions.

Thanks,

PFnV

fleabassist1

What does the easter bunny represent? If eggs represent new life and the bunny lays them is the bunny god?

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PatsFanInVa

In the scenario described above, the bunny would represent genetic engineering. I am not certain the bunny actually lays the eggs, however, and so must be considered a messenger (evangelos, or angel,) rather than God his own self.

This of course founders (as does all speech about monotheistic religion,) on the problem that God's omnipresence prevents not-God. So yes, from that point of view, the bunny must be God, as must be you and I. But this is the sort of pantheistic outlook that has pi s s ed off any number of saints and rabbonim over the centuries.

PFnV

Lifer

It depends on whether your belief system is based on how you think things should be as opposed to how things are. I mean, who is defining truth. If I believe that I am in charge of the truth, then I agree, life should be based on fair. But I believe that God is charge of whats true. And according to Gods word, whats fair is that we are all sinners, and that based on our own merit, none of us deserve Salvation, even the most righteous. But because of Gods Grace, He has provided a way for us to have what we do not deserve.
And because of God of Gods mercy, we do not get what we do deserve. He only asks for acceptance of His son.

That is my belief, not because I say so, but because God says so.

You are free to believe otherwise. I just ask you do not misrepresent my viewpoint as implying people that believe this are free to do whatever they want and that what we do doesnt matter. That is a whole different topic.

The thread and the link are only about the question of Salvation, not the merits of living a good life or being a good person.

PatsFanInVa

Oh at least credit Pilate and don't try to pass the quote off as your own work

And the two, in your world-view, are separate and distinct. That is the point. In many other world-views, they are inseparable. That feature of the "once saved always saved" viewpoint should be discussed, and this is the place to do it.

If the subject of your thread is one or another theology, it strikes me that we are in the realm of comparative religion, rather than the realm of singing hosannahs and heaping encomiums on your chosen beliefs.

PFnV

Lifer

maybe ive just had a long day at work, but can you say that last paragraph again a little plainer? I think you are saying because im talking theology, it is assumed im comparing it to another. Why? On Easter I was just pointing out that per my beliefs, the significance is that what Jesus did by dying on the cross and raising from the dead 3 days later so that we may have a path to Salvation was enough, and a link was provided to support that, as way of celebrating, or, in your words, singing hosannahs to the good news.
If you saw that as an implied attack on everyone elses religion, or yourself, you read too much into it. You really dont have to believe in it, it is your choice to reject it. But I have a right to say it. And when you add things to it that I never said, Im going to speak up.

I do apologize if the words "Its not what we do" was taken as meaning it doesnt matter what we do in this life, all the good we do, gentiles saving people during the holocaust etc etc......again, the "Its not what we do" was meant only as regarding how Salvation is obtained.
I can understand why non-Christians would not want to hear about a faith where Heaven is not like all the Hollywood movies. You know, you die, you go to a subway station, some guy like Richard Mulligan or Morgan Freeman is there to greet you, you go have the best sushi in the world because everything is better there, then if you are good enough you stay, and if you arent, you get sent back as a poor farmer or something to do it over again or you get dragged down a sewer like the guy in Ghost.
Simple! Just be good.

So when what the Bible says about it is brought up, of course someone who doesnt believe it is offended that they have to, for a second, ponder their own eternity. And of course that becomes the fault of the person who brought it up.

Nowhere in that link did i mention another faith. I was talking about my own.
Which i thought appropriate given the day celebrating the resurrection. Without getting into a debate about "Easter", I myself, was celebrating the resurrection, and providing some background with the link of its significance.

PatsFanInVa

My point is that in discussing the theology you adhere to on a message board, you therefore invite discussion of that theology.

Given that others will almost certainly disagree with your theology, that invites a comparative relgious approach.

All that said, that was merely to explain why it is pertinent that some faiths attach importance to our actions.

Long story short: it seems to me that people of just about every religion do good and do bad. It also seems that it would be quite difficult for anybody to do an unbiased analysis of the sum effect on society of any given religon. So, I just figure the best thing is for everybody to enjoy their own.

However, when the disconnect of ethical behavior from theological expectation within a system is so distinct, I just feel it is appropriate to point out that feature of that specific theology -- especially in a religion forum which exists, after all, to discuss religion

PFnV