Win, FAIL, or Meh: James Christensen, 3/7/14

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I see Buccanon just as you do. Looks exciting, makes splash plays and is perfectly built but he is limited as a safety. That's not to say that he doesn't make some really good plays but, as you said, Ward is constantly around the ball.

Spot on analysis Hercules.

Mutual admiration society Manx! Ward is just a ballplayer to me, insanely productive, the best player on what has been two excellent teams the last two years, and solid solid solid. Doesn't overcommit, doesn't chase the flashy play and still ends up making them. Bucannon could end up a nice player but it will take a few years of breaking bad habits, Ward can come in and play right away with his skill set and intelligence.

 

[captain stone]

I don't know if Ward is worth a 1st round pick or not, but it's definitely not a huge reach. And for those deriding him as a "midget", for comparison:

- Jimmy Ward: 5' 10 6/8" 193#; 4.47 40 (unofficial), 38" VJ, 10'6" BJ; 3-cone and short shuttle not yet reported.

- Brandon Meriweather: 5' 10 5/8" 195#; 4.47 40, 1.53 10-split, 4.33 SS, 7.06 3C; 35" VJ, 9'3" BJ.

If Ward ends up being a more disciplined version of Meriweather, he would be a darn good complement to McCourty and well worth a 1st round pick. I certainly wouldn't rule it out at this early juncture.

But at least in 2007 there was a need at FS to replace Eugene Wilson. There is no such need
in 2014 for another FS. And how would Ward complement McCourty?

 

[Off The Grid]

Right. It's not as bad as I can imagine, it's just the worst I've seen.

Re. Robinson

Join me!!!

1 ~ Love the emboldened part!!

2 ~ Love the Persistence ~ and the style of the Persistence ~ about Robinson!!

 

[patfanken]

He's certainly worthy of a first rounder.

Max, is that your opinion, or a fact. Because you stated it as a "fact"

At any rate, my comment was less about Ward's ability but questioning his seemingly redundant value, compared to other areas. As the captain noted, he seems to have a lot same qualities of McCourty. Is that necessary when he already have 3 developmental players currently on the roster that play the same spot you want Ward to play, plus AWilson (assuming that's Ward's best position)

Wouldn't the pick be better used to start to rebuild the DL. I know Siliga, CJones, and Vilano did yeoman's work at DT this season, but they are what they are, young solid back ups who were someone's cast offs and an UDFA. We have no idea about Kelly and Armstead, so its imperative that we get one who can make an immediate impact. There should be one or 2 around at 29, who will give us more value that "Jimmy" Ward.

Wasn't one of our goals this season to get more physical and bigger?

 

[manxman2601]

Max, is that your opinion, or a fact. Because you stated it as a "fact"

At any rate, my comment was less about Ward's ability but questioning his seemingly redundant value, compared to other areas. As the captain noted, he seems to have a lot same qualities of McCourty. Is that necessary when he already have 3 developmental players currently on the roster that play the same spot you want Ward to play, plus AWilson (assuming that's Ward's best position)

Wouldn't the pick be better used to start to rebuild the DL. I know Siliga, CJones, and Vilano did yeoman's work at DT this season, but they are what they are, young solid back ups who were someone's cast offs and an UDFA. We have no idea about Kelly and Armstead, so its imperative that we get one who can make an immediate impact. There should be one or 2 around at 29, who will give us more value that "Jimmy" Ward.

Wasn't one of our goals this season to get more physical and bigger?

Assessing a player's worth is wholly subjective so is always "opinion".

1. Ward is quite capable of playing alongside McCourty. He's the most instinctive of the safeties in the draft at playing the run and the best tackler of all the safeties that I've seen in this draft. He's more than capable of supporting against the run as he is running with a receiver in coverage or dropping back into zone coverage. He's a slightly less athletic Earl Thomas. Is he a two down run-stuffing safety or a BMW clone? No, thank goodness, he's way way better than that.

2. The question as to whether we need a safety or a DT or a TE for that matter is an entirely different matter. I didn't say that we should draft Ward ahead of a Hageman or an ASJ or a Shazier for that matter. I merely said that a) he's not a reach in the first round and, as the best safety in this draft, he most assuredly is not and b) that if we are looking at a safety then Ward is the best bet, although Kyle fuller intrigues me as a safety prospect too.

If you don't think that Ward is the best value at #29 then that's one thing but that doesn't mean he's "DEFINITELY" a reach there.

Ward is one of the best players available at pick 29 and well worth it but that doesn't necessarily mean he's my first choice for that pick. I have Hageman, Tuitt, ASJ and Kyle Fuller ahead of him. That doesn't mean that I won't be thrilled if we don't get him because we've significantly upgraded the safety position if we do.

Finally, I said that we should get faster on defense, not more physical.

 

[everlong]

1. Ward is quite capable of playing alongside McCourty. He's the most instinctive of the safeties in the draft at playing the run and the best tackler of all the safeties that I've seen in this draft.

I really like Ward as well. I think I would rather see a trade down into the top of the second to pick up another pick in the third in this deep draft but as I said in another thread I'm not going to quibble over 15 draft slots when the measure in talent is so slim. If they traded down from 29 and then up from 62 using their own pick in the 3rd and ended up with something like pick 42, 49 and 74 and took ASJ, Ward and Christian Jones I'd be pretty happy.

 

[mayoclinic]

I just want to go on record stating that I think it's a perfect example of the law of Karma that Manx, who spent months arguing that safety wasn't a pressing need in this offseason, now is vigorously defending the idea of taking a safety at 29. Perfect.

Of course, the fact that he was quite possibly right both times is irrelevant. It's a beautiful thing.

 

[VJCPatriot]

But at least in 2007 there was a need at FS to replace Eugene Wilson. There is no such need
in 2014 for another FS. And how would Ward complement McCourty?

I think in today's NFL, coverage is paramount. Size-wise, Ward reminds me of Louis Delmas. Rewind back 5 years, would you rather have the coverage skill of Delmas or the occasional hard-hitting of Patrick Chung? I would have picked Delmas.

Of course everyone wants a Kam Chancellor. But they are hard to find, is there one in this draft. The Pats play left/right safeties anyways, not strong/free. So maybe it's just better to get two safeties that can cover an equal range in today's NFL.

My main concern with Ward is the medicals. He has to get a screw inserted into his foot right? What's that about?

Am I completely sold on Jimmie Ward in the 1st? not yet, I need to find out more. But I'm not throwing a brick through the TV either if BB makes that pick.

Consider Wards college production as well over his last 3 seasons:
100 tackles 1 int
104 tackles 3 int
95 tackles 7 int

It looks like he is pretty comfortable taking down the ballcarrier so if he's the 'physical' complement to McCourty, I'd say yeah, this guy seems more physical to me.

Highlight video anyone?
Big hit: Jimmie Ward big hit - YouTube
Interception: Jimmie Ward's Sick One-Handed Interception - ESPN Video - ESPN
All around highlights from Jr. season: Jimmie Ward Best Highlights # 15 - SS - Junior - NIU - Video By: Nova Nickk - YouTube

Wasn't one of our goals this season to get more physical and bigger?

Watch the videos, PFK. Ward isn't bigger. But he is fast and physical.
I think I'd be more comfortable with Ward across from McCourty than Duron or Wilson.
Now if Calvin Pryor and Ward are both there... then that's a tougher question imo.

I think Ebron and Amaro will be gone by our pick. I also feel that ASJ is still a 2nd round guy imo.
Now if Tuitt is there at #29, hmm I'd have to strongly consider, but is he really a 1st round talent or is he an early 2nd? Trading Mallet to Houston might help a lot with this year's draft. But will it happen? I don't know.

 

[manxman2601]

I just want to go on record stating that I think it's a perfect example of the law of Karma that Manx, who spent months arguing that safety wasn't a pressing need in this offseason, now is vigorously defending the idea of taking a safety at 29. Perfect.

Of course, the fact that he was quite possibly right both times is irrelevant. It's a beautiful thing.

Hey! It wasn't me that cut Gregory. Just responding to the zeitgeist.

 

[mayoclinic]

I think in today's NFL, coverage is paramount. Size-wise, Ward reminds me of Louis Delmas. Rewind back 5 years, would you rather have the coverage skill of Delmas or the occasional hard-hitting of Patrick Chung? I would have picked Delmas.

Of course everyone wants a Kam Chancellor. But they are hard to find, is there one in this draft. The Pats play left/right safeties anyways, not strong/free. So maybe it's just better to get two safeties that can cover an equal range in today's NFL.

My main concern with Ward is the medicals. He has to get a screw inserted into his foot right? What's that about?

Am I completely sold on Jimmie Ward in the 1st? not yet, I need to find out more. But I'm not throwing a brick through the TV either if BB makes that pick.

Consider Wards college production as well over his last 3 seasons:
100 tackles 1 int
104 tackles 3 int
95 tackles 7 int

It looks like he is pretty comfortable taking down the ballcarrier so if he's the 'physical' complement to McCourty, I'd say yeah, this guy seems more physical to me.

Highlight video anyone?
Big hit: Jimmie Ward big hit - YouTube
Interception: Jimmie Ward's Sick One-Handed Interception - ESPN Video - ESPN
All around highlights from Jr. season: Jimmie Ward Best Highlights # 15 - SS - Junior - NIU - Video By: Nova Nickk - YouTube

"In today's NFL, coverage is paramount. Beautiful. I'd actually say that the combination of coverage and pressure is paramount. If you can do both, you're going to have a very good shot at a having a top defense.

I've compared Ward to Louis Delmas on another thread. In 2009, Delmas was a board favorite as a safety to pair opposite Brandon Meriweather, and no one seemed to feel that their respective skill sets were too redundant. I was one of those advocating for Delmas, and I think that he would have been a better fit than Patrick Chung. He's also been compared to former Houston safety Glover Quin, who's loss in FA last year had a big effect on Houston's secondary play. Quin was very effective as a SS despite similar size to Ward.

Ward's a tad smaller than I would like, but I think the idea of having a smart SS with exceptional coverage ability (including the ability to play man coverage) would appeal to BB. As CBS Sports notes in their profile on Ward, "what separates Ward from other undersized prospects is his versatile skill set and training to play any position in the defensive backfield." Ward is very physical for his size (as were Meriweather and Delmas). The Pats also don't play a true SS/FS scheme but rather a left and right safety, so Ward's coverage ability would be more of a natural schematic fit than going with a "Kam Chancellor" type of SS.

I'd take Antone Exum personally, but I don't think Ward would be a bad pick at all. That wasn't my concern with this particular draft.

 

[mayoclinic]

Another guy who might be comparable to Jimmy Ward in some ways is San Diego S Eric Weddle. Weddle's a tad bigger (5' 11 1/2" 203# coming out), but had similar FS/SS/CB versatility coming out of Utah in 2007. He went high 2nd round, but in retrospect would have been well worth the Pats taking in the late 1st instead of Brandon Meriweather.

 

[manxman2601]

Another guy who might be comparable to Jimmy Ward in some ways is San Diego S Eric Weddle. Weddle's a tad bigger (5' 11 1/2" 203# coming out), but had similar FS/SS/CB versatility coming out of Utah in 2007. He went high 2nd round, but in retrospect would have been well worth the Pats taking in the late 1st instead of Brandon Meriweather.

6.78 3 cone and a 1.43 10 yard split really stand out when you look at Weddle's numbers. I think i'd have been very interested in him if I'd been around then.

 

[doesntmatter1]

Merriweather was actually pretty good his first two years here. Then he started to freelance and now he has completely lost the ability to tackle. Actually no one in the Redskins secondary can tackle. Its like they got their hands on every ballhawk they could(amerson and rambo had a crazy amount of picks in college) and I am actually dumbfounded on how its possible they could suck so bad last year. And now they think Talib is going to save them. What they need is a new D coordinator.

I got really off course there and sorry for the rant.

 

[mayoclinic]

6.78 3 cone and a 1.43 10 yard split really stand out when you look at Weddle's numbers. I think i'd have been very interested in him if I'd been around then.

At the time, he was considered a 2nd round pick, and it was a bit of a surprise when San Diego took him at #37. He was considered a "perfect Patriot" in terms of his versatility and character, but not as pure a talent as the first tier of safety prospects. I think that today we'd view him very differently.

 

[Off The Grid]

I think in today's NFL, coverage is paramount.

I think that in the NFL, whether you're talking 2014 or 1923, Pressure is Paramount.

I've been reading a lot, lately, about how a great Secondary can make a weak Pass Rush look decent.

While technically true, anyone who focuses on that has their priorities @$$-backwards.

1 ~ A great Secondary can make a weak Pass Rush look decent.

2 ~ But a great Pass Rush can make a weak Secondary look like Gods.

If you meant your comment within the confines of evaluating Rovers & CenterFielders, however ~ "Strong Safeties" & "Free Safeties, to you Earthlings ~ then I concur!!

 

[mayoclinic]

I think in today's NFL, coverage is paramount.

I think that in the NFL, whether you're talking 2014 or 1923, Pressure is Paramount.

I'd actually say that the combination of coverage and pressure is paramount. If you can do both, you're going to have a very good shot at a having a top defense.

As I said, if you're going to have a top defense, you have to be able to do both well. Without pressure, even a top secondary will get exposed against a good offense. Without good coverage ability, it will take extraordinary pressure to be effective. If you can do those 2 things well, you're going to have a very, very good defense.

But in general, a player in the secondary who can't cover is pretty limited.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Another guy who might be comparable to Jimmy Ward in some ways is San Diego S Eric Weddle. Weddle's a tad bigger (5' 11 1/2" 203# coming out), but had similar FS/SS/CB versatility coming out of Utah in 2007. He went high 2nd round, but in retrospect would have been well worth the Pats taking in the late 1st instead of Brandon Meriweather.

I loved Weddle coming out of college, he was every bit as good as Michael Griffin to me and better than Landry, Reggie Nelson and Meriweather. I rooted for Meriweather to succeed but it was definitely a bummer that the versatile Weddle was not coming to Foxboro.

I like the comparison Mayo, Ward is a much better coverage guy than a guy like Bucannon and he can still tackle very consistently. I'd love for them to trade down, get some extra picks in rounds 2/3 and end up with Ward.

 

[Off The Grid]

As I said, if you're going to have a top defense, you have to be able to do both well. Without pressure, even a top secondary will get exposed against a good offense. Without good coverage ability, it will take extraordinary pressure to be effective. If you can do those 2 things well, you're going to have a very, very good defense.

But in general, a player in the secondary who can't cover is pretty limited.

Nice "recap" of your very recent previous post.

 

[mayoclinic]

Nice "recap" of your very recent previous post.

Well, at least it attempted to be constructive, unlike some. :bricks:

 

[mgteich]

a major WIN