Player Signing Why did this team sign Tebow?

[Demosthenes]

BB liked Ocho and saw potential. Was he a good receiver with us?

"Lacking physical abilities, arm strength and mobility. Can get pushed down easily. System guy." And he was a 4th string QB.

Does that sound like a viable QB prospect? A guy that that teams would be falling over each other to sign if he was cut?

Jesus, did you just do that /

Seriously ? The entire point of the exercise was questioning "conventional wisdom" of the NFL. You know, how the NFL "rates" player's potential.

To make your argument, you cite a freaking draft profile and then ask if that sounds like a viable QB Prospect ?

That's the freaking point. The FACT is that Brady was indeed a viable QB prospect which Bill recognized once Brady got into camp.

In other words, while the draft profile might have been "accurate" in the details, it was WRONG in the CONCLUSION because it didn't look at the right things.

 

[sb1]

Actually, Young had quite a few issues when he came into the NFL from the USFL. That's one of the reasons why Tampa Bay wanted to get rid of him

Revisionist history.

And the Bucs were a gut wrenching putridly awful football team.

He went to San Fran and there, he learned how to play QB in the NFL. And yes, San Fran was the team that STARTED that era. Ever hear of something called the West Coast Offense ?

No, today's passing era really started in the 2000's with new rules in place to seriously limit how defensive backs could play receivers. Why do you think passing records are falling every year and will continue to do so?

 

[Demosthenes]

LOL, no one will tell you you're wrong about that. But unfortunately you'll forever lose this argument because you brought Young up in a comparison to Tebow's situation - these two are no where near eachother and I don't think - barring a miracle - that's going to change

Couple of points. That I pointed out Steve Young's history doesn't meant that I'm actually making a comparison of the two. What it does is refute the proposition that QBs can't be "developed" after X many years in the league.

It's like when an unnamed poster droned on and on about how having a sub 50% comp % in your first 16 starts meant that you weren't a real NFL QB. Eli Manning says hello on that one.

Basically, it's logic 101/2. Someone makes a statement. You cite an example that contradicts the claim. This demonstrates that the argument is false overall.


On another note, did you happen to watch the Faces of Tebow on NFLN ? Steve Young took part in it and had some rather interesting things to say.

 

[sb1]

Jesus, did you just do that /

Seriously ? The entire point of the exercise was questioning "conventional wisdom" of the NFL. You know, how the NFL "rates" player's potential.

To make your argument, you cite a freaking draft profile and then ask if that sounds like a viable QB Prospect ?

That's the freaking point. The FACT is that Brady was indeed a viable QB prospect which Bill recognized once Brady got into camp.

In other words, while the draft profile might have been "accurate" in the details, it was WRONG in the CONCLUSION because it didn't look at the right things.

I said that draft profile was accurate. Which it was.

There was no magic formula that Bill could use to tell him Brady would become one of the greatest. It's only wrong in the conclusion for those looking at it in hindsight. And round we go....

 

[sb1]

It seems kinda hard to get around the claim of "32 teams missed out on HoF talent, because they evaluate qb's poorly." A similar effect was seen with Russell Wilson last year. He's short, so he won't be a good qb.

So what, if it was hard work that got him there? Bottom line, is that they didn't recognize a player with the talent and work ethic to be one of the best quarterbacks ever.

Right, they didn't. But there is no "sabermetric" or otherwise way they could tell either. The Patriots and BB got lucky. As in powerball lucky.

Tebow's had a rough start to his career. And he'll never be a Brady. But if he can get his head screwed on straight, he has the talent and work ethic to be a legit qb. It's very much a long shot, at this point, I know, but the coaches will decide soon if that's a gamble they want to make.

Yes. If.

 

[Ian]

Couple of points. That I pointed out Steve Young's history doesn't meant that I'm actually making a comparison of the two. What it does is refute the proposition that QBs can't be "developed" after X many years in the league.

It's like when an unnamed poster droned on and on about how having a sub 50% comp % in your first 16 starts meant that you weren't a real NFL QB. Eli Manning says hello on that one.

Basically, it's logic 101/2. Someone makes a statement. You cite an example that contradicts the claim. This demonstrates that the argument is false overall.


On another note, did you happen to watch the Faces of Tebow on NFLN ? Steve Young took part in it and had some rather interesting things to say.

LOL, like I said in the thread before it - and maybe the word "compare" was wrong - but you can't equate (better word?) the scenarios between the two either - which you kind of did by mentioning it to begin with. You were right about Young's path in the NFL, but either way bringing it up in this thread was still a bad idea

 

[sb1]

What it does is refute the proposition that QBs can't be "developed" after X many years in the league.

I'm afraid it does no such thing, and I never made the claim that "no QB's can be developed after X years in the league", especially not ones with Tim's throwing issues. So you didn't compare but you made a projection that is based on wishful thinking and little else at this point.

Young is a poor analogy for reasons I already stated. He played on a really bad Bucs team, and Tim's problems go miles beyond just adjusting to a new league.

And one exception does not make the rule anyway.

 

[Awesomo 3000]

Right, they didn't. But there is no "sabermetric" or otherwise way they could tell either. The Patriots and BB got lucky. As in powerball lucky.

There's no "sabermetric" because people haven't found one yet. Maybe some day, scouts, nfl execs, and fans will find a way to properly evaluate qb's. Until then, teams will be stuck with players like Clausen and Gabbert for far too long. The fact that Brady (and others, to a lesser degree) was overlooked so badly indicates that there are very important factors they didn't account for. Evaluating "arm strength", "physique", and other similar conventions are pathetically insufficient ways to judge a qb.

Yes. If.

Big fat bolded capitalized size 4 "IF"

I still like the guy, of course, but if he keeps playing like he did the last couple weeks, he's cooked. Having potential and talent won't mean anything if he doesn't show enough to even make a roster.

 

[Demosthenes]

Not sure where you read that but it must have been in “NFL Draft for Dummies”. This doesn’t happen; first round picks hold the same significance no matter how many you have.

Not when you trade back twice and still get the guy you wanted with your original pick. There's two schools of thought on it. It's like if you are walking down the street and find a $10 bill. Some will hold on to it tightly and treat it like any other money that they have earned, while others will treat it as "found money" and will spend it on things they normally might not buy. Perhaps they'll go out and buy some lottery tickets with it.

Three spots separated Thomas and Tebow; yet Thomas is a top 5 or 6 receiver in the NFL and Tebow is holding onto a third string quarterback position here praying to make it past the first round of roster cuts. Thomas also missed the combine and his pro day due to injury, along with him coming out of school a year early, so Thomas would appear to be the risker selection at the time.

Thomas was indeed a risky selection. Hell, they passed over Dez Bryant to take him. He was also coming out of an Option system (his Junior year) and that raised some eyebrows.

Von Miller
Demaryius Thomas
Ryan Clady

All three of them could be considered in the top five at their respective positions; yet you argue Tebow took them to the playoffs and won? Now I could be wrong but it appears Tebow threw the ball about 15 yards, Thomas caught it despite it being a bit high and behind him, and Thomas then broke 2 tackles with a straight arm and outran the defenders for 65 yards. Tebow ran down and prayed and said “God” thank you for giving me good the best receivers in college football and now in the NFL..

QB Tebow to WR Thomas, 80-yd, pass, TD - NFL Videos

Oh, so the Broncos beat Pitt 6 - 0 or 6-3? Silly me, I could have sworn that Denver won that game 29-23.

Hell, it's laughable the extent that you go to in trying to take any credit away from Tebow. Just look at what you wrote: "A bit high and behind". That's laughable. He hit DT in stride.

 

[sb1]

There's no "sabermetric" because people haven't found one yet. Maybe some day, scouts, nfl execs, and fans will find a way to properly evaluate qb's. Until then, teams will be stuck with players like Clausen and Gabbert for far too long. The fact that Brady (and others, to a lesser degree) was overlooked so badly indicates that there are very important factors they didn't account for. Evaluating "arm strength", "physique", and other similar conventions are pathetically insufficient ways to judge a qb.

Can't argue with that. And intangibles are very hard things to measure.

But I think they got lucky with Brady. Nobody can ever measure luck.

Big fat bolded capitalized size 4 "IF"

I still like the guy, of course, but if he keeps playing like he did the last couple weeks, he's cooked. Having potential and talent won't mean anything if he doesn't show enough to even make a roster.

Yup. Like I said I hope he plays well tonight and I don't want Suh going anywhere near him. YOu know Suh is an ahole and will want to get his name in the paper.

 

[Ian]

For the record, I'm not rooting for him to fail. If he somehow comes out and gets into a rhythm and is able to start moving the offense and shows he's coming around, that will be a start. If he does the same thing next week and starts to finally feel comfortable and plays well, that will obviously be a good thing and it will be a different story.

But I can't root for him in lieu of another player who is outperforming him when we know this team needs depth to go deep into the postseason and contend for a title. So it's up to him to prove people who might be questioning him wrong - which is a scenario I know people who support him enjoy anyway

 

[Demosthenes]

I'm afraid it does no such thing, and I never made the claim that "no QB's can be developed after X years in the league", especially not ones with Tim's throwing issues. So you didn't compare but you made a projection that is based on wishful thinking and little else at this point.

Young is a poor analogy for reasons I already stated. He played on a really bad Bucs team, and Tim's problems go miles beyond just adjusting to a new league.

And one exception does not make the rule anyway.

Aren't these your words ?

The other problem with the whole "Tebow should sit and learn to be a QB" thing is that you are talking about a 26 year old NFL vet on his 3rd team, not a 22 year old raw rookie that can be "taught". For point of reference, Tom Brady won his third Super Bowl ring when he was 26.

You point out that Tebow isn't a "22 year old raw rookie THAT CAN BE TAUGHT".

How is that not claiming that a QB can't be developed after X years in the league ? It's the very premise of the argument you presented.

 

[detpatsfan]

1.) we have the number 1 offense in the league, and that offense is gimmick free, why take the GOAT QB off the field in order to run a draw play?

2.)Tebow is not a good QB, he is not a developmental QB, He is a bust. plain and simple a BUST, all caps, who could not find a single team that wanted to sign him, until the patriots offered him league minimum, no bonus, no guarantees.

3.)half the teams last year carried only 2 QB's. Of the teams that carried 3 5 of those were because of rookie qb's, one of which had 2 rookies. so realisticly you are looking at 11 teams that carried 3 QB's none of which were rookies. Of those 11, one of them made the playoffs(houston).

4.)Tebow can't catch


5.) Tebow is not a good enough runner to replace blount/Boldon.

1) Nothing wrong with giving Brady a rest on obvious running downs (1st and 2nd) by utilizing Tebow in McDaniels' wildhorse. That way we preserve having the best offense in the NFL. Also there is nothing wrong with trying something new especially if it was already succesful in Denver.

2) Tebow has already proven he is a good qb at the NFL level. He has taken a team to the playoffs that was not playing well at all until he started. He has also won a playoff game and is a multiple threat as a runner and a thrower.

3) Dumb argument to say a team isn't carrying 3 qb's if one is a rookie? So rookies don't count anymore? So what were Russell Wilson, RG3 and Luck?

4) Tebow has the drive, determination, talent and athleticism to become one of the best Tight Ends in the NFL. Oh and he also would have a guy named Brady throwing him the ball.


Keep Tebow.

 

[Demosthenes]

For the record, I'm not rooting for him to fail. If he somehow comes out and gets into a rhythm and is able to start moving the offense and shows he's coming around, that will be a start. If he does the same thing next week and starts to finally feel comfortable and plays well, that will obviously be a good thing and it will be a different story.

But I can't root for him in lieu of another player who is outperforming him when we know this team needs depth to go deep into the postseason and contend for a title. So it's up to him to prove people who might be questioning him wrong - which is a scenario I know people who support him enjoy anyway

Ian, you and most the other posters have been extremely level headed and open minded about the Tebow signing from day one. There are a couple of exceptions of course, but it's been great here overall.

 

[sb1]

Aren't these your words ?



You point out that Tebow isn't a "22 year old raw rookie THAT CAN BE TAUGHT".

How is that not claiming that a QB can't be developed after X years in the league ? It's the very premise of the argument you presented.

No it isn't. I see you left out the second (and most important) part of my post:

By the time Tebow is done "learning" he will be getting closer and closer to 30 and perhaps with his 4th team. Now there are definitely late bloomers (like Rich Gannon) but none of them had the fundamental issues with their game that Tim has.

Did Steve Young have the throwing issues that Tim has? Nope.

If Tebow was a raw 22 year old rookie I could see the point of him "sitting and learning" on this roster. Not a 26 year old that we hope, wish and pray for the 0.1% chance he becomes Steve Young.

 

[detpatsfan]

No it isn't. I see you left out the second (and most important) part of my post:

By the time Tebow is done "learning" he will be getting closer and closer to 30 and perhaps with his 4th team. Now there are definitely late bloomers (like Rich Gannon) but none of them had the fundamental issues with their game that Tim has.

Did Steve Young have the throwing issues that Tim has? Nope.

If Tebow was a raw 22 year old rookie I could see the point of him "sitting and learning" on this roster. Not a 26 year old that we hope, wish and pray for the 0.1% chance he becomes Steve Young.

26 is still pretty young and Tebow has yet to play a full season as a starter in the NFL so he is low mileage. Conditioning overcomes age and Tim Tebow is one of the hardest workers in the NFL so I could see him playing another 14 or 15 seasons in the league if God allows it.


Young obviously learned from sitting behind Montana. Tebow could have the same sort of tutelage under Brady.

 

[sb1]

1) Nothing wrong with giving Brady a rest on obvious running downs (1st and 2nd) by utilizing Tebow in McDaniels' wildhorse.

It's "wildcat" and yes there is EVERYTHING wrong with pulling Tom Brady off the field for any reason at all barring injury or game being out of reach.

That way we preserve having the best offense in the NFL.

They already did before Tim came here.

Also there is nothing wrong with trying something new especially if it was already succesful in Denver.

Is 8-8 successful? How about getting clown stomped by the Patriots twice? Was that "successful"?

Tebow has already proven he is a good qb at the NFL level. He has taken a team to the playoffs that was not playing well at all until he started.

Tebow was a factor but not the only factor.

He has also won a playoff game

Wrong. QB's do not win games. Teams do.

Tebow has the drive, determination, talent and athleticism to become one of the best Tight Ends in the NFL.

No evidence at this point to back up that assertion, but we shall see what Bill has planned for him.

 

[Ironman44]

26 is still pretty young and Tebow has yet to play a full season as a starter in the NFL so he is low mileage. Conditioning overcomes age and Tim Tebow is one of the hardest workers in the NFL so I could see him playing another 14 or 15 seasons in the league if God allows it.


Young obviously learned from sitting behind Montana. Tebow could have the same sort of tutelage under Brady.

Are you really so bored you have to come on the forum and pretend to be a Tebow fan?

I guess Tebow fans were acting so rationally here the haters have to create fake accounts .

I'll give you some stuff is funny as hell ( Taking Brady out 1st and 2nd down for Mcadaniels wild horse lol! ) but man c'mon I can't believe some members here don't realize what your doing .

 

[detpatsfan]

2011 QB Rankings

Completion percentage – 34th
Passing yards – 32nd
Passing yards per game – 34th
Yards per attempt – 28th
Passing Touchdowns – 27th
Times sacked – 12th (more than Tom Brady had in 16 games)
QB rating – 28th

Please note that these rankings are out of 34 total quarterbacks (14 attempts per game) therefore Tebow ranked dead last in 2, and in the bottom of all ranks except times sacked. Am I missing something?

So I have to ask the question Demo; are you lobbying for any of these players below to be quarterback in the NFL?

Curtis Painter
Matt Cassel
Matt Moore
Tarvaris Jackson
Colt McCoy
Kyle Orton
Matt Hasselbeck
Rex Grossman
John Skelton
Ryan Fitzpatrick

You're kidding right?

None of those quarterbacks you listed have anything close to Tebow's running ability. Also, none of them with the exceptions of Hasselbeck (who is old) and Grossman (who had the best defense in the NFL carrying him) have won a playoff game.

 

[Ian]

Ian, you and most the other posters have been extremely level headed and open minded about the Tebow signing from day one. There are a couple of exceptions of course, but it's been great here overall.

Appreciate that. I'm not a guy who hopes a guy fails just to be proven right. I had hoped he would have come in and had been able to contribute and at least be a backup. It just hasn't worked out so far unfortunately, and the prospect of counting on him for regular season snaps (gasp) frightens me. At least judging by his recent body of work.