The Official Vrabel vs Ben Johnson Discussion Thread

[upstater1]

I think there needs to be a discussion about "trees" O'brian was a football coach for like 13yrs before Bill brought him to New England..like 6yrs for his 20+ yr career have been with BB.

But this sort of distinction is never made when we're talking about Shanahan's tree or McVay's tree.

 

[Froob]

Yes we’d have to move to EP but we’d have it for years assuming McDaniels is planning for a long term gig.

 

[Love The Drake]

Yes we’d have to move to EP but we’d have it for years assuming McDaniels is planning for a long term gig.

Yeah if you do then just give McDaniels a pay and title he is happy with.
I am ok with this.
Unless you are going after Johnson, but McDaniels might have that stacked Lions team running similar.

Very interesting.

 

[JayNM]

Here is the Shanahan Quote, its long and it is also older(2017) but goes along the lines of what I believe Vrabel believes

Kyle Shanahan on analytics: ‘I just try to not ever think in absolutes.’

The 49ers head coach offered some thoughts on how he uses analytics.

www.ninersnation.com

[Shanahan] “First of all, I think there is no absolute answer. I know you can get the analytics, and go with percentages and things like that, but there are penalties, there are missed field goals — there’s different opinions. And that’s why a lot of times you’ve gotta go with your gut, which is usually what I do. I always listen to the analytics, I hear the percentages, and then you’ve gotta go with how you feel.
“We were down two points when we were running the ball [regarding Bears game]. If they would have let us score, we probably would have scored, because I hadn’t told them to not do it yet. I was starting to do that on the last place, and that’s when I started to take a knee. And the reason being is I’ve had too many things go wrong in the past. When you’re down two points and someone is giving you the lead, that field goal isn’t guaranteed. I know field goals are high percentage, but you get a penalty, you get set back like that — we lead the league right now in red zone penalties. And the last two times we were down there, we had 2nd and 1 and got a number of penalties. I’m nervous about getting pushed back a little bit.
“You don’t want to be too picky and be too cute with it, but you also want to make sure you don’t give them time to come back. And I thought it worked out perfectly. Once they did tackle on the last power that we ran, we quickly went to the knee, and thought we could finish it with the field goal.
“But there was no exact answer there. And I’ve got a guy who helps me with the analytics standpoint upstairs. His name’s Cordell. We were talking about it through the whole exchange, and we didn’t feel 100 percent on what the right answer was until we took that knee.”
“I sit and meet with our analytics guys about once a week and go through stuff. It could say it’s a 95 percent field goal, but that doesn’t say what the weather is. That doesn’t say maybe your long snapper has been struggling. It doesn’t say how your kicker’s been struggling because of what happened the week before. There’s so many variables that go into things in the NFL — weather, home or on the road — that you can’t always take that stuff as absolutes.

That's a great quote. Might have read it back then, but definitely not when reading about Vrabel in the Titans.

But, having read your posts and this now, I can't quite be that confident in the bolded part (definitely more now than before, though). Truth be told, might be my own stubborness in thinking, too.

Anyway, if Vrabel is indeed like, then I'm a very happy camper. Thank you for the info

 

[203Pat]

Everything old becomes new again at some time

It just feels like we stay with it till right before it turns new then we switch to what is about to no longer be new so we are always behind.

 

[Water Boy]

How dare you **** on Marcus Mariota and Ryan Tannehill?

 

[maust]

Everything old becomes new again at some time

Wish my body believed that

 

[Headcase]

Hmmm so is it west Coast or EP? Or is there more overlap between the 2 then we realize.

I copied this from where I posted it earlier....
__________

Interesting thing I learned this morning, Johnson runs a variation of EP too


One of Johnson’s greatest qualities as an offensive coordinator was something in short supply in the modern NFL: Being immutable. He’s a coach who doesn’t have a fixed scheme or tendency that he needs to build towards, instead using his own modern twist on the classic Erhardt-Perkins system to utilize the players available to him, and maximizing their ability.
_________


I know I read something else recently about how he runs his system, short play calls, concepts vs routes....it will all sound very familiar to anyone that followed the dynasty.

But like Josh changed EP up over the years for the personal of the team, so is Johnson....EP is how plays are called...not what plays are.

 

[Headcase]

But this sort of distinction is never made when we're talking about Shanahan's tree or McVay's tree.

I think it probably should be....this will sound dirty, but how pure is the lineage?

 

[Headcase]

Was AVP running a numbers based system though? Or are they learning something new regardless? I guess there would be more overlap.

I get the fear about switching offenses but I wouldn't let that fear dictate my HC choices and the OC he thinks best for his staff.

Yes AvP is more of an OG WC guy, so long play calls specifying what every skill player is going

 

[signbabybrady]

Yes AvP is more of an OG WC guy, so long play calls specifying what every skill player is going

Thanks. Everything you're saying jives with what I thought I knew. I just didn't want to be the one to try and contradict or argue because while I've read a lot through the years I've never played and actually learned any system so I can get over my head really quickly.

 

[Family]

i was leaning to ben johnson but i think i'm being talked into vrabel and hoping he brings a personnel guru with him.

Yea I'm flipp-flopping as well. Still contemplating.

Me also but i think that shows we have 2 at least good candidates.

Much better than being stuck with taking what's left of the crap.

I would be happy with either Vrabel or BJ, but I prefer Vrabel. I would take the experienced HC who took his team with a below average QB to the AFCCG over a rookie HC who is considered an offensive genius anyday!

Count me flip-flopper too.

It really boils down to structure. I only want BJ if the right defensive guy is coming or Vrabel with the right OC.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Count me flip-flopper too.

It really boils down to structure. I only want BJ if the right defensive guy is coming or Vrabel with the right OC.

...and there is mature, proven front office leadership in which Johnson is 100% comfortable and aligned with on personnel.

 

[Love The Drake]

Count me flip-flopper too.

It really boils down to structure. I only want BJ if the right defensive guy is coming or Vrabel with the right OC.

I think both will get us out of the pit we were headed with Mayo who spent more time on his poker face than on game prep.

 

[Love The Drake]

...and there is mature, proven front office leadership in which Johnson is 100% comfortable and aligned with on personnel.

I like Johnson’s choice of GM better.
I would need a guarantee from McDaniels he wouldn’t leave or I’m going Johnson for Maye and or Milton’s sake.

 

[PatsFan2]

Count me flip-flopper too.

It really boils down to structure. I only want BJ if the right defensive guy is coming or Vrabel with the right OC.

That's the hope and based on experience and familiarity you have to give Mike Vrabel the edge. He has worked with brilliant young minds like Matt LaFleur. Also not his fault but what might hurt Ben Johnson is the Lions going far in the Playoffs... the well can get a little dry with guys flying all over the place. I don't want any second fiddle or afterthought Defensive Coordinator. Vrabel have the jump on putting a quality staff together: again not Ben Johnson's fault but the NFL playoffs rules for Coordinators is a problem.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I like Johnson’s choice of GM better.
I would need a guarantee from McDaniels he wouldn’t leave or I’m going Johnson for Maye and or Milton’s sake.

Who is Johnson's GM choice?

 

[Rob0729]

 

[Love The Drake]

I hate to say it but I think the reason they are interviewing Glenn is to find out more how his defense matches against Johnson’s offense.

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

I think both will get us out of the pit we were headed with Mayo who spent more time on his poker face than on game prep.

Mayo put us into the pit of misery...