The Official Vrabel vs Ben Johnson Discussion Thread

[signbabybrady]

Personally would like if it wasn’t McDaniels. I think we’ve seen enough of him and it’s time to move on from the guy.

Had enough of him. He first took the offense to the next level in 07, then when he comes back he wins 3 SBs, and he sticks around for the one season Mac made the playoffs.

He obviously failed as a HC but I don't understand why anyone around here wouldn't love to have him as an OC.

 

[TommyD4207]

Had enough of him. He first took the offense to the next level in 07, then when he comes back he wins 3 SBs, and he sticks around for the one season Mac made the playoffs.

He obviously failed as a HC but I don't understand why anyone around here wouldn't love to have him as an OC.

Because it would require the quarterbacks, and the rest of the offense to learn an entirely new system. There's a half dozen other OCs in the same tier as McDaniels who run WCO or similar.

 

[Froob]

Because it would require the quarterbacks, and the rest of the offense to learn an entirely new system. There's a half dozen other OCs in the same tier as McDaniels who run WCO or similar.

McDaniels is an excellent QB coach. Brady, Cassel, Jimmy, he made an entirely new playbook for Cam. I'd be thrilled to have him honestly. Probably best option for a Vrabel team.

Barring him getting an obscure college job, there's no chance McDaniels gets another HC gig.

 

[lancerman]

Because it would require the quarterbacks, and the rest of the offense to learn an entirely new system. There's a half dozen other OCs in the same tier as McDaniels who run WCO or similar.

Who also doesn't limit which WR's you can use because you need people who can learn the different EP concepts and when to change routes to stay on the same page as the QB.

 

[Sect140]

Did you read the quote from Kyle Shanahan on analytics I think from the same reddit thread? Basically, says the same thing as Vrabel but more detailed. He says analytics is a tool but can't compensate for certain factors and thus it needs to be used as a tool and not a be all. Vrabel same thing.

The Browns are one of the more analytic oriented teams in the NFL and he was just there for a year.
Also, from after they fired Vrabel

The Titans wanted to make this season about evolving and modernizing their process behind the scenes. Building a roster with an increased reliance on analytics has been a big part of that. Vrabel wasn’t resistant to using analytics on the field — he and his coaching staff believed they used data-based decision-making as much as anyone and often get credit around the league for being one of the top situational football teams in the NFL. However, the coaches never felt informed on how the new personnel department was using analytics in its process, a team source said.

Honestly, when I first heard Vrabel I had a lot of doubts, old school, run the ball, doesn't rely on analytics, smash mouth football guy. Now that I've read about him the guy has a pretty high, maybe even brilliant, football mind.

You and Kyle are spot on. Analytics is a tool to be used with everything else they have at their disposal to assist them with in game decisions amongst other things. Baseball (see Red Sox) seem to base every decision off analytics.

 

[Froob]

You and Kyle are spot on. Analytics is a tool to be used with everything else they have at their disposal to assist them with in game decisions amongst other things. Baseball (see Red Sox) seem to base every decision off analytics.

Vrabel is absolutely not Belichick. He will be aggressive.

 

[Love The Drake]

Vrabel is absolutely not Belichick. He will be aggressive.

I can think of 2 times Vrabel moved in front of us in the draft to take players majority of the board wanted. Had me cussing at Vrabel in my living room.

 

[TomPatriot]

You and Kyle are spot on. Analytics is a tool to be used with everything else they have at their disposal to assist them with in game decisions amongst other things. Baseball (see Red Sox) seem to base every decision off analytics.

Sabean won two World Series and was probably the least analytics GM ever.

 

[maust]

A contrarian opinion i found

That's a **** take that completely ignores Ran Carthorn's insanely bad roster churning the past two seasons. It's no surpsrise Vrabel had headbutts with his GM, Carthorn sucks. The proof is in the pudding. A year ago Strunk chose Carthorn over Vrabel. This year without Vrabel they went 3-14 and she fired Carthorn. Strunk's decision stunk

 

[Headcase]

Had enough of him. He first took the offense to the next level in 07, then when he comes back he wins 3 SBs, and he sticks around for the one season Mac made the playoffs.

He obviously failed as a HC but I don't understand why anyone around here wouldn't love to have him as an OC.

You should really go back to old gamethreads and see how annoyed everyone was about JDs play calling.

 

[signbabybrady]

Because it would require the quarterbacks, and the rest of the offense to learn an entirely new system. There's a half dozen other OCs in the same tier as McDaniels who run WCO or similar.

Wouldn't they be learning a new system under Johnson anyway too?

You seem really smart with this sort of stuff what do you know about Johnson's offense.

I read this other day and it seems he has a hybrid which combines some things Martz did numbers based, with the Manning offense and some West Coast. And it even says he has some influence from Gary Tranquil who had some overlap with Bill and Saban.

Unraveling the many influences on Ben Johnson and the Detroit Lions' offensive scheme

Offensive coordinator Ben Johnson has had a number of influences as he's risen in the NFL coaching ranks and helped the Lions' offense take off.

www.detroitnews.com

 

[Headcase]

Because it would require the quarterbacks, and the rest of the offense to learn an entirely new system. There's a half dozen other OCs in the same tier as McDaniels who run WCO or similar.

For better or worse BJohnson's offense is based on the EP system as well

 

[signbabybrady]

Who also doesn't limit which WR's you can use because you need people who can learn the different EP concepts and when to change routes to stay on the same page as the QB.

I kind of thought option routes depending on defensive sets is very common regardless of system but maybe I'm wrong on that.

 

[203Pat]

I have always been more pro-Josh than most, but I hate this if it's true. I get that Vrabel isn't part of Bill's coaching tree, and I won't be mad if he does end up as the head coach, but do we really need to recycle the same guys over and over? Josh did good things here, but we need to move on and update the offense to something that is modern and not just stick to the same old, same old. All of that is what makes Ben Johnson the most appealing candidate to me. It is a fresh start. A clean slate. No ties to the dynasty, no ties to Brady and Bill. Maybe Ben Johnson comes here and falls on his face, but in my opinion, the ceiling with him is higher than it is with Vrabel and McDaniels.

 

[TommyD4207]

Wouldn't they be learning a new system under Johnson anyway too?

You seem really smart with this sort of stuff what do you know about Johnson's offense.

I read this other day and it seems he has a hybrid which combines some things Martz did numbers based, with the Manning offense and some West Coast. And it even says he has some influence from Gary Tranquil who had some overlap with Bill and Saban.

Unraveling the many influences on Ben Johnson and the Detroit Lions' offensive scheme

Offensive coordinator Ben Johnson has had a number of influences as he's risen in the NFL coaching ranks and helped the Lions' offense take off.

www.detroitnews.com

"Numbers Based" is West Coast Offense, or some close variation of it. It's what distinguishes it from the E-P and the Coryell/Air Raid.

The plays themselves, and how they're called on gameday, is what distinguishes one OC from another - the main concern with learning a new system, especially for a younger team - knowing the correct terminology is the first step in running the plays correctly. When McDaniels looks for 'Hoss Y Juke', and the players have to take an extra second to translate how that's different from the numbers, it's just a potential for confusion that I'd personally rather they didn't have.

Josh was an excellent gameday playcaller, I'm not diminishing his ability in the slightest, I would just rather not have an whole new system being brought in, where they'd have to waste time learning new terminology. They've got enough things to learn on their plate, other than if something's pronounced tomato or tomahto.

 

[signbabybrady]

You should really go back to old gamethreads and see how annoyed everyone was about JDs play calling.

Everyone's going to have their gripes about that sort of stuff I thought he had a pretty good grasp on when to be more aggressive or less, and when to pull out the tricks. Sure he might have relied a little heavy on the second down draw play after a failed first down or whatever else I can remember complaining about but everyone will have things like that.

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

Same here, I’m straddling the fence.

I would be happy with either Vrabel or BJ, but I prefer Vrabel. I would take the experienced HC who took his team with a below average QB to the AFCCG over a rookie HC who is considered an offensive genius anyday!

 

[signbabybrady]

"Numbers Based" is West Coast Offense, or some close variation of it. It's what distinguishes it from the E-P and the Coryell/Air Raid.

The plays themselves, and how they're called on gameday, is what distinguishes one OC from another - the main concern with learning a new system, especially for a younger team - knowing the correct terminology is the first step in running the plays correctly. When McDaniels looks for 'Hoss Y Juke', and the players have to take an extra second to translate how that's different from the numbers, it's just a potential for confusion that I'd personally rather they didn't have.

Josh was an excellent gameday playcaller, I'm not diminishing his ability in the slightest, I would just rather not have an whole new system being brought in, where they'd have to waste time learning new terminology. They've got enough things to learn on their plate, other than if something's pronounced tomato or tomahto.

Was AVP running a numbers based system though? Or are they learning something new regardless? I guess there would be more overlap.

I get the fear about switching offenses but I wouldn't let that fear dictate my HC choices and the OC he thinks best for his staff.

 

[Grogan14]

I have always been more pro-Josh than most, but I hate this if it's true. I get that Vrabel isn't part of Bill's coaching tree, and I won't be mad if he does end up as the head coach, but do we really need to recycle the same guys over and over? Josh did good things here, but we need to move on and update the offense to something that is modern and not just stick to the same old, same old. All of that is what makes Ben Johnson the most appealing candidate to me. It is a fresh start. A clean slate. No ties to the dynasty, no ties to Brady and Bill. Maybe Ben Johnson comes here and falls on his face, but in my opinion, the ceiling with him is higher than it is with Vrabel and McDaniels.

Everything old becomes new again at some time

 

[signbabybrady]

For better or worse BJohnson's offense is based on the EP system as well

"Numbers Based" is West Coast Offense, or some close variation of it. It's what distinguishes it from the E-P and the Coryell/Air Raid.

The plays themselves, and how they're called on gameday, is what distinguishes one OC from another - the main concern with learning a new system, especially for a younger team - knowing the correct terminology is the first step in running the plays correctly. When McDaniels looks for 'Hoss Y Juke', and the players have to take an extra second to translate how that's different from the numbers, it's just a potential for confusion that I'd personally rather they didn't have.

Josh was an excellent gameday playcaller, I'm not diminishing his ability in the slightest, I would just rather not have an whole new system being brought in, where they'd have to waste time learning new terminology. They've got enough things to learn on their plate, other than if something's pronounced tomato or tomahto.

Hmmm so is it west Coast or EP? Or is there more overlap between the 2 then we realize.