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Wilfork wants Seymour money

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I don't know if Brace will be better than Wilfork, he might,

Hardly worth talking about.

Since anyone might be better than anyone else, let's not actually discuss how hard it is to fill the NT position in a 3-4.

Let's overlook the fact that long in the tooth guys like Ted Washington and Keith Traylor get snapped right up when available because there are so few top NTs.

Let's forget the fact that tons of 4-3 tackles "project" as NTs in the pros, but precious few actually become quality starters.

There are lots of NTs in their prime who have taken on the task of playing the most demanding, least rewarding position in football.

And most of them are probably also quick as hell with good technique and are available to be acquired.

I'm sure all the BB protege's around the league have top NT's, since they are everywhere, and won't be sniffing around Wilfork if we let him become available.

Really, it's easy to fill the NT position. Really, if I say it, it must be true.
 
But BB drafted Brace for a reason.

Two reasons. They've been looking for a backup NT for years. If he actually is effective in spots, he's great trade bait because most 3-4 teams are looking to upgrade the NT spot.

Most are experimenting unsuccessfully like we were when BB said "technique" was enough and Rick Lyle, Jarvis Green or Klecko would do. Of course, when he got Ted Washington instead, it took him about two seconds to pull the trigger.

Might also be a backup plan, but not one he wants to have to fall back on, I guarantee.
 
A 3-4 NT is very hard to get. Wilfork could be injured. Sometimes he could use a rest for series. It is good to have two NT's in short yardage situations.

There are many reasons to draft a NT other than expecting him to replace Wilfork and then again look for a backup.
 
Yes, they always come back. Wilfork is in a similar position to Seymour and Branch. The team can wait Wilfork out. However, that is usually not what Belichick does. At very least Wilfork will get a clear message of how much or little the patriots want him. If the patriots want him long-term, he needs to extended before THIS season starts.

He can. But that never happens. They always come back, maybe there's one time I'm forgetting but they always threaten and never do it.


Samuel played out his contract and was Franchised once.
Branch was traded in the same position as Wilfork but we have no idea how it would have played out had the Patriots not traded him.
 
Two reasons. They've been looking for a backup NT for years. If he actually is effective in spots, he's great trade bait because most 3-4 teams are looking to upgrade the NT spot.

This isn't your buddy fantasy football league. Your second reason is moronic. You don't draft players because you think you can develop them into trade bait.

Brace was NOT drafted on the idea that if he is good we can trade him. He was drafted to play nose tackle. As a backup to Wilfork and/or replacement for Wilfork.

Matt Cassel was not drafted on the idea that if he turns out to be good we can convert a 7th round pick to a first day draft pick someday down the road. He was drafted so that if Brady was unable to play he could step in and win football games. Any trade value is pure bonus.

This is not say it is impossible that Brace won't evenually be traded. We might re-sign Wilfork and Brace might be worth more to us as a trade than to keep. But he was not drafted on the idea that if he is good he can be traded later for more value than a high second round draft pick.

BB traded up to get him. He was drafted to play nose tackle for the NEP. BB doesn't trade up to get a player he plans to have sit on the pine.
 
This isn't your buddy fantasy football league. Your second reason is moronic. You don't draft players because you think you can develop them into trade bait.

Brace was NOT drafted on the idea that if he is good we can trade him. He was drafted to play nose tackle. As a backup to Wilfork and/or replacement for Wilfork.

Matt Cassel was not drafted on the idea that if he turns out to be good we can convert a 7th round pick to a first day draft pick someday down the road. He was drafted so that if Brady was unable to play he could step in and win football games. Any trade value is pure bonus.

This is not say it is impossible that Brace won't evenually be traded. We might re-sign Wilfork and Brace might be worth more to us as a trade than to keep. But he was not drafted on the idea that if he is good he can be traded later for more value than a high second round draft pick.

BB traded up to get him. He was drafted to play nose tackle for the NEP. BB doesn't trade up to get a player he plans to have sit on the pine.

I said he was drafted because he might be able to be converted to NT. He has no position flexibility, so there's no other place for him.

If Wilfork absolutely won't sign, (which is possible because NTs are very valuable, in case you haven't heard) he wants to have someone to develop.

He most likely will back up at NT.

Does BB draft defensive linemen regardless of need, just based on value? Yes he does, just about every year.

I don't know why you are mentioning Cassel again, but I'd stop it if you want to be taken at all seriously. We are talking about nose tackle, the hardest position on our team to fill, including QB.
 
The Patriots didn't let Brady go so that Cassel could become the starter. Bad analogy.

One reason for Brace is insurance.

Posters here think you buy insurance, then burn your house down. No, you buy insurance in case your house burns. Pretty big distinction there.

Plus, why are people assuming if Wilfork leaves Brace will step right in at nose tackle? He might take a year or two to even learn the position. Wilfork rotated with a veteran his first year and struggled mightily his second, until he totally changed his approach, I believe.

This is assuming Brace would even make the transition, most don't. Plus he will never have half Wilfork's athletic ability, that was decide by God.
 
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Two reasons. They've been looking for a backup NT for years. If he actually is effective in spots, he's great trade bait because most 3-4 teams are looking to upgrade the NT spot.

Most are experimenting unsuccessfully like we were when BB said "technique" was enough and Rick Lyle, Jarvis Green or Klecko would do. Of course, when he got Ted Washington instead, it took him about two seconds to pull the trigger.

Might also be a backup plan, but not one he wants to have to fall back on, I guarantee.

Seriously? Trade bait? We used a second round pick on Brace. You think BB is hoping he plays well to trade him for what? A first rounder?
 
Seriously? Trade bait? We used a second round pick on Brace. You think BB is hoping he plays well to trade him for what? A first rounder?

Look, he was drafted to

1. backup NT
2. Insurance in case we can't sign Wilfork
3. Because we value defensive Linemen and they have value (especially NTs).

Those are three (3) reasons. Clear enough?

Trade bait was an unfortunate phrase out of about three pages of posts. He isn't worth diddly until he proves he can play nose. Probably wouldn't make it in a 4-3 with his speed.

If we sign Wilfork and Brace plays well enough to warrant interest as a possible starter and a less expensive option to backup Wilfork emerges, yes that's possible the Pats aren't paying starter money for two NTs.

Is it plan A, B or C? No, it's about plan Z.

Let's sign Wilfork and see if Brace can get a cup of coffee as a NT first before worrying about all that stuff. Sheesh!
 
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Or maybe two second round picks?

You know you're losing when you have to quote the same phrase over and over. Look two posts up, I'm not going to repeat myself.

Trade bait was wrong. Substitute value, if he becomes starter quality at NT, which is hardly guaranteed.
 
Sad to see Mike Reiss predict in his chat today at Boston.com, that his best guess is that neither Wilfork nor Seymour will return after this season.
 
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Sad to see Mike Reiss predict in his chat today at Boston.com, that his best guess is that neither Wilfork nor Seymour will return after this season.
NOT sure it was really a prediction..maybe stretched into a gut feeling...BUT..I don't see that as a prediction...possibility?? I think that might be closer..If it's cloudy...as he said..I really think that says a lot...

[Comment From Peter]
Mike who ends up wit hthe patriots next year Seymore or wilfork as I do not see both being here
12:16 Mike Reiss: As I look into my crystal ball, it's very cloudy Peter. My first instinct, to be honest, was neither player. But forced to pick one, I'd reluctantly go with Wilfork.
 
Sad to see Mike Reiss predict in his chat today at Boston.com, that his best guess is that neither Wilfork nor Seymour will return after this season.

The defense will be weaker losing just one of them, lose both n the defense will suck.
 
Tom Curran said tonight on Comcast sports tonight that " I would not say with absolute certainty that both Wilfork and Seymour will both be gone after this season. " Curran further speculated that Wilfork is looking for 7yr/ 70 million or 8 year/ 80 million with $30 to $38 million guaranteed.
 
Tom Curran said tonight on Comcast sports tonight that " I would not say with absolute certainty that both Wilfork and Seymour will both be gone after this season. " Curran further speculated that Wilfork is looking for 7yr/ 70 million or 8 year/ 80 million with $30 to $38 million guaranteed.
If that is what Wilfork thinks is Seymour money...it will not happen..plain simple THAT is a BIT too high...and also unreasonable. It MAY be a good starting point...ending in a more reasonable 8 million..but 10?? No way. Did The say much else about the Pats??
 
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Tom Curran said tonight on Comcast sports tonight that " I would not say with absolute certainty that both Wilfork and Seymour will both be gone after this season. " Curran further speculated that Wilfork is looking for 7yr/ 70 million or 8 year/ 80 million with $30 to $38 million guaranteed.

If Wilfork is asking for that, he needs to be drug tested immediately.
 
I didn't know 7 year contract were allowed under the current CBA. In any case, 7 yr 70 million, with $30M-$38M guaranteed as a starting price from Wilfork is not terrible to me. I think that 4 years $32M is reasonable. A fifth year option and bonus and the last three years $38M is a bit much, but that is where Wilfork is rumored by Curran to be starting. Any final contract wold likely be lower.

Tom Curran said tonight on Comcast sports tonight that " I would not say with absolute certainty that both Wilfork and Seymour will both be gone after this season. " Curran further speculated that Wilfork is looking for 7yr/ 70 million or 8 year/ 80 million with $30 to $38 million guaranteed.
 
Tom Curran said tonight on Comcast sports tonight that " I would not say with absolute certainty that both Wilfork and Seymour will both be gone after this season. " Curran further speculated that Wilfork is looking for 7yr/ 70 million or 8 year/ 80 million with $30 to $38 million guaranteed.

Considering BB puts a high premium on talented DL Id be shocked if both were lost, but also would be pleasantly surprised of both were retained. I think Wilfork stays and Seymour is the odd man out. But who knows will just have to wait and see.
 
I didn't know 7 year contract were allowed under the current CBA. In any case, 7 yr 70 million, with $30M-$38M guaranteed as a starting price from Wilfork is not terrible to me. I think that 4 years $32M is reasonable. A fifth year option and bonus and the last three years $38M is a bit much, but that is where Wilfork is rumored by Curran to be starting. Any final contract wold likely be lower.


If Curren said speculated rather than heard then he's just guessing and that's never been his strong suit. Even less so with this team since he went national.

As for the CBA it has never limited the length of contracts, just the length of available amortization years. They are currently capped at 5.

Limits on contract construction as well as the potential for an uncapped year and all the poison pills that deeper analysis would tend to indicate as favoring owners heading into 2010 (short term control options such as two transition or one franchise and one transition tag (as well as 6 year RFA's), no cap floor as well as ceiling, restrictions on signing FA by playoff teams, cash flow concerns on the eve of a potential work stoppage tempering the contract climate...

If guys don't take what's offered they potentially face losing the ability to make up for perceived losses. If there are no games in 2011, Wilfork and Seymour could find themselves shopping their services as FA in 2012 when both will be on the wrong side of 30 and could be coming off a season of inactivity. In Wilfork's case that is why he can't hold out into the season, and he seems to know it. His fines and loss of salary and a recapture of a portion of his signing bonus would likely net Vince $0 if he showed up in week 10. Fines alone for skipping mandatory OTA's and camp under the CBA negotiated in 2006 now add up to over half a million... And BB has already proven he will not tolerate the distraction so worst case scenario Wilfork is on the block in September and owes NE $500K+ from his new deal elsewhere. And we all know how well that scenario worked out for Meion, who isn't even in the discussion of top 20 #1 WR's anymore and who is likely playing for his football life and any semblance of the remainder of that fat contract he signed this season. Wilfork has been surrounded by top tier talent and coached by the defensive genius of his generation here. It's anyone's guess how he'd fare in an alternate universe like the one Branch found himself inhabiting...

I think they made a mistake when they did what they felt they had to do to get Seymour in back in 2005. I understand why they did it with a possibility to threepeat staring them in the face. But it didn't work out and probably was wishful thinking from the get go. Team was beat up and too dead tired to continue overachieving. Back to Back 20 game seasons and all... And if you're going to do whatever it takes, do it pre-emptively on your own initiative as opposed to allowing a player to force your hand in public. My one critique on this regime has been with the exception of Brady they don't seem inclined to get to know their players true intentions and therefore they appear to continue to be disappointed in and blindsided by them. I appreciate they don't want to coddle them, but you can still figure them out. Like the aging veteran, move on from them a year early if that's what it takes to avoid being a year late. Instead of focusing on winning a negotiation just give 'em your best offer and if they scoff at it move on.

But the Seymour deal set a dangerous precedent that has now raised it's ugly head in succeeding seasons. The system works it's magic best when guys are either all in or all out and we just move on. That is the real foundation on which it rests. Maybe that's why we haven't won one since 2004. Once you start catering to a select few/talents who are more concerned about personal financial goals than the team goal of winning football championships it gets increasingly difficult to sell the next guy/football player in line steps up mentality as truly functional.

Guys who are all in except where their contract is concerned are not all in. Tommy has tried to tell his teamates that at a certain level you have to look at what another million nets you (including vs. what it nets your team). And if you really need that money there are lots of other ways (a lot less physically demanding as well) to earn it on a winning team in a major market with an ownership that has cultivated tons of marketing and advertising and media business partners. Those deals rightfully go to the guys who are all in. And the first signs a guy isn't truly all in to that is when he starts talking about himself in the third person or blathering about just wanting to be respected...

This recurring drama must really get old for Brady. He's consistently set the tone across the board for how to handle your business on and off the field for 9 seasons. And one selfish player was allowed to set the alternate precedent and create the ultimate bad example. That he is still here is what convinced the others to take their shot. Someone should start asking the holdouts who this team should cut or not have signed or what unit or positional depth they should downgrade to accommodate them financially. Bob has never pocketed a nickle of revenue, it all gets put back into the product within the confines of the cap. So when a player holds out here he's really asking the team to make a choice, choose me over my teamates whose contracts are also coming up or over a deeper and more talented team 1-53 to perform with.
 
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