The Patriots were toast before the season began- a casualty of the salary cap.

[Patriot Missile]

Tua and Allen improved from year's one and two before their super weapons arrived... Mac didn't.

Superweapons can enhance an already good QB, they can't turn a bad QB good.

Hopkins has made bad qbs serviceable at Houston. Maybe even made a good one a lot a money that he may not have deserved.

 

[RobertWeathers]

By that logic, WTF were Miami and BUF thinking bringing in weapons for Tua and Allen, who didn't look any better than Jones did in their first years?

Josh Allen did not look great in 2018 but in 2019 he made great improvement enough to believe he was the guy. They were right.

Tua was very gamemanager-ish but give credit to MIA. They liked his accuracy and how the team played behind him and invested accordingly. Cleary it paid off.

In 2021 the Pats added offensive talent, had a good OC and Mac had a pretty good rookie year. In 2022 they scale back the offense and chose not to invest in his development, In 2023 they chose not to invest in the skill position and o-line.

One can ask....why didn't they invest? After the 2021 season did they already draw the conclusion he didn't have the arm strength or the makeup to be successful?

 

[Wozzy]

Hopkins has made bad qbs serviceable at Houston. Maybe even made a good one a lot a money that he may not have deserved.

Who?

 

[Patriot Missile]

Who?

Deshaun Watson.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It boils down to the amount of guaranteed $ in a contract. Patriots are not known for dishing out a lot of guarantees, opting for incentive based contracts. The guaranteed $, I believe needs to be paid out in cash or escrowed (same thing). In 2021 the Pats had an NFL record in guarantees ($140M+) which was the talk that year. Pioli said the Pats dished out more guaranteed $ that year than in all the ones he was there. Kraft stated he never had to write so many checks.

That's probably why we lose out on FAs like DHop, Meyers and so many others. If you recall, JJSS contract was similar to Meyers aside for the guaranteed amount of $. At the end of the day, the guaranteed $ is the real money to the players.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, not an expert, but that's my simplified understanding of it.

Cash and escrow stuff is completely irrelevant to salary cap. When does the money actually go into the player’s bank account? It has zero bearing on cap space.

A team might pay all of guaranteed up front as a sign on bonus but the cap hit can be almost nothing in year one due to the contract structure.

Hence it is true Patriots set record for guaranteed money in 2021. It is also true they backloaded the **** out of these contracts so they could go all-in for that season, which is why they’ve had almost zero money to spend in last two FAs.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

One can ask....why didn't they invest? After the 2021 season did they already draw the conclusion he didn't have the arm strength or the makeup to be successful?

If that's the case, which seems doubtful, then they should've just traded him after that season.

 

[Wozzy]

Deshaun Watson.

Watson led the entire league in total offense, passing yards and ranked second in QB Rating in 2020. He went to three pro bowls over his career, it wasn't solely because of Hopkins.

He's playing badly in Cleveland after sitting out an entire year and getting dragged through court for being a sexual predator, but that was then, this is now. Michael Vick wasn't the dynamo he was when he got released from prison and was away from the game either.

Neither Andrew Walters nor Aaron Brooks became a better QB because they had Randy Moss in 2006, within a year or two both QB's were out of the league.

But since we're cherry picking Philadelphia as a team that spends money and attributing their success to that... why don't we talk about the Browns, they've spent more money than anyone. Or how about the Giants, they spent also. It's silly.

The Eagles built the large majority of their team with homegrown talent, they've built up their offensive and defensive lines... in the words of their GM Howie Roseman. They're not successful simply because they spent money. They spent money when they knew they had a contender worth investing in.

For almost a decade Washington under Dan Snyder spent gobs of money trying to win. Jerry Jones in the aftermath of Jimmie Johnson leaving spent like a drunken sailor in an attempt to buy the rings that Jimmy won using smart team building. Time has shown repeatedly that you can't buy a championship and spending more doesn't necessarily translate to more wins. It only seems that way when you focus on the one winning team and ignore all the losers who spent a lot of money.

We signed productive players in Jonnu and Agholor, they came to New England and sucked, now they're on other teams and producing again... we have a Mac problem, not a spending problem.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Watson led the entire league in total offense, passing yards and ranked second in QB Rating in 2020. He went to three pro bowls over his career, it wasn't solely because of Hopkins.

Check out the more advanced stats on Watson (EPA, DVOA, ANY/A) where his sacks and negative plays are factored in. He was never a great QB but was a little above average.

 

[Thunderhead]

Salary cap is nothing but an excuse used by cheap ownership.

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

The eagles have been very successful at recognizing their good horgrown talent early and then resigning them to extensions at good prices. As has been previously mentioned, patriots have not had enough draftees develop and stay with the team for a second contract.

 

[Santi]

As he pointed out, the Eagles will have to pay eventually for those void years. Of course, the cap increases with inflation every year so it becomes relatively less expensive.

This is not necessarily true, it depends how much the cap rises compared to player salaries/expectations. If the cap rises by 3-5% a year (random numbers) but player salaries rise by the same or more then it doesn't really get any cheaper cos the new players and updated salaries to current players will eat it all away.

I still think it's beneficial for sure, annoys me that we haven't just joined all the other teams cheating the cap but it will all come back to haunt them in a few years (Hi Rams) and i'm more than ready to watch it happen to the queefs

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The eagles have been very successful at recognizing their good horgrown talent early and then resigning them to extensions at good prices. As has been previously mentioned, patriots have not had enough draftees develop and stay with the team for a second contract.

Or Bill has simply chosen not to re-sign them.

Meyers (signs expensive garbage instead.)

Thuney (picks up franchise tag, cited as one reason they’re too cash poor for Brady, then lets him walk)

Wynn (picks up 5th year option, let’s walk)

 

[Patriot Missile]

Watson led the entire league in total offense, passing yards and ranked second in QB Rating in 2020. He went to three pro bowls over his career, it wasn't solely because of Hopkins.

He's playing badly in Cleveland after sitting out an entire year and getting dragged through court for being a sexual predator, but that was then, this is now. Michael Vick wasn't the dynamo he was when he got released from prison and was away from the game either.

Neither Andrew Walters nor Aaron Brooks became a better QB because they had Randy Moss in 2006, within a year or two both QB's were out of the league.

But since we're cherry picking Philadelphia as a team that spends money and attributing their success to that... why don't we talk about the Browns, they've spent more money than anyone. Or how about the Giants, they spent also. It's silly.

The Eagles built the large majority of their team with homegrown talent, they've built up their offensive and defensive lines... in the words of their GM Howie Roseman. They're not successful simply because they spent money. They spent money when they knew they had a contender worth investing in.

For almost a decade Washington under Dan Snyder spent gobs of money trying to win. Jerry Jones in the aftermath of Jimmie Johnson leaving spent like a drunken sailor in an attempt to buy the rings that Jimmy won using smart team building. Time has shown repeatedly that you can't buy a championship and spending more doesn't necessarily translate to more wins. It only seems that way when you focus on the one winning team and ignore all the losers who spent a lot of money.

We signed productive players in Jonnu and Agholor, they came to New England and sucked, now they're on other teams and producing again... we have a Mac problem, not a spending problem.

Hence, I called him a good Qb. Not like I was totally insulting the guy. Hopkins made him great, at least in appearance. He had a top3 running back, an alleged top tier wr with Cooper, nowhere close to what he did with Hopkins. Call it due to injury or whatever, even with his 10 games in 2 seasons, 11tds, 8 ints is Not very inspiring.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Thuney (picks up franchise tag, cited as one reason they’re too cash poor for Brady, then lets him walk)

Wynn (picks up 5th year option, let’s walk)

These are two examples of weird **** Bill did.

 

[Ring 6]

Mac makes his offensive line look worse than it is, the Bengals offensive line makes Burrow look worse than he is... there's a difference.

We've seen Burrow look exceptional, even with one of the worst lines in the NFL, he brought them all the way to the Super Bowl.

Mac has never looked exceptional... ever.

When he has looked simply "good" we've jumped for joy, but he can't maintain that consistently.

It's about time we've stopped embracing excuses and stared the truth in the face... Mac's simply not very good.

And where is Cincinnati right now? Burriw is 28-20-1 in his career. They made it to a SB once and lost and were knocked out last year because that OL that you think is irrelevant got him sacked 5 times.
Many teams elevate their QB and are very competitive because they have very good OLs. Philly, SF are 2 examples.
It’s not about whining about Mac, it’s about the reality that a good OL makes the entire offense better and the same guy you would say sucks behind a bad one loos good behind a good one.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't have a grasp on the details, but doesn't cash and cap money have to ultimately be equal in the aggregate over a period of several years? I just don't get this Kraft is cheap talk. Any cash he saves today, he ultimately has to spend in the future to maintain his minimum cap requirements. What am I missing?

Here is the argument.
If team a signs a guy for 1 year 5 mill and team b signs a guy for 5 years 40 mill with a 5 mill first year cap hit include a 15 mill signing bonus, both teams spend 5 on the cap, team a sorbs 5mill AAV, team b 8 mill AAV. Team a 5 mill cash this year and ever, team b 17 mill cash this year and 40 mill ever.

But in that example team a has about 10 mill more in cap to spend next year, and 35 mill more ever.

 

[Ring 6]

Check out the more advanced stats on Watson (EPA, DVOA, ANY/A) where his sacks and negative plays are factored in. He was never a great QB but was a little above average.

Watson is severely overrated. If you watch him play it’s easy to see.
Biggest gap between what stats look like and what his play looks like in the league.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Here is the argument.
If team a signs a guy for 1 year 5 mill and team b signs a guy for 5 years 40 mill with a 5 mill first year cap hit include a 15 mill signing bonus, both teams spend 5 on the cap, team a sorbs 5mill AAV, team b 8 mill AAV. Team a 5 mill cash this year and ever, team b 17 mill cash this year and 40 mill ever.

But in that example team a has about 10 mill more in cap to spend next year, and 35 mill more ever.

This is irrelevant to the argument about whether Kraft is cheap.

If you want to argue the Patriots are spending poorly, or they should have a different spending approach, that's a perfectly valid argument. But you can't argue that he's unwilling to spend the salary cap money he's given without explaining how he's getting that money into his pocket.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Watson is severely overrated. If you watch him play it’s easy to see.
Biggest gap between what stats look like and what his play looks like in the league.

Agree but Russell Wilson is neck and neck.

 

[Patriot Missile]

He’s a weird one to figure out. How he got progressively worse is crazy. Was looking like he was on his way earlier in his career.

This is what happens when you rely on your legs to be successful and just stop using them.

His skill set was predicated off mobility, having a strong rb and able receivers.

I don’t know what happened to the quick outs/ins plays where the reads were simple. Maybe defenses figured it out? He’s had talent around him and good coaching. Did football become less important to him after marriage?