Content Post The Official Vrabel vs Ben Johnson Discussion Thread

[Love The Drake]

The Pats didn't fire Mayo so they can hire Vrabel. Vrabel isn't signing anytime soon, so firing Mayo Sunday night was because he needed to be fired.

Why wait? There was no reason to. I am not even certain Vrabel is the guy anyways.

Question is if we lose out on both we need a plan C and D, we need more interviews.

 

[Ross12]

For those of us who think Vrabel got screwed over by the Titans firing Jon Robinson and then putting Ran Carthon in at GM over him, who sucks ass...



Guy made it 2 years. Now whoever they bring in is stuck with Brian Callahan. Another "arranged marriage". I don't think the Titans' ownership is particularly good.

 

[WinstonSmith]

Vrabel is the safe pick. Johnson is the bold, high risk, high reward pick. He's exciting. If he succeeds, he could be the next McVey or McDermott. If he fails, he sets the organization back 10 years. Vrabel, paired with a young, smart and innovative OC is easily the more conservative move. Krafts know what they are getting, Vrabel knows what he's getting into. He's a clean match.

I understand this line of thinking, but disagree with the conclusions.

I agree that Vrabel is the safer pick if your end goal is respectability, but I'd wager that Johnson has a higher chance of delivering multiple superbowls. The importance of having high end stability on the offensive side paired with a young up and coming QB trumps anything that Vrabel brings to the table.

I'd argue that Vrabel not only has a smaller potential upside, but his profile of competent but not great has a better chance (than a complete bust) of setting a team back long term, as
hidden within the "safer" pick is the chance of experiencing the purgatory of having a HC that delivers good but not great results over a long period of time (good enough to stay employed but not good enough to win it all).

Vrabel hasn't shown brilliance as a coordinator let alone as a head coach. Let's shoot for excellence...again and again if necessary.

 

[Love The Drake]

I understand this line of thinking, but disagree with the conclusions.

I agree that Vrabel is the safer pick if your end goal is respectability, but I'd wager that Johnson has a higher chance of delivering multiple superbowls. The importance of having high end stability on the offensive side paired with a young up and coming QB trumps anything that Vrabel brings to the table.

I'd argue that Vrabel not only has a smaller potential upside, but his profile of competent but not great has a better chance (than a complete bust) of setting a team back long term as
hidden within the "safer" pick is the chance of experiencing the purgatory of having a HC that delivers good but not great results over a long period of time (good enough to stay employed but not good enough to win it all).

Vrabel hasn't shown brilliance as a coordinator let alone as a head coach. Let's shoot for excellence...again and again if necessary.

Ben Johnson might be the Offensive Version of Belichick.

 

[Steve102]

I understand this line of thinking, but disagree with the conclusions.

I agree that Vrabel is the safer pick if your end goal is respectability, but I'd wager that Johnson has a higher chance of delivering multiple superbowls. The importance of having high end stability on the offensive side paired with a young up and coming QB trumps anything that Vrabel brings to the table.

I'd argue that Vrabel not only has a smaller potential upside, but his profile of competent but not great has a better chance (than a complete bust) of setting a team back long term as
hidden within the "safer" pick is the chance of experiencing the purgatory of having a HC that delivers good but not great results over a long period of time (good enough to stay employed but not good enough to win it all).

Vrabel hasn't shown brilliance as a coordinator let alone as a head coach. Let's shoot for excellence...again and again if necessary.

I respect your opinion, regardless of what this gif says.

 

[Zuma]

Ben Johnson might be the Offensive Version of Belichick.

Bill's 1st season coaching he was 6-10...so that would be an improvement. Then he went 7-9 twice the next 2 years. Johnson wouldn't last as long with how things are nowadays.

 

[WinstonSmith]

I respect your opinion, regardless of what this gif says.

WinstonSmith abides.

 

[raduray]

Vrabel is the safe pick. Johnson is the bold, high risk, high reward pick. He's exciting. If he succeeds, he could be the next McVey or McDermott. If he fails, he sets the organization back 10 years. Vrabel, paired with a young, smart and innovative OC is easily the more conservative move. Krafts know what they are getting, Vrabel knows what he's getting into. He's a clean match.

Who's the young, smart and innovative OC that you'd lose in a few years if successful?

 

[Trocadile]

It's been suggested by some that Vrabel would bring Tommy Rees from the Browns to be OC.

 

[raduray]

Lots of talk here about Vrebel and an elite OC. So who's that elite OC? Not going to be able to poach any current successful OC's as their teams won't release them from their contracts. So who among assistants or available retreads are we talking about? And isn't that as much of a gamble as Ben Johnson as HC?

 

[Steve102]

Who's the young, smart and innovative OC that you'd lose in a few years if successful?

Charlie Weis
Bill O'Brien
Josh McDaniels

Good first world problems to have.

Not sure your point. Can't hire or not hire a guy based on the fact that they might lose a coordinator or two if they win. You hire Johnson, you have an offensive coach, you win, you lose coordinators. You hire Vrabel, you win, you lose coordinators. I'm not sweating that, coming off back to back 4 win seasons. Hire the right guy, start building.

We aren't even talking about the poaching of personnel people when and if they start winning again.

To answer your question: I have no idea who the fresh young mind is. That's Vrabel's job to figure out. Or Johnson's job. Either one, I am good with, just saying Vrabel is the safer pick. Someone else said Johnson has more upside. He might, hard telling. Head Coach's greatness in the NFL is directly tied to having a great QB. Is Maye a great QB? Might be. We have no idea. But every single one of the great coaches in league history with the exception of Joe Gibbs has had a great QB.

 

[Mack Herron]

 

[Headcase]

Here’s the Jaguars’ most recent list:

They are doing it right.
Not even bothering with Defense.
See Vrabels are kind of dinosaurs today.

Want to tell me what side of the football those last 3 names coached?

 

[Headcase]

Brady is a 5% owner, I think he is there just to give the cash poor Davis liquidity

 

[Hugepatsfan]

Vrabel seems like the type of guy who can get the culture turned around. Playing hard and tough, accountable, all of that. He's got a solid track record there. Even though his background is on defense, he only was a coordinator and called plays for one year (on a defense that sucked). He seems more a head of program type of guy who relies on coordinators for the Xs and Os, and while he was in TEN those coordinator positions seemed like revolving doors.

Even now, it doesn't seem like there are firm connections he had for personnel positions or his coordinators. He's been a head coach before but he kind of hodge-podged the staff each year vs. actually having a rooted "coaching tree". He took over a TEN team that was middle of the pack (not actually bad) and helped them turn that on paper talent into some immediate success, but over time the schemes and the personnel seemed to fade.

Vrabel's track record points to an ability to get quick results. And that's good. But I didn't see a good track record of actually running the organization over the long haul while he was in TEN. He needed more stability/consistent direction in his coaching staff and butted heads with the personnel people. Seems like the personnel side of things might have been misguided, meddling owners to some degree so maybe give him some kind of pass there, but the coaching staff seems to be on him.

Fans pick their favorite candidate and make it out to be like the team has to sell them in the interview process. I very much think that it should be a true interview. The Krafts have to answer prospective coaches questions about how things will be managed here, but it's a two-way street. They need to come with prepared questions about why these guys failed in the past (Vrabel) or how they think they could fail in the future (Johnson) and ask how these guys have taken steps to learn from that or in the case of Johnson prepare for it.

 

[Steve102]

Brady is a 5% owner, I think he is there just to give the cash poor Davis liquidity

Do you think he only carries 5% influence?

 

[Lagaffe_07]

Do you think he only carries 5% influence?

Brady isn’t running the franchise, Mark Davis is. If Vrabel take that job he will work for Mark Davis not Tom Brady.

I also think that Vrabel has a bigger relationship with the Krafts than with Brady. The Krafts are way more stable owners than Clown Davis

 

[Stu Pidassle]

For those of us who think Vrabel got screwed over by the Titans firing Jon Robinson and then putting Ran Carthon in at GM over him, who sucks ass...



Guy made it 2 years. Now whoever they bring in is stuck with Brian Callahan. Another "arranged marriage". I don't think the Titans' ownership is particularly good.

This is a good reminder of the important relationship between coaching and the front office. I would be happy to have either candidate, the deciding factor for me is who they will bring along for personnel and coordinator roles. Any candidate that does not have a GM to work with is automatically disqualified from the search.

 

[PScottman]

Do you think he only carries 5% influence

Is that metric or imperial 5%?

 

[ViperGTS]

Question is if we lose out on both we need a plan C and D, we need more interviews.

Good point there. I wonder what the fall back plan is if that were to happen. I truly don't know which way I would lean personally. I would be interested to know what Vrabel's plan would be for the OC. Thats a big thing.