The Official Vrabel vs Ben Johnson Discussion Thread

[dliverey44]

You realize he barely has a winning record right?

He's essentially a .500 coach.

Vrabel will bring law and order but what else is he bringing? He certainly isn't bringing any evidence that he knows a thing or two about QB play.

Vrabel thus far is who he is. He wins a game he loses a game. He makes the playoffs he misses the playoffs.

Maybe you're ok with that because the last 5 years have sucked but let's keep expectations in order here. We're not getting a world class coach. We're getting a serviceable coach.

Everything you said also applied to BB when he came to New England as HC, he was 36-44 in cleveland and made the playoffs once in 5 years.

 

[Kdo5]

I think I’d lean Johnson….but I’d want to know what the whole package is who he’s bringing with him.

I’d say the same for Vrabel, who’s he bringing? I’m more confident that Johnson would have the right people than Vrabel on the offensive side of the ball in particular.

 

[Tunescribe]

Everything you said also applied to BB when he came to New England as HC, he was 36-44 in cleveland and made the playoffs once in 5 years.

It's difficult trying to reason with a guy who believes QB and WR are the only viable positions in football.

 

[lancerman]

Vrabel did well with average rosters (nobody at quarterback) going 54-45 making the playoffs in three of his six seasons, four of which had winning records. He was NFL Coach of the Year just three seasons ago. Ben Johnson has ONLY THREE YEARS EXPERIENCE AS A COORDINATOR! He is an unknown commodity beyond that re. running an entire program, let alone one in full-blown rebuild mode. Right -- "let's keep expectations in order here." Put down your Madden controller and step away from the shiny new toy with a fragile disposition that just might go haywire at the drop of a hat.

He didn't have average rosters. The years you keep bringing up where he made the playoffs he had a HOF RB who is the best of his era by a country mile, a top 5 WR, a top 10 line, a QB playing like a top 10 QB and a defense with pro bowlers or All Pros at nearly every level.

The closest he had to an "average" roster was the last two years which got him fired. He relied on running Derrick Henry into the dirt and couldn't win a thing the minute AJ Brown walked out the door.

He doesn't elevate his teams. One year with a loaded team he beat a Patriots team that was limping into the playoffs and a Ravens team that has since showed they don't show up in the playoffs and then got downed by real contender. Every other year after besides that he failed to win a playoff game.

We know what he is. He's a guy that coaches to the talent level of his team. If you give him one of the best rosters in the NFL, he'll make the playoffs, but unless he catches two pretenders off guard, he's just going to get beat by a good team with real aspirations. And if he doesn't have that, he'll be mediocre.

 

[festy1986]

Vrabel did well with average rosters (nobody at quarterback) going 54-45 making the playoffs in three of his six seasons, four of which had winning records. He was NFL Coach of the Year just three seasons ago. Ben Johnson has ONLY THREE YEARS EXPERIENCE AS A COORDINATOR! He is an unknown commodity beyond that re. running an entire program, let alone one in full-blown rebuild mode. Right -- "let's keep expectations in order here." Put down your Madden controller and step away from the shiny new toy with a fragile disposition that just might go haywire at the drop of a hat.

So you're point is that Vrabel is a .500 coach.

Which was also my point?

 

[festy1986]

Everything you said also applied to BB when he came to New England as HC, he was 36-44 in cleveland and made the playoffs once in 5 years.

I don't know why people want to continue to talk about Bill Belichick without acknowledging that he had the greatest player of all time.

If the Patriots have a quarterback who's as good as Tom Brady then Mike Vrabel will do just fine.

 

[TheRainMaker]

It should be Johnson as he is the hottest coaching candidate in the NFL right now. Bob got Bill in 2000 when he was also the hottest coaching candidate in the NFL for what he did the last 3 seasons in New York. More specifically, it was what he did against Drew Bledsoe and the 6-2 super bowl favorite Pats in Foxboro on MNF and Peyton Manning during the 1999 season.

If Johnson doesn't take a job this season, I'd look at it as a major red flag as an Owner. This was what McDaniels did a lot during his time in NE constantly finding reasons to stay and was badly exposed once he finally took a job. Adam Gase ****ed around too turning down the 49ers job in 2015 because he didn't want Jim Tomsula forced on as DC.

 

[dliverey44]

I found this article from last year when Johnson was viewed as the front runner for the Washington job. Looks like last year people felt Hank Fraley would be BJ's OC choice. Might not apply now but found it interesting

NFL insider reveals Ben Johnson’s potential OC if he lands a head coaching job

 

[Tunescribe]

So you're point is that Vrabel is a .500 coach.

Which was also my point?

It was .545, not .500, but you're harping on the wrong thing. The "point" (besides the one atop your head) is proven track record running a full program vs. another neophyte with relatively little experience, as successful as his limited coordinator stint might be.

 

[festy1986]

It was .545, not .500, but you're harping on the wrong thing. The "point" (besides the one atop your head) is proven track record running a full program vs. another neophyte with relatively little experience, as successful as his limited coordinator stint might be.

Yes. He's a middling coach. We got it.

Johnson is a unknown.

I got it.

Neither one of those things qualifies or disqualifies either candidate.

 

[Tunescribe]

He didn't have average rosters. The years you keep bringing up where he made the playoffs he had a HOF RB who is the best of his era by a country mile, a top 5 WR, a top 10 line, a QB playing like a top 10 QB and a defense with pro bowlers or All Pros at nearly every level.

The closest he had to an "average" roster was the last two years which got him fired. He relied on running Derrick Henry into the dirt and couldn't win a thing the minute AJ Brown walked out the door.

He doesn't elevate his teams. One year with a loaded team he beat a Patriots team that was limping into the playoffs and a Ravens team that has since showed they don't show up in the playoffs and then got downed by real contender. Every other year after besides that he failed to win a playoff game.

We know what he is. He's a guy that coaches to the talent level of his team. If you give him one of the best rosters in the NFL, he'll make the playoffs, but unless he catches two pretenders off guard, he's just going to get beat by a good team with real aspirations. And if he doesn't have that, he'll be mediocre.

I know you dislike Vrabel, I thought we've already agreed to disagree on what he potentially brings to the table if hired here. He's likely coming aboard so you'll have the opportunity to either stew about it and be miserable or actively root for the man to succeed. At least I will be relieved, so there's that.

 

[Tunescribe]

Johnson reportedly covets Chicago:

NFL Rumors: Lions' Ben Johnson Believed to Have Eyed Bears HC Job After 2023 Season

Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson surprised many when he chose not to take a head coaching position last offseason, but he reportedly was eyeing…

bleacherreport.com

 

[Love The Drake]

Johnson reportedly covets Chicago:

NFL Rumors: Lions' Ben Johnson Believed to Have Eyed Bears HC Job After 2023 Season

Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson surprised many when he chose not to take a head coaching position last offseason, but he reportedly was eyeing…

bleacherreport.com

Johnson reportedly covets Chicago:

NFL Rumors: Lions' Ben Johnson Believed to Have Eyed Bears HC Job After 2023 Season

Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson surprised many when he chose not to take a head coaching position last offseason, but he reportedly was eyeing…

bleacherreport.com

That was before we got Drake Maye
We are in the sweepstakes.

 

[signbabybrady]

I don't know why people want to continue to talk about Bill Belichick without acknowledging that he had the greatest player of all time.

If the Patriots have a quarterback who's as good as Tom Brady then Mike Vrabel will do just fine.

Because Ben Johnson won't win without great players either that's how it works. Great coaches develop great players and then they hopefully win 1 and if you're the greatest of all time like Bill and Brady you win more than anyone.

 

[festy1986]

Because Ben Johnson won't win without great players either that's how it works. Great coaches develop great players and then they hopefully win 1 and if you're the greatest of all time like Bill and Brady you win more than anyone.

That may be true but I still want a coach in here with a offensive playbook in this century. Not one going back 50 years.

Neither one of these guys will have a successful year next year. This team is a 6 or 7 win team at best and that's assuming they nail the draft and free agency. There's too many holes.

So to me it's not about the record going forward it's about picking a program and sticking to it.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

Tell ya what, I glad that Ian upgraded the server right before all this news, because it's going to be a hell of a great off-season around here, and it's going to get a workout.
Regardless of which one we get, we'll be far ahead of where we were this year.

 

[Delicate Genius]

We will cut the job down the middle and give half to each of them.

 

[n1997y]

Here’s a ****ed up thought. What are the chances we don’t land either one. Who do we go after then?

Brian Flores.

 

[n1997y]

Vrabel is my guy but I would be lying if I said I am not extremely intrigued by Johnson. I would be really pleased with either one. Vrabel feels like a better fit for what they “need” to fix what Mayo broke, but Johnson feels like a path to truly revolutionizing this franchise offensively.

My big concern is the undefined support structure, especially the GM role.

I think Vrabel’s experience as HC and especially having dealt with issues in that area in TN gives him vital knowledge that Johnson doesn’t have. Conversely, Johnson not having been HC and run an entire program means he will already have his hands full just from moving up a level, and then having the GM ambiguity on top of that increases the risk exponentially IMO

So that makes Vrabel much better qualified from my perspective..

 

[n1997y]

Vrabel yesterday, today and tomorrow. He has EXPERIENCE RUNNING A PROGRAM enhanced by institutional knowledge of the Patriots. Johnson is a wildcard. Please, no more first-year risks with this team's ongoing rebuild.

Exactly!

And especially with the issues we have around the GM role. Having a first year HC and an unclear GM role is just too much risk.