The Official 'Trade Brady' Debate Thread - Do Not Start Another One

[Grizzafted]

Re: The Official Trade Brady Thread

I'm not losing sight of anything, because the argument you make is not a valid one. That's true on pretty much every level of your argument, by the way.

I've tended to feel throughout my life that the people who are the most vocal about shutting down the views of others are also generally the most irrelevant and easily-surprised at the table. "Well I never saw that coming! Who would have??" You're no exception. Excuse my troubling inability to recognize your brilliance, but why don't you go give Lawrence Maroney a backrub while the rest of us accidentally wipe our asses with our toothbrushes out of sheer idiocy.

You are some kind of textbook example of the type of person you never want on any board, organization, or team. People like you sink companies.

 

[aluminum seats]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aluminum seats
No.....again, what's embarassing are the know-nothings such as yourself who are unable to engage ideas on their merits. And I mean really embarassing--the name-calling and hysteria has been pathetic.

The point is that discussing the issue of the potential long-term worth of Cassel vs. a 32-year-old qb coming off major surgery—even if he’s the greatest qb of all-time—is a perfectly reasonable and legitimate point of discussion, one that the Cold Hard Football Facts went into some detail on. The hysteria by the—nitwits, morons, idiots, mouth-breathers—board members who have seizures when the idea is raised has been embarrassing.

LOL

-------------

Oh my god....you do realize that was ironic, right? Tell me you got that.

 

[aluminum seats]

Re: The Official Trade Brady Thread

I don't care who started it. Argue your point in a way that does not cut on a member of the forum that loves the team as much as you.

And I'm not directing this just to you, please don't take it that way.

I think that this thread can continue to be a productive thread if it's not hijacked by a few arguments from guys and gals that get lost in the moment of an argument.

Sorry. Just a little frustrated with it all today.

I understand that, and genuinely respect the sentiment. But please understand--on the thread that I started on the topic, I wrote a thoughtful post asking for feeback on Cassel's possible upside, and the possibilities involved if Brady's injury lingers, trade thoughts, etc., and many posters (hint: two of them frantically posting now) were frantically trying to shoot down the very conversation.

At a certain point, it seemed that maybe it would be productive to confront them head-on. Doesn't seem to be working though.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: The Official Trade Brady Thread

I've tended to feel throughout my life that the people who are the most vocal about shutting down the views of others are also generally the most irrelevant and easily-surprised at the table. "Well I never saw that coming! Who would have??" You're no exception. Excuse my troubling inability to recognize your brilliance, but why don't you go give Lawrence Maroney a backrub while the rest of us accidentally wipe our asses with our toothbrushes out of sheer idiocy.

You are some kind of textbook example of the type of person you never want on any board, organization, or team. People like you sink companies.

Did you read Alk's argument? Let me re-post it:

Why do you think it would be a bad thing to dump our greatest player ever who very well might not be the same in exchange for some draft picks and possible cap space that would allow our defensive mastermind coach to completely retool our putrid defense while still maintaining a very potent offense. What everyone is loosing site of it that I think the majority of us don't really want to see this happen but on the same hand can see how it would be beneficial to this team.

Now, tell me which part of that argument is valid, given the #9 rating of the defense, the offense that's scored more than 20 points in only 5 of 11 games, the lesser 'haul' of picks that would occur for trying to trade a player coming off of injury when every other team would be wondering why the Patriots would be so willing to move the best QB in the game, and what BB has consistently said about Brady.

You people are pulling a Scott Mitchell revival, and you should all be giving yourselves a timeout until rational thought about football returns to you.

 

[BradyManny]

OK, this is my actual last post on the issue...said I'd be gone, but I'll add this and leave. I was curious to see how QBs have done post ACL injuries.

Here's some of the recent ones:

Phillip Rivers:

(torn January 08, healthy pre-season 08)
Season before injury: 60.2%, 3152 yards, 21 TDs, 15 INTs, 82.4 rating
Season after injury: PROJECTED* based on 11 weeks 65.7 %, 4081 yards, 33 TDs, 15 INTs, 103.3 rating

Conclusion: Rivers has had his best season, by far, after tearing his ACL in January of this year.

Donovan McNabb:

(torn Nov 08, healthy pre-season 08)
Before: 57%, 95.5 rating
After: 61.5%, 89.9 rating

Conclusion: I left out some of the stats b/c both seasons were truncated. Basically, McNabb didn't seem all too affected, again, with a shorter rehab process than Brady has the fortunate of having. McNabb's numbers were pretty unaffected.

Caron Palmer
(torn Jan 08, healthy pre-season 08)

Before: 67.8%, 3836 yards, 32 TDs, 12 INTs, 101.1 rating
After: 62.3%, 4035 yards, 28 TDs, 13 INTs, 93.9 rating

Conclusion: Very similar numbers again, a slight drop in rating offset by an increase in yards.



So there, there are 3 premier QBs who have just gone through what Brady is going through. In all 3 instances, the numbers were comparable, or even in some cases, better. And in all 3 instances, the ACL rehabilitation was shorter than projected. 2 of the 3 were back within the same calendar year, both Palmer and Rivers tearing their knees during playoffs and coming back ready for pre-season ball.

That bodes well for Brady. That's all I have to add on this issue.

 

[ScottieC]

Re: The Official Trade Brady Thread

I understand that, and genuinely respect the sentiment. But please understand--on the thread that I started on the topic, I wrote a thoughtful post asking for feeback on Cassel's possible upside, and the possibilities involved if Brady's injury lingers, trade thoughts, etc., and many posters (hint: two of them frantically posting now) were frantically trying to shoot down the very conversation.

At a certain point, it seemed that maybe it would be productive to confront them head-on. Doesn't seem to be working though.

I hear ya, Bro.

Mo and Deus are passionate about the team and their views. That's the beauty of the board.

Although I admittantly (is that a word?) don't know your posts as well as I know Deus and Mo, I can say that those two represent, in my opinion, two of the best posters around here. I'm not defending anyone actions and they don't need me for that anyway.

Sometimes it helps to take a step back and look at both sides, and again remember most (if not all) really want what's best for Tommy, Matt and the Patriots.

I read more than I post, I'm not that smart , so I've enjoyed this thread and would like to keep it going - There are still some great Patsfans posters out there that have not signed in yet and given their opinion.

 

[Grizzafted]

I've argued and argued and argued this in this thread already, I can't rehash it again.

The point I'm trying to make is that for you to dismiss people as idiots for contemplating this is rash and makes you look foolish and rigid. No, it's probably not a smart move to deal away the greatest quarterback of all time. But you could make a case that it could potentially result in a top 3 defense. If Matt Cassell was able to perform consistently at the level he has been at since the San Diego debacle, that trade would be a no-brainer for me. A total no-brainer. He's playing up to capacity of a Super Bowl quarterback. You don't need to be Tom Brady to get to the Super Bowl. But you generally do need a defense. Last year, if San Diego had its act together, I think we could have lost the AFC championship game. This team is not in great shape defensively, no matter what your "#9 against some atrocious offensive competition" stat implies. There are really serious needs in the defensive backfield and linebacking corps, still. Jerod Mayo didn't singlehandedly save the day.

Now if you coldly step back from the attachment and love for Brady that we all have, the question becomes really simple: can Cassell play up to the level of the last month consistently? If the answer is yes, then I would suggest that there wouldn't be a doubt in my mind that you'd trade Brady for a blockbuster Herschel Walker-style package. Get two 1sts, a 2nd, and a young defensive standout, preferably a middle linebacker. Then you're looking at two consecutive drafts where the Patriots would be able to basically add the value of 5 1st round picks and 4 2nd round picks to their team. With Pioli and Belichick looking at that kind of value on draft day, who the hell knows what they could do. In two years you could be looking at a historic defense (which to me always beats the historic offense). Yeah it's a gamble, but I guess the question is, can Cassell keep it up? If he throws for 300 yards and 3 TDs against Pittsburgh this weekend and then performs well in the playoffs, the Patriots have a decision to make whether you admit it or not. That's where we are. Get used to it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Instead of calling people silly because their opinion differs from them, maybe you should actually discuss the topic at hand. Why do you think it would be a bad thing to dump our greatest player ever who very well might not be the same in exchange for some draft picks and possible cap space that would allow our defensive mastermind coach to completely retool our putrid defense while still maintaining a very potent offense. What everyone is loosing site of it that I think the majority of us don't really want to see this happen but on the same hand can see how it would be beneficial to this team.

I love this rationale. Calling opinion silly is insulting name calling...

All of this has been hashed out in earlier threads and posts but you want to discuss it again? OK...

There is no reason to believe Brady will not be the same based on the athletes (as opposed to posters) who have had this surgery recently. Dumping Brady will not free up cap space - he's only signed for 2 more years and his inescapable $10M dead cap added to the cost of Cassel's contract to replace him over the next two seasons will eat up more cap space (Brady's 2010 cap hit is $10M compared to Manning's $19M). Tom's actual take home over the next TWO seasons is $14.5M...Casssel will get several million more than that in signing bonus/guarantees alone in a long term deal if he's perceived as a viable franchise QB...His deal would average at least $10-11M under that scenario because his agent isn't stupid enough to let him sign a starting deal to replace a legend for less... Not to mention if BB is willing to trade Brady that would send out red flags to every GM with middling interest given the track record of established veteran players Belichick parts company with. Not to mention those GM's would be facing paying Brady tens of millions more to get a deal done with Brady to even remotely justify trading a kings ransom for him. And there's always the chance this moronic FO screws up the draft picks since we all know their track record there in the opinion of the armchair geniuses here...

Cassel franchised and traded was always a best case scenario. Some here who fought that now want to take it to truly idiotic levels and can't understand why anyone would take issue with that since hey, this is just a message board where we all are free to come and spew any opinion we choose in their opinion...and it's all about their opinion, apparently.

 

[spacecrime]

It's obvious you don't...

Seymour seems to have rebounded OK. LOL

Seymour has not been the same since his surgery. There is no way you can say that he is clsoe to the old Seymour.

Harrison rebounded from much worse to play SS at 34. LOL

Harrison wasn't as good as he was before the surgery, either.

Palmer had a great comeback season, his knee is no longer the issue... LOL

You don't know that. You don't know if his knee is hurting his pocket mobility or his throwing mechanics. He is leading his team to a 1-9 record. He was a LOT better before the surgery.

Not McNabb's or Culpepper's either... LOL

Again, you don't know that in McNabb's case. Culpepper sucked before the surgery, but he sucked ten times worse after it.

Rivers has been leading the league since returning from his ACL procedure... LOL

SD thought Brees was damaged goods after his shoulder surgery, a lot bigger problem for a pocket passer. LOL

Uhh, Brees didn't have ACL surgery. A torn ACL is a zillion times worse that a torn shoulder muscle.

Miami passed on him too and it cost Saban his dream NFL job...today he's being touted as an MVP. LOL

Lucky for him he didn't have ACL surgery. He wouldn't be being touted as MVP, even in the alternate universe that you seem to live in.

Pennington was damaged for fair...oh wait... LOL

Pennington didn't have ACL surgery either.

I prefer to listen to the people who have done the surgery on elite athletes because they are generally better qualified to assess the situation. My aunt had both knees done a few years ago

????? My apologies if your aunt is an elite athlete, but WTF are you trying to say in this passage?

LOL

LOL, indeed.

You should spend less time LingOL and more time learning about ACL injuries.

 

[Deus Irae]

I've argued and argued and argued this in this thread already, I can't rehash it again.

The point I'm trying to make is that for you to dismiss people as idiots for contemplating this is rash and makes you look foolish and rigid.

The guy has played 11 games this season, and one more a couple of years ago, and that's it. Having this discussion now is idiotic. Let's repeat: 11 games. It was as recently as the San Diego game that people wanted the man killed, and now, just 6 games later, I'm supposed to believe the notion is reasonable and worth discussing? I'll pass, thanks.

No, it's probably not a smart move to deal away the greatest quarterback of all time. But you could make a case that it could potentially result in a top 3 defense.

I could make the case that this team will potentially be a top 3 defense next season without making any such trade. Hell, I could make the case that the team could become a top 3 defense by the end of this year. Cases are easy to make.

If Matt Cassell was able to perform consistently at the level he has been at since the San Diego debacle, that trade would be a no-brainer for me. A total no-brainer.

And here's where you make my point about the Scott Mitchell revival and the idiocy of the argument. At this point, there's really no need to go further.

 

[spacecrime]

Dale and Holley just signed off on a note that sums up the lunacy. Cassel has had arguably 5 great games in his career...

I agree. Glad to see you have figured it out.

With 9 career starts and 5 of them great games, what more do you need to know? NO QB has ever had more than half of his games GREAT games.

 

[Grizzafted]

Deus, there's absolutely no good reason for me not to consider you an idiot. That wasn't an argument, it was like talking to Bush about Iraq. He's just right because he thinks he's right and he doesn't need to entertain any specifics of alternate viewpoints. That philosophy works magically.

I'm forced to think that you either don't understand my argument or can't unscrew yourself for long enough to attempt being thoughtful about why you disagree, which is usually an attribute of stupidity. So let's just agree to consider each other to be idiots and go our separate ways. I'm content with that.

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus, there's absolutely no good reason for me not to consider you an idiot. That wasn't an argument, it was like talking to Bush about Iraq. He's just right because he thinks he's right and he doesn't need to entertain any specifics of alternate viewpoints. That philosophy works magically.

I'm forced to think that you either don't understand my argument or can't unscrew yourself for long enough to attempt being thoughtful about why you disagree, which is usually an attribute of stupidity. So let's just agree to consider each other to be idiots and go our separate ways. I'm content with that.

1.) I didn't know you well enough to know if you're an idiot or not.

2.) I understand your argument full well. It's silly. You make indefensible assumptions and then get hissy because I don't buy them.

3.) You make my point in your own argument:

I guess the question is, can Cassell keep it up? If he throws for 300 yards and 3 TDs against Pittsburgh this weekend and then performs well in the playoffs

Here, you yourself are implicitly conceding that it's too soon for this argument. Even if the rest of your argument had any merit, this part alone undoes it completely.

However, feel free to call in to WEEI and discuss it with the hosts. Of course, they are all pointing out the absurdity of the notion as well, but I'm sure your assertions will sway them.

 

[Grizzafted]

I'm playing devils advocate to an extent. Part of it comes from my belief that Cassell's last few weeks weren't just a flash in the pan. He's getting better before our eyes. It's not some backup who gets called off the bench and has a great game. It's actually a development, and it's been consistent.

But we'll see, we will see. It's totally too early to have a real discussion on this, I'll concede that. I have to see how he looks in a playoff atmosphere, and Sunday is a good place to start. My gut feeling is he's going to play well.

Look on the bright side, these petty arguments notwithstanding, we're in a great position either way. If (when) Brady comes back and starts getting back to form, you're right, there is a solid corps of young defensive players, and it's hard to imagine that they won't make another few runs at a title. If Cassell stays here and we get the next Deion Sanders and Orlando Pace in the draft to go along with Patrick Willis and two other low first round picks, and we win another two or three titles, maybe you'll remember this thread!

 

[aluminum seats]

I'm playing devils advocate to an extent. Part of it comes from my belief that Cassell's last few weeks weren't just a flash in the pan. He's getting better before our eyes. It's not some backup who gets called off the bench and has a great game. It's actually a development, and it's been consistent.

But we'll see, we will see. It's totally too early to have a real discussion on this, I'll concede that. I have to see how he looks in a playoff atmosphere, and Sunday is a good place to start. My gut feeling is he's going to play well.

Look on the bright side, these petty arguments notwithstanding, we're in a great position either way. If (when) Brady comes back and starts getting back to form, you're right, there is a solid corps of young defensive players, and it's hard to imagine that they won't make another few runs at a title. If Cassell stays here and we get the next Deion Sanders and Orlando Pace in the draft to go along with Patrick Willis and two other low first round picks, and we win another two or three titles, maybe you'll remember this thread!

Another excellent post---the difference in content and tone between these and those who respond is striking.

One point I'd disagree with is about it being too early to have a real discussion--it's just a different discussion. Naturally it's too early to say the Pats SHOULD do this or that, but it's not too early to talk about the issues.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Seymour has not been the same since his surgery. There is no way you can say that he is clsoe to the old Seymour.

This year I can. He's on pace to break his 2003 sack total, best year of his career... He played hurt throughout 2006 and had OFF SEASON surgery therefore missed camp and started the 2007 season on PUP. This season fully recovered he's been a force again.

Harrison wasn't as good as he was before the surgery, either.

Bill keeping him at a pretty stiff price says he was. He may have lost half a step but he was smart enough to make up for it. If we'd had him in that Indy AFCC game...he made a play on Tyree David couldn't beat again in a hundred attempts...

You don't know that. You don't know if his knee is hurting his pocket mobility or his throwing mechanics. He is leading his team to a 1-9 record. He was a LOT better before the surgery.

It didn't last year... He was as good or better in his first year back. This year it's his elbow (and lack of leadership...).

Again, you don't know that in McNabb's case. Culpepper sucked before the surgery, but he sucked ten times worse after it.

Yes, I do... that's the thing I'g good at, perceptive assessments - check my track record...

LOL

Uhh, Brees didn't have ACL surgery. A torn ACL is a zillion times worse that a torn shoulder muscle.

For a QB: LOL

Lucky for him he didn't have ACL surgery. He wouldn't be being touted as MVP, even in the alternate universe that you seem to live in.

Pennington didn't have ACL surgery either.

Duh...

????? My apologies if your aunt is an elite athlete, but WTF are you trying to say in this passage?

If you read more you'd know. The response was to a poster comparing his knee surgery results to Bradys...

LOL, indeed.

You should spend less time LingOL and more time learning about ACL injuries.

You should get the pole removed from your ass and start behaving like a valued member again....even if we never did always agree...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Another excellent post---the difference in content and tone between these and those who respond is striking.

Your idea of striking is...strikingly selective...

Deus, there's absolutely no good reason for me not to consider you an idiot. That wasn't an argument, it was like talking to Bush about Iraq. He's just right because he thinks he's right and he doesn't need to entertain any specifics of alternate viewpoints. That philosophy works magically.

I'm forced to think that you either don't understand my argument or can't unscrew yourself for long enough to attempt being thoughtful about why you disagree, which is usually an attribute of stupidity. So let's just agree to consider each other to be idiots and go our separate ways. I'm content with that.

 

[Alk]

You should get the pole removed from your ass and start behaving like a valued member again....even if we never did always agree...

How does one become a valued member? How much does it cost?

 

[scout]

dude, than you have not read the entirety of the thread
the last guy I just responded to made a few good points

Few and far between, as I've read all the threads and the vast majority of fans are hysterical and offer no legitimate responses.
I say see who is offering what. Secondly, if there is a problem with franchising Cassell, then it becomes even more serious that you look at your options.

 

[scout]

Dale and Holley just signed off on a note that sums up the lunacy. Cassel has had arguably 5 great games in his career. ..

Cassel has had five great games in his career? How many freakin' games has he played?