The Official Vrabel vs Ben Johnson Discussion Thread

[Steve102]

Vrabel yesterday, today and tomorrow. He has EXPERIENCE RUNNING A PROGRAM enhanced by institutional knowledge of the Patriots. Johnson is a wildcard. Please, no more first-year risks with this team's ongoing rebuild.

Vrabel is the safe pick. Johnson is the bold, high risk, high reward pick. He's exciting. If he succeeds, he could be the next McVey or McDermott. If he fails, he sets the organization back 10 years. Vrabel, paired with a young, smart and innovative OC is easily the more conservative move. Krafts know what they are getting, Vrabel knows what he's getting into. He's a clean match.

 

[Love The Drake]

If I was HC or GM I would be signing and cutting people every hour.
Scouring the globe for talent.
No negative attitudes, first time is a warning and comped counseling with a team therapist. Where I will have access to the audio. Second time is extreme psycho therapy. Third time is traded to the Browns or executed. I mean released.

 

[Water Boy]

I honestly don't know where this comes from. Vrabel is as strong defensively as his DC. His 1 year as Houston DC they were 32nd in points and 20th in yards. That was a season after RAC had them 11th in points and 1st in yards and the 1 year in Tennessee when they didn't have a DC they were 24th in points allowed and 28th in yards allowed. While Arthur Smith had the offense 4th in points and 2nd in yards.

Look closer at the years that Tennessee had an official DC

2018- Dean Pees- 3rd in points & 8th in yards
2019- Dean Pees- 12th & 21st
2020- No DC- 24th & 28th
2021- Shane Bowen- 6th & 12th
2022- Shane Bowen- 14th & 23rd
2023- Shane Bowen- 16th & 18th

So I would say Vrabel teams have had 2 strong defensive years out of 7. But mostly his team's defenses have been middle of the pack.

It's why I lean slightly towards Ben Johnson. He's been calling some like all-time great offense type stuff the last couple of years, obviously he has better personnel but Lions been a top 5 offense in both points and yards for 3 straight years with Jared Goff as QB. Same Jared Goff who with McVay Belichick and Flores made look like a J.A.G in a Superbowl.

So with Johnson you know you are getting a top of the league offensive playcaller With Vrabel he had 3 OC's in Tennessee, Arthur Smith, Matt LaFleur and Todd Downing. Matt LaFleur is obviously off the table. Arthur Smith since it's not a promotion Pittsburgh would probably block it, which leaves Todd Downing, which I would ****ing dread him being the OC. But maybe Vrabel would have someone different.

I don't know I think I just prefer going the road of the clear best OC the last 3 years knowing the offense would have a guy that has been an elite playcaller over "I wonder who Vrabel is gonna pick for OC and DC"

That's some good context. Does Vrabel run a traditional 2 gap based system like the Pats?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Vrabel is the safe pick. Johnson is the bold, high risk, high reward pick. He's exciting. If he succeeds, he could be the next McVey or McDermott. If he fails, he sets the organization back 10 years. Vrabel, paired with a young, smart and innovative OC is easily the more conservative move. Krafts know what they are getting, Vrabel knows what he's getting into. He's a clean match.

I see it the same way.

 

[Steve102]

@Tunescribe

I see it the same way.

I wanted to add to my above post: Johnson isn't an unknown. Someone posted he has connections to Ron wolf. Worked under Patricia as Offense QC. He should have a handle on what to expect in Foxboro.

 

[upstater1]

I already weighed in elsewhere on this.

I want Wolf out. That's priority #1. If Johnson brings along a good GM and Vrabel doesn't, I'd take Johnson.

If Vrabel brings along a good GM, I take Vrabel.

One underrated thing to consider is that Vrabel's OCs made Ryan Tannehill look like a really good QB.

In terms of dotting their Xs and Os and looking competent, Vrabel's Titans looked well coached.

I remain a believer that this team still has a lot of talent on defense, but incompetent coaching made them look bad. The offense needs a huge overhaul.

Many teams don't have a slew of players like Gonzalez, Barmore, Dugger, Marcus Jones, Peppers, and then a decent cast behind them (Bentley, Wise, Jennings, even Mapu and Austin). Don't get me wrong, they still need several players, like a pass rusher, LBs, a FS and a CB, but they aren't far off like the offense is.

If you can protect Maye and get him a WR, then find a pass rusher, this is a playoff team. If you can then fill in with good starters at FS and LB, this team becomes a contender.

 

[RobertWeathers]

@Tunescribe

I wanted to add to my above post: Johnson isn't an unknown. Someone posted he has connections to Ron wolf. Worked under Patricia as Offense QC. He should have a handle on what to expect in Foxboro.

Correct. Joe Philbin/Mike Sherman were in GB under Ron Wolf. Joe Philbin/Sherman were HC/OC in MIA when Johnson was a positional coach. Eliot i'm sure is familiar with him.

...and Dan Campbell was in MIA at that time. He knew Johnson already when he got to DET.

 

[upstater1]

Vrabel is the safe pick. Johnson is the bold, high risk, high reward pick. He's exciting. If he succeeds, he could be the next McVey or McDermott. If he fails, he sets the organization back 10 years. Vrabel, paired with a young, smart and innovative OC is easily the more conservative move. Krafts know what they are getting, Vrabel knows what he's getting into. He's a clean match.

Not sure what you mean by McDermott. He's very similar to Vrabel, and the Bills are built like the old Patriots, with a lot of depth and very few stars. The Bills only problem has been the on/off switch between their bad/good offensive coordinators (Dennison/Daboll/Dorsey/Brady) and the same with their D-coordinators (Frazier/Babich).

McDermott really is similar to Vrabel.

I have to say I'm not a big fan of McVay's.

For a team with so much top talent, they have underperformed in off years. They have reached the heights 2x and then been underwhelming the rest of the time. Yet they have a huge amount of Pro Bowlers.

I give McVay and the GM a lot of credit for drafting ability.

Something is missing in the coaching.

 

[Lavictoire]

Have to go Vrable with the experience. Big question is the DC/OC.

 

[Steve102]

Not sure what you mean by McDermott. He's very similar to Vrabel, and the Bills are built like the old Patriots, with a lot of depth and very few stars. The Bills only problem has been the on/off switch between their bad/good offensive coordinators (Dennison/Daboll/Dorsey/Brady) and the same with their D-coordinators (Frazier/Babich).

McDermott really is similar to Vrabel.

I have to say I'm not a big fan of McVay's.

For a team with so much top talent, they have underperformed in off years. They have reached the heights 2x and then been underwhelming the rest of the time. Yet they have a huge amount of Pro Bowlers.

I give McVay and the GM a lot of credit for drafting ability.

Something is missing in the coaching.

Young, respected HC. That's all.

Re: McVey. He's got the ring.

Both coaches have the misfortune of going up against the outgoing dynasty (Pats) and trying to stop the new dynasty (Chiefs).

 

[lancerman]

I think with Vrabel it is all about who he installs as his OC and with Johnson it is more about how good of a leader he can be.

Vrabel is a good leader and very strategic, but he needs to get an OC who can fix the offense and put Maye in a position to shine. It is positive that Vrabel's consulting position this year was on offense, but it still isn't his wheelhouse even though he is going to be the head coach with the most receiving TDs in his professional career.

With Johnson, it is all about whether he can go to the next level. Not all OCs can do it (see Josh McDaniels). Of course he needs a strong DC, but I think that is easier to find since the league is more focused on offense.

I think Vrabel has a far higher floor, but I am not sure he has a higher ceiling. Tough to tell. If Johnson can do the magic he did with Goff on Maye, he might have a higher ceiling because Maye is far more talented than Goff.

This is where I'm at. Vrabel has a floor where the team won't be the dreadful mess it is with Mayo, but he's also not going to elevate the team far beyond their abilities. He'll make the playoffs if you give him a talented team, he MIGHT even go deep if you give him a super talented team. But odds are, he'll run into a team that is just clicking with a coach who is performing above his paygrade (like Andy Reid) and makes his team pull magic out their ass and will get bounced.

I'm also not sold that he can really handle an offense without a highly talented coordinator and the Pats have had offensive issues for a long time. I really don't want to be at the mercy of whoever Vrabel can find and then watching them walk out the door once they have a little success.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not sure what you mean by McDermott. He's very similar to Vrabel, and the Bills are built like the old Patriots, with a lot of depth and very few stars. The Bills only problem has been the on/off switch between their bad/good offensive coordinators (Dennison/Daboll/Dorsey/Brady) and the same with their D-coordinators (Frazier/Babich).

McDermott really is similar to Vrabel.

I have to say I'm not a big fan of McVay's.

For a team with so much top talent, they have underperformed in off years. They have reached the heights 2x and then been underwhelming the rest of the time. Yet they have a huge amount of Pro Bowlers.

I give McVay and the GM a lot of credit for drafting ability.

Something is missing in the coaching.

Dude.

McVay is 80-52 7-4 in the playoffs. 2 SBs w/ one win w/ 2 different QBs. Hes only had 1 losing season and he was in cap jail.

I would trade our 1st pick for him. Easy.

Give him Maye and hes a Pro Bowler.

 

[yukon cornelius]

I'd want assurances that Johnson is not another Mcdaniel - offensive guru with little to no HC chops.......Miami is an early season hero that falls apart when it counts, and looks like it is really falling apart now........how can we be assured Johnson is not another great offensive mind that doesn't have the skills to be a HC - they are two different skillsets - heck, see none other than Josh McDaniels for this - he tried to be a BB clone and just came off as an *******, and his teams folded

the high risk/reward analogy is a good one.........Vraebel with a high-talent OC might just have a higher hit rate than taking the chance on Johnson......he coached under campbell for a year in miami, and now 5 years in Detroit.....he worked under Philbin & Gase in Miami, under mostly Spaziani at BC......

gase was a ****show, philbin was fairly competent, as is campbell....both fairly demanding, albeit different styles......

it really comes down to the interview, and do they believe Johnson has the chops to be a HC, what his style is going to be - the NFL trend is clear, the OC to HC pipeline is well established.......just wondering if I trust the Patriots brain trust to make this call

 

[upstater1]

Dude.

McVay is 80-52 7-4 in the playoffs. 2 SBs w/ one win w/ 2 different QBs. Hes only had 1 losing season and he was in cap jail.

I would trade our 1st pick for him. Easy.

Give him Maye and hes a Pro Bowler.

The 2 Super Bowl runs were very good. But what stuck with me is the way he cuddled up to Belichick and the way his whole offensive system was depants'd.

Those playoff wins were racked up in those 2 years.

He has a timing offense that comes up short often.

Another thing I hold against him is the worst Super Bowl I've seen since the 1970s. It was an embarrassingly bad Super Bowl in terms of execution, and the defenses played patty-cake.

But yes, I give him credit for all that talent. They are a supremely talented team, at WR, RB, DBs, DLs. Loaded with Pro Bowlers.

 

[Grogan14]

Big concern I have with BJ is that yes he is an offensive genius BUT can he control and inspire a locker room? It is not easy.
He seems a bit quiet and introspective.
I am confident Vrabel will command respect...he has done it before!!
Also confident he can assemble a great staff as he has connections throughout the league.
BJ is riskier. I would love to see Vrabel take charge.

By the way there are some potential very good OC's out there like Doug Pederson that Vrabel could probably convince to join his staff.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The 2 Super Bowl runs were very good. But what stuck with me is the way he cuddled up to Belichick and the way his whole offensive system was depants'd.

Those playoff wins were racked up in those 2 years.

He has a timing offense that comes up short often.

Another thing I hold against him is the worst Super Bowl I've seen since the 1970s. It was an embarrassingly bad Super Bowl in terms of execution, and the defenses played patty-cake.

But yes, I give him credit for all that talent. They are a supremely talented team, at WR, RB, DBs, DLs. Loaded with Pro Bowlers.

Meh. He was young Skywalker vs Vader in ESB. He wasn't ready. He was 33. He sucked up to BB. Whatever. The stage got too big for Goff and maybe for McVay Not having Cooper Kupp and Gurley running on one leg caught up with them vs us.

 

[upstater1]

Meh. He was young Skywalker vs Vader in ESB. He wasn't ready. He was 33. He sucked up to BB. Whatever. The stage got too big for Goff and maybe for McVay Not having Cooper Kupp and Gurley running on one leg caught up with them vs us.

I should've been more specific. I was really talking about the Bengals Super Bowl, that's the one I found more underwhelming. The 2019 Super Bowl was a thing of beauty.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I should've been more specific. I was really talking about the Bengals Super Bowl, that's the one I found more underwhelming. The 2019 Super Bowl was a thing of beauty.

Yea it was a ho-hum game. Bengals were playing well. LA wasn't as sharp but they won. It counts.

I tell ya....they have a shot this year again.

 

[Rob0729]

This is where I'm at. Vrabel has a floor where the team won't be the dreadful mess it is with Mayo, but he's also not going to elevate the team far beyond their abilities. He'll make the playoffs if you give him a talented team, he MIGHT even go deep if you give him a super talented team. But odds are, he'll run into a team that is just clicking with a coach who is performing above his paygrade (like Andy Reid) and makes his team pull magic out their ass and will get bounced.

I'm also not sold that he can really handle an offense without a highly talented coordinator and the Pats have had offensive issues for a long time. I really don't want to be at the mercy of whoever Vrabel can find and then watching them walk out the door once they have a little success.

IDK, I think Vrabel might be able to be an elite head coach. Not sure if that is his ceiling yet though. He had a lot working against him in Tennessee from a mediocre QB to a GM who undermined him.

He still isn't my first choice, but I think he could end up being a great head coach on his second go around.

 

[Sect140]

I think Vrabel and Johnson tell Kraft they are bringing their own GM and it’s not open for discussion.