Wtf happened with Brissett deal?

[Coolade2]

My opinion of the trade was slightly knee-jerk from the Edelman injury. The fact that Dorsett was a 1st rounder inflated his value. So was van Noy, and several other players Patriots have acquired. Former 1St rounders.. that the team likely has a book on.

Isn't the jury still out on Dorsett? He hasn't shown much but he's still here and if Brady gets him on the same page ( granted that's not easy..) he could prove to be useful. Especially in the mcD Smurf offense which utilizes small guys almost to a fault... If he gets cut in favor of Patterson, Britt, dare I say Lucien... Wow then the trade will have been a massive failure. Ouch.

 

[Coolade2]

Err... Hoyer is 16-21, Brissett is 3-13. Not sure you can say that with any confidence.


That "checked out" Texans team made the playoffs. And Brissett played against the Bills with a broken thumb on his throwing hand. That's pretty laudable all by itself.

Let's make no bones about it. That Colts team was BAD. B-A-D BAD. Andrew Luck had failed to coax a winning record out of this team the previous year. They had crap for an OL, crap for a running game, no ability to create pressure on the opposing QB, and their secondary was a joke.

I followed them last year and they specialized in one thing and one thing only -- 4th quarter meltdowns. Brissett isn't a great QB, he can't cover for a team that plays 45 minutes and throws in the towel. They melted down at least 6 times that season to lose games that Brissett had given them a chance to win. If that Colts team had been able to take care of business for a full 60 minutes, Brissett goes 7-9 or even 8-8. Even if they'd won half the games they'd had a lead in the 4th quarter, that's a 6-10 or 7-11 team.

They didn't have an offensive line worth a damn, they didn't have a running game, and yet Brissett virtually on his own managed to give the Colts a fighting chance far more often than not. For a guy who doesn't have a top end skillset, that's pretty damn impressive.

I also was impressed by Jacoby Brissett in his first year as a starter. He was a game manager in much the same way Brady was early on.. people forget that. Difference is Brady had belichick and a good team around him. Brissett has the colts.. ug.

Brissett also is big and mobile and that other forgotten attribute... durability. I was hoping this year both JG and JB would be starting for their teams... so we could compare their careers game by game... That would be a great thread..lol. ..

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Some thoughts on your post:

I agree their overall personnel decisions could’ve of been better.

I still can’t believe that a perennial loser like Bradford was traded for a 1st rounder.

49ers fleeced the Pats. But then again, the rest of the NFL must feel real dumb right now for sleeping on this trade. JAG still looks great.

But I’m glad Michael Bennett is not a Patriot. He’s nuts! Having both brothers on the team would’ve made it a circus.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your take on Bennett. When I heard the Patriots were offering something better (I think it was a second), I was pretty surprised they’d go that high. I know from Do Your Job that Ernie Adams thought the world of him in 2014/5, but four years later is a long time in the NFL. I do wonder if the Patriots saw the trade opportunity as a 2-for-1 in getting both Bennetts to restructure, which would explain an uncharacteristic move like that. Whatever his value turns out to be, though, my point is that they apparently made an error in making a late offer like that would headline like “Browns being the Browns” if Cleveland did the same thing.

People can rate my post as funny, chicken little, disagree, etc., that's fine. I'm pretty much always the guy whose laughing at others knee jerk reactions and reminding them that this is the best organization in American sports and one of the greatest brain trusts in history, and in particular, not to get bent out of shape when the team loses a game or when something doesn't pan out..but...the knife cuts both ways because I'm objective.

I'd say after almost 20 years of following the Brady-Belichick era and being in complete awe of their greatness, from the front office to the coaching staff to gameday, things really have not been good for a 3-4 years, but the greatness of Brady and Belichick (coaching) alone,along with decisions made years before that, has kept them at their normal dominant level; however in the words of Bob Dylan, "that long dark cloud is coming down" soon if they don't start figuring out how to regain their edge in the personnel department. The entire foundation of this dynasty outside of Brady has been in savvy personnel decisions and great draft trades and picks. Maybe this is just a bump in the road, and maybe these draft picks are just bad luck, but it's getting to be the norm.

The best teams bat way below .500 in the draft; I get it. But let's be real here: it isn't good when your team is now built on veteran players past their rookie deals and you have very little young talent, and it's disappointing they couldn't capitalize more on having several highly marketable quarterbacks, settling for a very low return.

I don't deny the greatness of this team in past years. The concern is that the greatness was built a long time ago, when they were making great moves for that "future" at the time. Now the failed moves of the past 3-4 years to build for the future are going to start revealing themselves soon.

My guess is the front office and personnel department gets a major shakeup within the next year, and then everyone will be parroting exactly what I've been saying, which has started to concern me for about a year and a half when I've realized they have been getting extremely low returns on their draft picks and don't seem to be working the same magic in free agency that we are accustomed to seeing.

Sorry if I'm not buying into a Cyrus Jones resurrection, the assumption that they hit a home run in this recent draft, the idea that Trey Flowers is their best young player is a positive compared to other teams, or that guys like Trent Brown, Deatrich Wise, Derek Rivers and Adam Butler are sure-fire difference makers. Or that Phillip Dorsett and other veteran receivers are actually a good fit in the system and not just the best options available. Or that Chris Hogan is an borderline elite receiver rather than just an awesome steal at a low cost who can contribute in a really positive way. Just a few years ago we were so stacked with talent that these guys would be bubble roster players, and now they are suddenly great players merely because they're starting due to being the best we have.

I'm not saying this team is going 6-10. Just that you'd have to be crazy to look at 2015-present, compare it to 2010-2014, evaluate their free agency signings, trades, and draft picks, and not realize this is a gigantic difference.

I'd be saying the same thing if they'd won the SB...Max Kellerman's comment about Brady is, ironically, somewhat true of the 53 man roster but not Brady. This is a team on the cliff of a major talent crisis. Too many older, veteran players over 30 who are not great from a salary cap standpoint. I have confidence they will figure it out, but Brady is 41.

 

[Wordsmyth]

I'm glad Hail Hydra knows how to run the Pats better than BB.

 

[Tony2046]

The way sports media works now, we get numerous headlines that look like they’re confirming the report when really the article just cites the original report without any additional confirmation. Who has independently corroborated Volin’s report?

Google.

 

[fnordcircle]

My opinion of the trade was slightly knee-jerk

Your opinion was knee-jerk or the trade was knee-jerk?

I won't pretend to be an insider, but anyone who insinuate anything about Belichick is knee-jerk has watched a different team than me.

 

[supafly]

I don’t necessarily disagree with your take on Bennett. When I heard the Patriots were offering something better (I think it was a second), I was pretty surprised they’d go that high. I know from Do Your Job that Ernie Adams thought the world of him in 2014/5, but four years later is a long time in the NFL. I do wonder if the Patriots saw the trade opportunity as a 2-for-1 in getting both Bennetts to restructure, which would explain an uncharacteristic move like that. Whatever his value turns out to be, though, my point is that they apparently made an error in making a late offer like that would headline like “Browns being the Browns” if Cleveland did the same thing.

People can rate my post as funny, chicken little, disagree, etc., that's fine. I'm pretty much always the guy whose laughing at others knee jerk reactions and reminding them that this is the best organization in American sports and one of the greatest brain trusts in history, and in particular, not to get bent out of shape when the team loses a game or when something doesn't pan out..but...the knife cuts both ways because I'm objective.

I'd say after almost 20 years of following the Brady-Belichick era and being in complete awe of their greatness, from the front office to the coaching staff to gameday, things really have not been good for a 3-4 years, but the greatness of Brady and Belichick (coaching) alone,along with decisions made years before that, has kept them at their normal dominant level; however in the words of Bob Dylan, "that long dark cloud is coming down" soon if they don't start figuring out how to regain their edge in the personnel department. The entire foundation of this dynasty outside of Brady has been in savvy personnel decisions and great draft trades and picks. Maybe this is just a bump in the road, and maybe these draft picks are just bad luck, but it's getting to be the norm.

The best teams bat way below .500 in the draft; I get it. But let's be real here: it isn't good when your team is now built on veteran players past their rookie deals and you have very little young talent, and it's disappointing they couldn't capitalize more on having several highly marketable quarterbacks, settling for a very low return.

I don't deny the greatness of this team in past years. The concern is that the greatness was built a long time ago, when they were making great moves for that "future" at the time. Now the failed moves of the past 3-4 years to build for the future are going to start revealing themselves soon.

My guess is the front office and personnel department gets a major shakeup within the next year, and then everyone will be parroting exactly what I've been saying, which has started to concern me for about a year and a half when I've realized they have been getting extremely low returns on their draft picks and don't seem to be working the same magic in free agency that we are accustomed to seeing.

Sorry if I'm not buying into a Cyrus Jones resurrection, the assumption that they hit a home run in this recent draft, the idea that Trey Flowers is their best young player is a positive compared to other teams, or that guys like Trent Brown, Deatrich Wise, Derek Rivers and Adam Butler are sure-fire difference makers. Or that Phillip Dorsett and other veteran receivers are actually a good fit in the system and not just the best options available. Or that Chris Hogan is an borderline elite receiver rather than just an awesome steal at a low cost who can contribute in a really positive way. Just a few years ago we were so stacked with talent that these guys would be bubble roster players, and now they are suddenly great players merely because they're starting due to being the best we have.

I'm not saying this team is going 6-10. Just that you'd have to be crazy to look at 2015-present, compare it to 2010-2014, evaluate their free agency signings, trades, and draft picks, and not realize this is a gigantic difference.

I'd be saying the same thing if they'd won the SB...Max Kellerman's comment about Brady is, ironically, somewhat true of the 53 man roster but not Brady. This is a team on the cliff of a major talent crisis. Too many older, veteran players over 30 who are not great from a salary cap standpoint. I have confidence they will figure it out, but Brady is 41.

I wouldn’t dispute the idea that these high round misses, injuries, and stolen picks will catch up to us. I’ve voiced the same concern, myself.

I do think that the success of the mid round picks and UDFAs, coupled with the acquisitions of some under the radar cost efficient pickups like Burkhead, Van Noy, and maybe even some guys like Hill/Britt/Patterson will help to offset some of those misses. As always, Belichick’s approach and handling of the salary cap will help to mitigate some other personnel flaws, too.

Fingers crossed that there is some better luck with some of the higher rated talent for a couple/few years, though. If that occurs, a lot of the misses won’t matter as much. Of course if it continues it has the potential to be very problematic.

 

[LaterGator]

The Jacoby Brissett we had is not the same player as the Jacoby Brissett of today.

We traded a guy with a whopping 2 games to his name.

The Colts have a Jacoby Brissett who just logged a full season of football and didn't suck. His rating was 81.9, which is above replacement level, even if it isn't by a lot. He is the average quarterback we thought he could be -- the difference is that now, he's proven it.

Combine that with the fact that he's still quite young and may still have a bit of upside if he can improve his accuracy and timing, and you've got a player who gained a lot of value last season. He's tough, he's smart, he's game, he's both capable and willing to pay the physical price of playing QB for a bad team, all these qualities make him actually quite a nice roster filler for the quarterback position. You can get some value for a guy like that, especially if a team is rebuilding, or has injury issues in the #1 QB slot.

As for the trade -- what can I say, we traded a guy we'd never trust to start for us as a long term thing, for some depth in a position that had experienced serious attrition. At the time of the trade, all of Hogan, Edelman and Amendola were out or banged up. I can't criticize BB for trading a spare part to shore up his depth at receiver, even if Dorsett doesn't work out, it was worth trying..

An 81.9 rating is average Hoyer's career avg is 83.3. He was a TO machine with 7 ITs, and 8 fumbles.

 

[DarrylS]

I doubt that he's a franchise QB. But is he better than Hoyer? Yes. Would we have trade bait on our team, so that WE could be the one's denying 2nd round picks for players that wouldn't start? 100% yes.

"Trade bait" implies there is a partner in mind to effect such a trade, that does not seem to exist except in the realm of "what might have happened".. trades happen in the NFL but not with the value often associated with other sports.. it seems most NFL trades a player of "lesser value" is received or the compensation is draft picks..

Just a reminder Jacoby started two games for the NEP, hardly a large sample for the fans to base much of anything on, he was, however, seen in daily practices by McDaniels/Belichick..

His Quarterback rating put him ahead of Newton, Manning, Flacco and Mariotta in 2017...

 

[maineman209]

veteran players past their rookie deals

It's good that there's an endless supply.

 

[Oswlek]

Sorry if I'm not buying into a Cyrus Jones resurrection, the assumption that they hit a home run in this recent draft, the idea that Trey Flowers is their best young player is a positive compared to other teams, or that guys like Trent Brown, Deatrich Wise, Derek Rivers and Adam Butler are sure-fire difference makers. Or that Phillip Dorsett and other veteran receivers are actually a good fit in the system and not just the best options available. Or that Chris Hogan is an borderline elite receiver rather than just an awesome steal at a low cost who can contribute in a really positive way. Just a few years ago we were so stacked with talent that these guys would be bubble roster players, and now they are suddenly great players merely because they're starting due to being the best we have.

Who is even selling the Cy Jones resurrection? Who think Chris Hogan is a borderline elite receiver? Who thinks Dorsett or Jones are great players? At what point would Wise, Brown, Rivers and Butler be bubble players? What are you even arguing regarding Flowers and who has said otherwise?

The hyperbole is off the charts in this statement.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I don’t necessarily disagree with your take on Bennett. When I heard the Patriots were offering something better (I think it was a second), I was pretty surprised they’d go that high. I know from Do Your Job that Ernie Adams thought the world of him in 2014/5, but four years later is a long time in the NFL. I do wonder if the Patriots saw the trade opportunity as a 2-for-1 in getting both Bennetts to restructure, which would explain an uncharacteristic move like that. Whatever his value turns out to be, though, my point is that they apparently made an error in making a late offer like that would headline like “Browns being the Browns” if Cleveland did the same thing.

People can rate my post as funny, chicken little, disagree, etc., that's fine. I'm pretty much always the guy whose laughing at others knee jerk reactions and reminding them that this is the best organization in American sports and one of the greatest brain trusts in history, and in particular, not to get bent out of shape when the team loses a game or when something doesn't pan out..but...the knife cuts both ways because I'm objective.

I'd say after almost 20 years of following the Brady-Belichick era and being in complete awe of their greatness, from the front office to the coaching staff to gameday, things really have not been good for a 3-4 years, but the greatness of Brady and Belichick (coaching) alone,along with decisions made years before that, has kept them at their normal dominant level; however in the words of Bob Dylan, "that long dark cloud is coming down" soon if they don't start figuring out how to regain their edge in the personnel department. The entire foundation of this dynasty outside of Brady has been in savvy personnel decisions and great draft trades and picks. Maybe this is just a bump in the road, and maybe these draft picks are just bad luck, but it's getting to be the norm.

The best teams bat way below .500 in the draft; I get it. But let's be real here: it isn't good when your team is now built on veteran players past their rookie deals and you have very little young talent, and it's disappointing they couldn't capitalize more on having several highly marketable quarterbacks, settling for a very low return.

I don't deny the greatness of this team in past years. The concern is that the greatness was built a long time ago, when they were making great moves for that "future" at the time. Now the failed moves of the past 3-4 years to build for the future are going to start revealing themselves soon.

My guess is the front office and personnel department gets a major shakeup within the next year, and then everyone will be parroting exactly what I've been saying, which has started to concern me for about a year and a half when I've realized they have been getting extremely low returns on their draft picks and don't seem to be working the same magic in free agency that we are accustomed to seeing.

Sorry if I'm not buying into a Cyrus Jones resurrection, the assumption that they hit a home run in this recent draft, the idea that Trey Flowers is their best young player is a positive compared to other teams, or that guys like Trent Brown, Deatrich Wise, Derek Rivers and Adam Butler are sure-fire difference makers. Or that Phillip Dorsett and other veteran receivers are actually a good fit in the system and not just the best options available. Or that Chris Hogan is an borderline elite receiver rather than just an awesome steal at a low cost who can contribute in a really positive way. Just a few years ago we were so stacked with talent that these guys would be bubble roster players, and now they are suddenly great players merely because they're starting due to being the best we have.

I'm not saying this team is going 6-10. Just that you'd have to be crazy to look at 2015-present, compare it to 2010-2014, evaluate their free agency signings, trades, and draft picks, and not realize this is a gigantic difference.

I'd be saying the same thing if they'd won the SB...Max Kellerman's comment about Brady is, ironically, somewhat true of the 53 man roster but not Brady. This is a team on the cliff of a major talent crisis. Too many older, veteran players over 30 who are not great from a salary cap standpoint. I have confidence they will figure it out, but Brady is 41.

Of the key players on the current roster, only Brady, Gost, Slater, Hoyer, Chung and Devin Mc are 30 or over. All of those players have team-friendly cap positions. If Devin has a bad year, he will be gone after this year or take a pay cut. If Chung has a bad year, same deal as neither player has bad cap deals. Thats the beauty of this team. You can't really find a bad contract anywhere. Lets be clear though, the only way this team becomes an average ballclub is when Tom goes. While Tom is still Tom, they are still going 10-6 at a minimum.

With all that said, if this team is shredded after 2018, 2019 or 2020, they have the cap flexibility and player acquisition system in place to stay competitive.

However my real problem with your post is you are implying the FO needs to be gutted after this year but then you say you have confidence they will figure it out. Since BB owns the FO, what are you implying?

 

[Simpelton]

An 81.9 rating is average Hoyer's career avg is 83.3. He was a TO machine with 7 ITs, and 8 fumbles.

Average quarterbacks do tend to make mistakes, yes. That does not mean they are not average quarterbacks.

His Quarterback rating put him ahead of Newton, Manning, Flacco and Mariotta in 2017...

Well put. No one is saying Jacoby Brissett is elite, but fans of teams that are accustomed to elite QB play severely underestimate the value of having an average quarterback, and no team has a worse perspective on that kind of value than the New England Patriots who are used to MVP caliber quarterback play.

There's usually between 5 and 10 teams in the league that would kill to have a nonproblem like Brissett as their starting QB

 

[Simpelton]

Or to put it another way, we can gague Brissett's value to an extent by the value the Browns gave up for Tyrod Taylor. Taylor's a little better than Brissett on paper, mostly because the Bills are a much better team than the 2017 Colts were. Brissett cancels out that disadvantage by being young and cost controlled, so it should roughly average out.

The Browns traded a high third round pick for Taylor, establishing the value of that kind of non-elite professional starter to be in the ballpark of a high 3rd or low second.

Volin is still nuts, but not because he *SLIGHTLY* overestimated the value of a professional game manager who can take the ball for 16 games.

Nah, the reason Volin is nuts is because the team he said wanted to trade a second for Brissett didn't have one, and because you don't bring in a Tyrod Taylor/Jacoby Brissett type unless you're seriously considering having him start for you. That's the only way these guys return their value.

The ONLY reason the Seahawks make a move for a Brissett type would be if they were planning on trading away Russel Wilson. And that's insane.

 

[IllegalContact]

who?

 

[Nunchucks]

Or to put it another way, we can gague Brissett's value to an extent by the value the Browns gave up for Tyrod Taylor. Taylor's a little better than Brissett on paper, mostly because the Bills are a much better team than the 2017 Colts were. Brissett cancels out that disadvantage by being young and cost controlled, so it should roughly average out.

The Browns traded a high third round pick for Taylor, establishing the value of that kind of non-elite professional starter to be in the ballpark of a high 3rd or low second.

Volin is still nuts, but not because he *SLIGHTLY* overestimated the value of a professional game manager who can take the ball for 16 games.

Nah, the reason Volin is nuts is because the team he said wanted to trade a second for Brissett didn't have one, and because you don't bring in a Tyrod Taylor/Jacoby Brissett type unless you're seriously considering having him start for you. That's the only way these guys return their value.

The ONLY reason the Seahawks make a move for a Brissett type would be if they were planning on trading away Russel Wilson. And that's insane.

Lets not forget that Brisset came into the league with some work to do, and he started for the Colts with only 1 year of experience. Tyrod Taylor has been around for a while ebfore he started.

I always liked Brisset and would have rather seen him here in NE than traded for a WR that doesn't appear to be on the same page as Brady, a year into the experiment. Obviously, this is hindsight, but I never liked the trade, especially in light of the Jimmy G trade.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I wouldn’t dispute the idea that these high round misses, injuries, and stolen picks will catch up to us. I’ve voiced the same concern, myself.

I do think that the success of the mid round picks and UDFAs, coupled with the acquisitions of some under the radar cost efficient pickups like Burkhead, Van Noy, and maybe even some guys like Hill/Britt/Patterson will help to offset some of those misses. As always, Belichick’s approach and handling of the salary cap will help to mitigate some other personnel flaws, too.

Fingers crossed that there is some better luck with some of the higher rated talent for a couple/few years, though. If that occurs, a lot of the misses won’t matter as much. Of course if it continues it has the potential to be very problematic.

Less hyperbolic way of putting it than my posts. Thanks.

 

[tasmlab]

The Brisset/Dorsett trade can't be looked at by just the players alone. Situation and roster count too. The Pats had their best receiver go down in the preseason and needed a receiver more than a third string QB.

 

[Real World]

Brissett is nothing special. A career back-up at best. Did the Pats sell low, or not maximize the return on Brissett? I don't think so. He was likely going to be a camp casualty according to reports, and they moved him for a recent, but struggling, former 1st round WR still on his rookie deal.

I'd apply salt to all the "reports" that talk about draft pick return on potential traded players. I'm sure we all remember the different alleged returns Jimmy G was going to fetch. Plus why would Seattle waste a 2nd on Brissett when they have an in his 20's Russell Wilson?

 

[Froob]

Brissett is nothing special. A career back-up at best. Did the Pats sell low, or not maximize the return on Brissett? I don't think so. He was likely going to be a camp casualty according to reports, and they moved him for a recent, but struggling, former 1st round WR still on his rookie deal.

I'd apply salt to all the "reports" that talk about draft pick return on potential traded players. I'm sure we all remember the different alleged returns Jimmy G was going to fetch. Plus why would Seattle waste a 2nd on Brissett when they have an in his 20's Russell Wilson?

Bill has a long history of getting bad value on QBs. Why didn't he trade Mallett to Houston for 2 1sts, Watt and Mercilus? He settled for a sixth to hook his buddy up.