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Would you take Greg Little with a late 2nd or early 3rd?

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brady199

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I know most people don't think WR is a big need, but this is a show me league and I haven't seen much from Taylor Price or Brandon Tate. Tate has had enough time to show something, but he hasn't. Price is a project and probably needs another year. Edelman is a tease, he looks amazing at times, but just didn't produce last year for some reason. Deion Branch is a decent WR who isn't durable and getting old for a WR. Welker is a slot WR, while he keeps the chains moving, we need is a Stud WR on the outside.

Outside of AJ Green and Julio Jones, I think Little is the best WR in the draft. I've seen him projected as late as the 5th round, but I think he will go earlier then that. Anyone on board with this or am I crazy?
 
I know most people don't think WR is a big need, but this is a show me league and I haven't seen much from Taylor Price or Brandon Tate. Tate has had enough time to show something, but he hasn't. Price is a project and probably needs another year. Edelman is a tease, he looks amazing at times, but just didn't produce last year for some reason. Deion Branch is a decent WR who isn't durable and getting old for a WR. Welker is a slot WR, while he keeps the chains moving, we need is a Stud WR on the outside.

Outside of AJ Green and Julio Jones, I think Little is the best WR in the draft. I've seen him projected as late as the 5th round, but I think he will go earlier then that. Anyone on board with this or am I crazy?

Depends on what you consider a "big need".

I agree that Price is a cipher at this point, but I'd question the claims that "Tate has had enough time" and that he hasn't shown anything. Last year was effectively Tate's rookie season after nearly two years out of football due to injury. Yes, I'm aware that he was active for three weeks (two games) in 2009, but he was legally barred from even practicing with the team other than that, so it seems pretty harsh to consider 2010 his second year.

In any case, I believe that Tate was drafted primarily as a KR and only secondarily as a WR, which corresponds to what he did in college. In 2010, he was the best KR we've had during the BB Era, posting stats that rivaled what Hester posted as a KR in HIS rookie season, though that's not entirely a fair comparison since Hester's forte is returning punts more than kicks.

Tate didn't see a lot of opportunities as a WR in 2010 (neither did Edelman), I think partly because we were in 2-TE sets a lot, which were unfortunately necessary for us to be able to run the ball (the source of a lot of our offensive problems in the two losses to the Jets, as well as in some of the close victories earlier in the season). This circumstance contributed to keeping both Tate and Edelman very low on the pass-target depth chart behind Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Moss/Branch and even Faulk/Woodhead, so Tate didn't see a lot of target opportunities to begin with, although, admittedly, this was also partly due to his route-running and separation skills still being under development (rookie). Even so, he posted an 18+ YPC and a catch rate (48%) that was equal to or better than that of Fitzgerald, DeSean Jackson, Brandon Lloyd, Michael Floyd and several other veteran WRs who carried a similar YPC in 2010. Given that accuracy on the long ball hasn't exactly been Brady's strong suit since returning from his injury, that doesn't seem too shabby for a rookie who is not primarily a WR.

Edelman's receiving skill set more or less duplicates Welker's, and he's certainly shown some significant raw talent as a slot receiver - in 2009, subbing for an injured Welker in a few games, and in the 2010 pre-season. Pretty good, ATC, for a guy who didn't play the position in college. Although Edelman didn't make much of his few WR opportunities in the 2010 regular season, OTOH he developed into the best PR the Pats have had since Troy Brown's heyday in 2002, posting stats that were second only to Hester's in 2010.

Anyway, back to the question of whether or not WR is a "big need", it kinda depends not only on how the coaches view the progress of Tate and Edelman (who are clearly contributing well enough, at least in other ways), but especially Price. But it also depends on how one views what's lacking in the passing game, which is, in turn, dependent on what's lacking in the running game. Both BGE and Woodhead seem significantly dependent on having extra blockers in the set (and, thus, fewer WRs) in order to consistently gain decent (or any) ground yards. This greatly constrained the effectiveness of play-action in 2010, making coverages easier for the opposing defense and making it more difficult for guys like Tate to get open in the first place. An RB who can consistently get good yardage without extra blockers would enhance play-action and allow for more frequent 3 and 4 WR sets while still requiring defenses to honor the run. At that point, perhaps Tate is all the deep threat that Brady can actually use, though it would be nice to have a second one to keep defenses guessing that much more, especially if such a new guy can run an extensive route tree that includes over the middle, underneath and, specifically intermediate sideline routes.

It's this last part that the passing game appeared to be lacking most (IMHO) in 2010 - the ability to stretch the field horizontally. Welker, Edelman, Hernandez, Gronk and Woodhead are most consistently successful working between the numbers in the short and intermediate ranges. The only pass-catcher we had who was consistently successful working outside the numbers was Branch. As you correctly point out, he's aging and somewhat fragile. Setting aside shot-in-the-dark speculation as to what Price may be able to do in 2011, Hernandez, Tate and Edelman could expand their route tress as they develop and ameliorate this issue to a great extent. However, here again, a new guy who can run good routes, reliably get open and catch, especially on sideline patterns, could be a big help, even if he's not particularly a deep threat.

Now, I don't know very much about Greg Little, but I can say that, from what I've seen of them, Hankerson and Austin Pettis are pretty decent and "smart" route-runners with good hands who have both worked the sidelines pretty well (and Hankerson's speed makes him a deep threat as well). If we're going for another WR this draft, those would be my choices.
 
Depends on what you consider a "big need".

I agree that Price is a cipher at this point, but I'd question the claims that "Tate has had enough time" and that he hasn't shown anything. Last year was effectively Tate's rookie season after nearly two years out of football due to injury. Yes, I'm aware that he was active for three weeks (two games) in 2009, but he was legally barred from even practicing with the team other than that, so it seems pretty harsh to consider 2010 his second year.

In any case, I believe that Tate was drafted primarily as a KR and only secondarily as a WR, which corresponds to what he did in college. In 2010, he was the best KR we've had during the BB Era, posting stats that rivaled what Hester posted as a KR in HIS rookie season, though that's not entirely a fair comparison since Hester's forte is returning punts more than kicks.

Tate didn't see a lot of opportunities as a WR in 2010 (neither did Edelman), I think partly because we were in 2-TE sets a lot, which were unfortunately necessary for us to be able to run the ball (the source of a lot of our offensive problems in the two losses to the Jets, as well as in some of the close victories earlier in the season). This circumstance contributed to keeping both Tate and Edelman very low on the pass-target depth chart behind Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Moss/Branch and even Faulk/Woodhead, so Tate didn't see a lot of target opportunities to begin with, although, admittedly, this was also partly due to his route-running and separation skills still being under development (rookie). Even so, he posted an 18+ YPC and a catch rate (48%) that was equal to or better than that of Fitzgerald, DeSean Jackson, Brandon Lloyd, Michael Floyd and several other veteran WRs who carried a similar YPC in 2010. Given that accuracy on the long ball hasn't exactly been Brady's strong suit since returning from his injury, that doesn't seem too shabby for a rookie who is not primarily a WR.

Edelman's receiving skill set more or less duplicates Welker's, and he's certainly shown some significant raw talent as a slot receiver - in 2009, subbing for an injured Welker in a few games, and in the 2010 pre-season. Pretty good, ATC, for a guy who didn't play the position in college. Although Edelman didn't make much of his few WR opportunities in the 2010 regular season, OTOH he developed into the best PR the Pats have had since Troy Brown's heyday in 2002, posting stats that were second only to Hester's in 2010.

Anyway, back to the question of whether or not WR is a "big need", it kinda depends not only on how the coaches view the progress of Tate and Edelman (who are clearly contributing well enough, at least in other ways), but especially Price. But it also depends on how one views what's lacking in the passing game, which is, in turn, dependent on what's lacking in the running game. Both BGE and Woodhead seem significantly dependent on having extra blockers in the set (and, thus, fewer WRs) in order to consistently gain decent (or any) ground yards. This greatly constrained the effectiveness of play-action in 2010, making coverages easier for the opposing defense and making it more difficult for guys like Tate to get open in the first place. An RB who can consistently get good yardage without extra blockers would enhance play-action and allow for more frequent 3 and 4 WR sets while still requiring defenses to honor the run. At that point, perhaps Tate is all the deep threat that Brady can actually use, though it would be nice to have a second one to keep defenses guessing that much more, especially if such a new guy can run an extensive route tree that includes over the middle, underneath and, specifically intermediate sideline routes.

It's this last part that the passing game appeared to be lacking most (IMHO) in 2010 - the ability to stretch the field horizontally. Welker, Edelman, Hernandez, Gronk and Woodhead are most consistently successful working between the numbers in the short and intermediate ranges. The only pass-catcher we had who was consistently successful working outside the numbers was Branch. As you correctly point out, he's aging and somewhat fragile. Setting aside shot-in-the-dark speculation as to what Price may be able to do in 2011, Hernandez, Tate and Edelman could expand their route tress as they develop and ameliorate this issue to a great extent. However, here again, a new guy who can run good routes, reliably get open and catch, especially on sideline patterns, could be a big help, even if he's not particularly a deep threat.

Now, I don't know very much about Greg Little, but I can say that, from what I've seen of them, Hankerson and Austin Pettis are pretty decent and "smart" route-runners with good hands who have both worked the sidelines pretty well (and Hankerson's speed makes him a deep threat as well). If we're going for another WR this draft, those would be my choices.

very well put. All i will add is tate hasn't "had his chance" last year was his 1st full season. Edelman has started 3 games in his career (e.g when welker wasn't there) he has gone for almost 100 yards each time, it just so happens the guy taking his possition is the best slot reciever in the game.

If people want to evaluate our other wr's go back and watch the dolphins tape... price and edelman looked very good. I think a wr should be picked...but not before the 3rd/4th round like always
 
very well put. All i will add is tate hasn't "had his chance" last year was his 1st full season. Edelman has started 3 games in his career (e.g when welker wasn't there) he has gone for almost 100 yards each time, it just so happens the guy taking his possition is the best slot reciever in the game.

If people want to evaluate our other wr's go back and watch the dolphins tape... price and edelman looked very good. I think a wr should be picked...but not before the 3rd/4th round like always

Thanks. I agree that while it might be nice to pick up Hankerson in the 2nd (who I'd prefer over anyone else who's been projected in the 2nd), Pettis - who's projected in the late 3rd/early 4th - could be a good value for us. He's not my idea of a "stud" by any means, he just appears to be very competent and reliable at covering our "horizontal deficiency."
 
I know most people don't think WR is a big need, but this is a show me league and I haven't seen much from Taylor Price or Brandon Tate. Tate has had enough time to show something, but he hasn't. Price is a project and probably needs another year. Edelman is a tease, he looks amazing at times, but just didn't produce last year for some reason. Deion Branch is a decent WR who isn't durable and getting old for a WR. Welker is a slot WR, while he keeps the chains moving, we need is a Stud WR on the outside.

Outside of AJ Green and Julio Jones, I think Little is the best WR in the draft. I've seen him projected as late as the 5th round, but I think he will go earlier then that. Anyone on board with this or am I crazy?
Allow me to echo the others above, you are devaluing Tate, Edelman, and Price prematurely.

Where you look for showmanship, I see yet to be exploited potential. Patience is needed when developing talent in the NE system - it is what it is and I see no worries with the young receivers that a few dozen practice sessions with Tommy and the jugs won't improve. Drafting another WR project in the mid-rounds seems sufficient.
 
As for Little, I like his talent. He was overrated for a while, but now seems to be underrated. He might well go in the fifth due to his character issues, which are Legion.

Small school or no, I'm hoping for Edmund Gates sometime on day 2.

Incidently, I'm so confident in Edelman, I have no problem with BB trading Welker if he can get a first rounder for him or package him for Fitzgerald.
 
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I'd take him in the 3rd if he is there. NE is one place that he has a chance to be good, as long as he listens and learns from the coaches and the veterans.
 
Edelmen was underused.

Price wasn't seen

Tate was a drop machine.
 
I have Little on my 3a list, though I think he'll be gone somewhere in the second half of the second. For now I will assume Branch and Welker are gone in a year that leaves Edelman, Price and Tate. Not enough for me, I'd like a WR with upside this year.
 
As for Little, I like his talent. He was overrated for a while, but now seems to be underrated. He might well go in the fifth due to his character issues, which are Legion.

Small school or no, I'm hoping for Edmund Gates sometime on day 2.

Incidently, I'm so confident in Edelman, I have no problem with BB trading Welker if he can get a first rounder for him or package him for Fitzgerald.

So sad that i agree that Welker might be gone and Edelman might be his successor
 
I know most people don't think WR is a big need, but this is a show me league and I haven't seen much from Taylor Price or Brandon Tate. Tate has had enough time to show something, but he hasn't. Price is a project and probably needs another year. Edelman is a tease, he looks amazing at times, but just didn't produce last year for some reason. Deion Branch is a decent WR who isn't durable and getting old for a WR. Welker is a slot WR, while he keeps the chains moving, we need is a Stud WR on the outside.

Outside of AJ Green and Julio Jones, I think Little is the best WR in the draft. I've seen him projected as late as the 5th round, but I think he will go earlier then that. Anyone on board with this or am I crazy?

I don't see Pats taking a big receiver like Little. A Hernandez is better fit for Pats and they already have him. If they pick a receiver, look for someone another smurf to replace Branch.
 
Small school or no, I'm hoping for Edmund Gates sometime on day 2.

This is what ESPN's scouring report has for Gates under the Intangibles section:

Over-aged prospect. Cousin is Bernard Scott (Bengals). Character baggage needs to be closely monitored. Comes from a tough upbringing. Wants to do the right but needs guidance and structure. When Edmund was six years old his father, Edward, began what would be an 18-year prison sentence for murder. Edmund was kicked off the Tyler JUCO basketball team before transferring to Abilene Christian to play football. He says 'I was out of shape' and that 'family issues' also affected his play in 2010.

And here's what they say for Little:


No question about overall passion for the game but can let emotions get the best of him on the field. There are concerns regarding his maturity level, attitude and work ethic. Was ruled ineligible for 2010 season for violating NCAA rules (agent benefits).


Based on that, I would not expect either guy to be on the Pats' board. And I certainly don't see how they would be improvements over Price, Tate, and Edelman.
 
I have Little on my 3a list, though I think he'll be gone somewhere in the second half of the second. For now I will assume Branch and Welker are gone in a year that leaves Edelman, Price and Tate. Not enough for me, I'd like a WR with upside this year.

Dont forget Julio Jones. There is a chance he slides and we could trade up! /unlikelyrant
 
Edelmen was underused.

Price wasn't seen

Tate was a drop machine.

In that case, so were Fitzgerald, DeSeasn Jackson, Brandon Lloyd, Michael Floyd and several other top "deep threats" in the NFL last season since thei catch rates were the same as or worse than Tate's.
 
I don't see Pats taking a big receiver like Little. A Hernandez is better fit for Pats and they already have him. If they pick a receiver, look for someone another smurf to replace Branch.

Why a "smurf" necessarily? I mean, if we can get a taller guy who can run the same routes, get open and catch?
 
Dont forget Julio Jones. There is a chance he slides and we could trade up! /unlikelyrant
My dream scenario is trading 1a and 3a to get Julio but I realize that's an extreme longshot. I'd love to get Julio.
 
In that case, so were Fitzgerald, DeSeasn Jackson, Brandon Lloyd, Michael Floyd and several other top "deep threats" in the NFL last season since thei catch rates were the same as or worse than Tate's.

True. They are. But each case goes on an individual base. Desean for example had Mike Vick tossing him the ball. Vick was steadily consistent and more often than not got him the ball in his vicinity. BUT desean has concentration issues and lacks looking the ball into his hands instead going for the big play every chance.

Fitz on the other hand had garbage throwing him the ball. I wouldnt be surprised if Larry had led the league because of how terrible his offensive line and Qb was.

Tate, in our own view, had the ball hit him in the numbers how many times last season? And yet he still consistently dropped the ball.
 
I might add that it often takes a year to fully be integrated into the patriot system. So, if we look to 2012, the normal way of looking at the draft, we definitely need a WR.

Give me Jordan, Watkins and Reed in the top 40, and I am certainly looking at WR at 60 and beyond.

The question is who is a value at the various slots. I see Little and Hankerson as value at 60 and 74.

I have Little on my 3a list, though I think he'll be gone somewhere in the second half of the second. For now I will assume Branch and Welker are gone in a year that leaves Edelman, Price and Tate. Not enough for me, I'd like a WR with upside this year.
 
True. They are. But each case goes on an individual base. Desean for example had Mike Vick tossing him the ball. Vick was steadily consistent and more often than not got him the ball in his vicinity. BUT desean has concentration issues and lacks looking the ball into his hands instead going for the big play every chance.

Fitz on the other hand had garbage throwing him the ball. I wouldnt be surprised if Larry had led the league because of how terrible his offensive line and Qb was.

Tate, in our own view, had the ball hit him in the numbers how many times last season? And yet he still consistently dropped the ball.

Well, y'know, catch rate is catch rate. For guys who get most of their targets going after deep balls, 45%-55% is about average, year after year. Those are difficult throws (no matter who's throwing) and difficult catches.

Okay, so it's easy to claim that Tate's 24 incompletions were mostly drops because at least we saw nearly all of them. They weren't all drops by any means, but whatever. It's also easy to make excuses for Fitzgerald, but what percentage of the passes directed his way did we actually see? How do we know what percentage of HIS misses were drops compared to how many were uncatchable either because the QB missed (as Brady did frequently) or because Fitzgerald got himself slightly out of position?

The point being that, in spite of "all those drops" (supposedly), rookie Tate STILL CAUGHT at the average rate for a veteran deep threat. So, what you're really saying is that if Tate reduces his number of drops on deep routes, his catch percentage would be PHENOMENAL for a deep threat.
 
Well, y'know, catch rate is catch rate. For guys who get most of their targets going after deep balls, 45%-55% is about average, year after year. Those are difficult throws (no matter who's throwing) and difficult catches.

Okay, so it's easy to claim that Tate's 24 incompletions were mostly drops because at least we saw nearly all of them. They weren't all drops by any means, but whatever. It's also easy to make excuses for Fitzgerald, but what percentage of the passes directed his way did we actually see? How do we know what percentage of HIS misses were drops compared to how many were uncatchable either because the QB missed (as Brady did frequently) or because Fitzgerald got himself slightly out of position?

The point being that, in spite of "all those drops" (supposedly), rookie Tate STILL CAUGHT at the average rate for a veteran deep threat. So, what you're really saying is that if Tate reduces his number of drops on deep routes, his catch percentage would be PHENOMENAL for a deep threat.

I dont even want him to significantly improve his drops. He drops short passes too which is sofrustrating to watch. I want him to get on the jugs machine and just catch the damn ball.
 
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