Trades that make sense thread

[Metaphors]

So to answer you who would I rather have :
C.Long/C.Jackson/bpa or
Avril/Cason/Mayo....I would much rather have 1 great player, the rest is and always will be covered with smoke and mirrors. Getting a great player simply doesnt come along everyday. BB/SP know that.

The Pats under Belichick have been in the top 10 only once (Seymour) and have still been able to come away with "great" players in the first round. Warren, Wilfork, Mankins are already there. Maroney may be on the way. What makes you think that CLong will be "great" for the Patriots and Mayo won't?

This draft is generally considered deep but not top-heavy, with lots of value in the 2nd-3rd round. That evaluation may be entirely incorrect but that seems like an accurate read on this draft class. So for this draft, I would much rather get one guy in the mid-teens (6 yr deal) and fill up in the 2nd round.

For the first time in a long time, the Pats have multiple positions on defense with "short-timers" at the top of the depth chart. Now is the ideal time to bring in multiple starting caliber players and inject some necessary youth and speed into this defense.

 

[jeffbiologist]

The Pats under Belichick have been in the top 10 only once (Seymour) and have still been able to come away with "great" players in the first round. Warren, Wilfork, Mankins are already there. Maroney may be on the way. What makes you think that CLong will be "great" for the Patriots and Mayo won't?

This draft is generally considered deep but not top-heavy, with lots of value in the 2nd-3rd round. That evaluation may be entirely incorrect but that seems like an accurate read on this draft class. So for this draft, I would much rather get one guy in the mid-teens (6 yr deal) and fill up in the 2nd round.

For the first time in a long time, the Pats have multiple positions on defense with "short-timers" at the top of the depth chart. Now is the ideal time to bring in multiple starting caliber players and inject some necessary youth and speed into this defense.

The pats under BB work off a star system. They would MUCH rather have a star(A) and 2 jags(Cs) than 3 "average" (Bs)players. Its just so hard to get playmakers where we always draft, and guys like AD are going to be franchised so they hardly ever hit the market.

Warren is not a GREAT player, heis solid and does well in our system because we dont ask much of him. Wilfork was drafted under a blue moon, we got lucky with him and he with us.Mankins? Any G drafted in the first round BETTER be an all pro. NONE of these guys are PLAYMAKERS.

We generally dont draft LBs because of all the seperate qualities it takes to play in our system. Long is the exception, and like Vrabel and AD should be able to play both inside and outside(VALUE). He can play every down. He can move around. He wont be a distraction, tell me that wouldnt be a concern drafting a CB in the first,lol. The difference in skills between a 2nd rd CB and a 4th rd CB can be made up with a good pass rush. Tell me, do you think Samuel was good coming out of college? He was the 20th(!!)ranked CB, we MADE him good, drafting him had little to do with it.
VALUE is relative. We can always get jags, we can even get 1-2 "good" contributors in the draft every year. But its just too tempting to BB to find that playmaker if he can.....and you dont find those in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Not on defense, not on this team.

 

[Metaphors]

So much wrong, so little time...

The pats under BB work off a star system. They would MUCH rather have a star(A) and 2 jags(Cs) than 3 "average" (Bs)players.

What the hell are you babbling about? Nobody is talking about trading out of pick #7 into the 4th round. At what point in this draft do you think "star" prospects stop and "average" prospects begin? I don't think your tiered evaluation of 10 stars, 50 average guys and 200 JAGs is going to catch on anytime soon. I assume there isn't a level below JAG like "Soul Sucker" or "Vomit Inducing".

Warren is not a GREAT player, heis solid and does well in our system because we dont ask much of him. Wilfork was drafted under a blue moon, we got lucky with him and he with us.Mankins? Any G drafted in the first round BETTER be an all pro. NONE of these guys are PLAYMAKERS.

Truly your talent evaluation skills have me stumped. I don't have the words to respond.

We generally dont draft LBs because of all the seperate qualities it takes to play in our system. Long is the exception, and like Vrabel and AD should be able to play both inside and outside(VALUE). He can play every down.

In my imagination, he moves like the guy in the Matrix. Very cool.

HE HAS NEVER PLAYED LINEBACKER! He hasn't even played a 4-3 DE which there is some history of translating to a 3-4 OLB. He might be able to make the transition, but you may want to hold off playing him every down on both the inside and outside until HE ACTUALLY TAKES A SNAP AT LINEBACKER.

He can move around. He wont be a distraction,

You just described my goldfish.

Tell me, do you think Samuel was good coming out of college? He was the 20th(!!)ranked CB, we MADE him good, drafting him had little to do with it.

He was 4th-round-pick good. He got good coaching, played in a good system with good players. He worked and studied hard and turned HIMSELF into a fine player. I am interested in this "making a player good in spite of themself" program the Pats run. Apparently Monte Beisel took the "taking up space without anyone noticing" program instead. Common mistake.

And drafting Samuel had something to do with it. I'm pretty sure that if another team drafted him they wouldn't let him get coaching from the Pats or play in their system on gameday. There might be a loophole so this idea may require some research.

VALUE is relative. We can always get jags, we can even get 1-2 "good" contributors in the draft every year. But its just too tempting to BB to find that playmaker if he can.....and you dont find those in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Not on defense, not on this team.

That would be an excellent point if anyone was suggesting that the Pats trade down from #7 into the 2nd or 3rd rounds. That could be a problem anyway since I doubt many teams have the 8-10 3rd round picks it would take to pull off that deal. I'm pretty sure there has been a playmaker or two that have been drafted in the low teens area though.

 

[Seels]

Warren is not a GREAT player, heis solid and does well in our system because we dont ask much of him. Wilfork was drafted under a blue moon, we got lucky with him and he with us.Mankins? Any G drafted in the first round BETTER be an all pro. NONE of these guys are PLAYMAKERS.

The whole post is awful, but this is truly ridiculous. Are you really young, a new football fan, or just not smart?

Warren had a downyear compared to 06, but he's still an elite Dlineman.

I don't even know what drafted under a blue moon means, Willfork was the 2nd DT taken in the 04 draft, and probably the best player in the draft.

Any guard drafted in the first round better be an all pro? Are you stupid? So, let's say there are 3 guards drafted in the draft every year. By your logic, we'd have to have at least a dozen all pro guards throughout the league. Does that make sense to you? At all?

You should probably stick to what you do best, whatever it is, don't let it be intelligently discussing football.

 

[jeffbiologist]

The whole post is awful, but this is truly ridiculous. Are you really young, a new football fan, or just not smart?

Warren had a downyear compared to 06, but he's still an elite Dlineman.

I don't even know what drafted under a blue moon means, Willfork was the 2nd DT taken in the 04 draft, and probably the best player in the draft.

Any guard drafted in the first round better be an all pro? Are you stupid? So, let's say there are 3 guards drafted in the draft every year. By your logic, we'd have to have at least a dozen all pro guards throughout the league. Does that make sense to you? At all?

You should probably stick to what you do best, whatever it is, don't let it be intelligently discussing football.

No, I am proud to say I have been a pats fan longer than you have been alive. My talent eval is quite accurate....Warren is the 3rd best DL on this TEAM, his stats have never been huge(and thats because they dont ask much of him). Has he ever come up with a BIG PLAY? A strip sack? I cant even think of him making a play to get them off the field on 3rd down never mind in the playoffs.....he is a SOLID player, not a playmaker, there is a difference. Seymour is a PLAYMAKER.
A BLUE MOON is just that, look it up, a full moon that doesnt come along but once in a while.....last one was the night we won the world series(true). Wilfork is a very good, very important part of our defense. That said, he doesnt play every down either. Mankins is a G, and maybe 1 G is drafted in the first round each year. Now there are 4 starters in the pro bowl every year.....you do the math hotshot. YES, every G drafted in the first round BETTER make the pro bowl.

Metaphors----NO DRINKING AND POSTING, its hard to have a battle of wits with the unarmed. And tell your soul-sucking goldfish to stop watching the matrix. Is that what the kids are calling it now?? The two of you will go blind. LOL.

 

[Metaphors]

My talent eval is quite accurate

No, it is not. Warren was re-signed to a big long-term deal. Belichick doesn't do that for solid, not great players who are asked to do very little. He thinks Warren is a great player uniquely suited for the Patriot's system. I agree with him.

Mankins is a G, and maybe 1 G is drafted in the first round each year. Now there are 4 starters in the pro bowl every year.....you do the math hotshot. YES, every G drafted in the first round BETTER make the pro bowl.

And we all know that guards retire after 4 years to make room for the next wave of 1st round guards to play in the pro bowl. Mankins was drafted at the very end of the 1st round. I'm assuming your "math" dictates that pro bowl talent for guards stops at pick #32.

its hard to have a battle of wits with the unarmed.

You have proven yourself to have limited football insight and little overall intelligence. If you want to run with the big boys on this board you are going to have to bring something to the table. Spewing nonsense and then crying when you get called on it? Not so much...

 

[A.C Vegas]

No, I am proud to say I have been a pats fan longer than you have been alive.

How can you be so sure I have been a fan since as far back as i can remeber some of my earliet memories are of cheering fro the patriots.

My talent eval is quite accurate....Warren is the 3rd best DL on this TEAM, his stats have never been huge(and thats because they dont ask much of him). Has he ever come up with a BIG PLAY? A strip sack? I cant even think of him making a play to get them off the field on 3rd down never mind in the playoffs.....he is a SOLID player, not a playmaker, there is a difference. Seymour is a PLAYMAKER.

So all of your "talent" evaluations are based on "big plays". The whole quote above here proves you don't undertand the concept of the 3-4 defense so I will tell you. In the 3-4 it's the D-lines job to hold up the O-line and create space for the playmakers at linebacker to make the plays. That is the opoisite of the 4-3 in whcih the D line is expected to make bigger plays.

Wilfork is a very good, very important part of our defense. That said, he doesnt play every down either.

Wilfork is considered by many around the league the BEST NT in football right now. As for he doesn't play every down you name me one player in the front 7 of the Patriots that does.

Mankins is a G, and maybe 1 G is drafted in the first round each year. Now there are 4 starters in the pro bowl every year.....you do the math hotshot. YES, every G drafted in the first round BETTER make the pro bowl.

Just because a G is drafted inthe first round doesn't mean they Better every year I want to say 6 G make the Pro bowl out of 64 G's. It is very easy to happen that 3 G's in the AFC have better year then Mankins does that make him a bust hell no he might be the 4th best in the AFC but only the top 3 make the Pro Bowl. Also have you have you ever heard of teams draft for need instad of value which cause teams to take player earlier then what is expeced from there talent evaluations. In case you haven't it's called a REACH you should check in on it some time

Metaphors----NO DRINKING AND POSTING, its hard to have a battle of wits with the unarmed. And tell your soul-sucking goldfish to stop watching the matrix. Is that what the kids are calling it now?? The two of you will go blind. LOL.

why did you attack him instead of going after what he said in his post?

 

[jeffbiologist]

Great players MAKE PLAYS. Good players do their jobs, know their roles and let other players make plays. I understand the 3-4 defense, and I understand a guy named Seymour plays the same position on the other side ALOT better than Warren(when he isnt hurt). I never said Warren wasnt good, but he isnt GREAT.
Wilfork doesnt play on obvious passing downs. Seymour and Warren play every down, the LBs are rotating and interchangable so other than AD there might not be one there either. A guy that plays every down is therefore "worth more", and Vince is the best NT in the game...never said a bad thing about him.
Mankins, besides his SB mess(A BIG "BESIDES"), has been GOOD. With any OL position, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I find no problem saying that if we draft a guy in the first round to play G that he should be in the top 10% every year if the rest of the line is as good as it is. If you are drafted in the top 10% your PLAY should be as if you are in the top 10%. Why make a big deal of him making a pro bowl?? He SHOULD make the pro bowl, "act as if you have been there before". That said, thats not the kind of G we NEED. We should be able to get by with a lesser guy, we had a need so we reached....but maybe we could have taken a G like Dylan Gandy in the 4th rd that same year.....all he has done was to start on the Colts. We could have had Ruud or Tatupu as well.....
Sorry if you feel I picked on you and not METAPHORS. You bring up points of argument(what a forum is for), all he does is make fun, call names, and say I am wrong,lol. HE is the one acting like a little kid, and doesnt deserve a response.
AC VEGAS, are you and SEELS the same guy?? Why would you respond against me when I repsonded against HIM??

 

[A.C Vegas]

I responded because i didn't agree with you assesments all the way thought out the thread i didn't really care who you were talking to I felt like i should put my opinion out there whcih is my right to do. You place too much value on stats and big plays which tell me that you do not understand the subtties of the game of football. i'd rather have a guy like Warren who understands his role does everhting that is asked of him and excels at those things. Then a "big play" and "stats" guy, players like that tend to not care so much about their job and care about their stats and making the highlight reels

 

[Metaphors]

Sorry if you feel I picked on you and not METAPHORS. You bring up points of argument(what a forum is for), all he does is make fun, call names, and say I am wrong,lol. HE is the one acting like a little kid, and doesnt deserve a response.

I tried to make some points about this particular draft class and how the Pats could position themselves best, and you responded with:

• A mythical 3-tiered "Star" system of evaluation
• Your "playmaker" designation and why Warren, Wilfork and Mankins don't deserve it
• CLong as so amazingly good at a position he has never played that the Pats should draft him, play him inside and outside and never take him off the field
• Asante as being unable to walk without hurting himself...until the Pats made him a solid CB despite his complete lack of skills
• Insinuating that the choice for the Pats this year is to select someone at #7 or find leftovers in the 2nd and 3rd round

And you didn't expect to get slammed? You are wrong, so much so that it is funny. Feel free to defend any of your statements listed above. Though if you are sensitive to having your opinions trashed, you may want to try some new material.

 

[jeffbiologist]

I tried to make some points about this particular draft class and how the Pats could position themselves best, and you responded with:

• A mythical 3-tiered "Star" system of evaluation
• Your "playmaker" designation and why Warren, Wilfork and Mankins don't deserve it
• CLong as so amazingly good at a position he has never played that the Pats should draft him, play him inside and outside and never take him off the field
• Asante as being unable to walk without hurting himself...until the Pats made him a solid CB despite his complete lack of skills
• Insinuating that the choice for the Pats this year is to select someone at #7 or find leftovers in the 2nd and 3rd round

And you didn't expect to get slammed? You are wrong, so much so that it is funny. Feel free to defend any of your statements listed above. Though if you are sensitive to having your opinions trashed, you may want to try some new material.

My opinions can be backed up with facts, as you will see.
1-the title of this thread was to list realistic trade scenarios and if you look real close on the first page....I suggested 7/62 for 13/43, so there goes your having me stuck at 7.
2-The STAR system. There are jags, there are starters, and there are PLAYMAKERS. Its reflective in salary. Its refective in our ideas of keeping some guys who start...and letting some guys go(because they THINK they are playmakers). We call this a VALUE system, thats why we have a draft and dont just pull numbers out of a hat.Its VERY difficult for a GREAT TEAM to aquire more new PLAYMAKERS on defense because of the franchise tag. It was a stroke of LUCK that Baltimore couldnt franchise 2 guys that AD hit the market.

3-C.Long is the only player in this draft that most scouts(not me)can see him playing 6/7 of the front 7 positions in the 3-4. In the NFL you draft a guy based on what you want him to do for you, not for what he did in college. What he did in college varies because players are asked to do different things. With the obvious lack of depth at LB we all want some youth there, and I would much rather have one STUD and 2 jags than 3 "average" starters. And I think BB drools over players like LT, Willy, AD and even Bruschi in years past because of their versatility and ability TO MAKE PLAYS.

4-PLAYMAKERS. Guys that MAKE PLAYS. This isnt just "knowing your role", its going that extra mile...Its the difference between Seymour and Warren, and its refective in their salaries. Guards arent playmakers, and run stuffing NTs arent playmakers when we are up by 30 and the other team is throwing all the time. Rodney is slow, but the only reason he is still here is HE MAKES PLAYS. How many times has he ended drives in the PLAYOFFS with picks?? He is now posterized on the Tyree catch, and its well known our defensive PLAYMAKERS are getting older. The difference between a guy you draft at #7 and the guy you get at 62 is obvious to most anyone. Defensive playmakers in this draft ---2. Long and Dorsey.

5-Your defense of Samuel is laughable. Samuel is a guy who thinks he is a PLAYMAKER, we say he is a product of a system. Considering this is a draft forum, I suggest his ability PRE DRAFT I suggest that that difference in skillset was made while he was here. He did it for himself or we did it for the team....thats water under the bridge, it doesnt matter, but it happened right?

In a forum we have to respect each others opinion. We can ASK what developed someones opinion, but to criticize someone elses opinion without having one of your own is hypocritical. To call me names, compare my well thought out thoughts to your goldfish, your favorite movie, or any of your other hobbies is uncalled for. If you have something insightful to say please have at it, but if you want to engage in immature diatribe I suggest you just keep reading and stay in school.