That's great it starts with an earthquake

[jays52]

No it's not, Michael Stipe.

That said, it is pretty bad and if there are not some serious changes made it's going to get ugly in hurry on both sides of the ball. Some are correctable, some are not, and some can be patched up enough to get you them home. I see these problems broken down into three major categories.

1) They have a high school offense and teams have figured it out. Think about it. Their best players are between the hashes and no one is going to back the safeties off. I've been concerned for a while about the lack out outside receivers and we're beginning to see this turn from a concern to a legitimate problem. The ambiguity and matchup problems of the two TE set are caused only when there is a legitimate outside presence. Why? Because without one the defense has no need to defend the deeper part of the field nor the areas outside the hashes with the safeties. The safeties are then allowed to drop down and provide not only a better TE matchup but robust run support . Further, the less of the demand placed on the exterior, the more it enables the defenses to beat the current bread and butter of Welker and Hernandez. Simply place an I/O bracket or get physical and pass to chase zones. Not only does this work to hurt the passing routes, but it keeps players in tight where they can better disguise pressures and defend the run. Without an outside option (they currently don't have one at either the x or z) the entire design of the offense won't work.

Solution: Pray that Price can play or Ocho wakes up one morning and says "oooooohhh. Wow, it's all so simple now."


Problem 2) Bill, let them play. So much of the talk lately has been about the GM practices. Alright, there's some valid points there and I'd sure like to have James Sanders back there to stabilize things, but ultimately all that stuff is irrelevant. There's nothing that can be done to change it, your roster is your roster, and goddamnit they are football players. This continued reliance upon this passive, weak, sickening two high safety look is poisoning the defense. I understand that it's risk mitigation and ultimately field goals aren't going to kill you, but it's removing one of your best defensive assets from contributing. The dual high safety crap is keeping Chung 20 yards from the action instead of letting him loose in the intermediate areas his skillset is so clearly geared towards. Ihedigbo? Sure, great, stick his ass 40 yards away from anything so he won't get in the way, but you have to start utilizing Chung. They also don't have linebackers getting sufficient depth and spread in their cover-2 and 4. Why do you think Heath Miller had such a huge game? He was getting behind the linebackers level. Once they began to move Guyton into that area it helped things (ie the INT) but it's been a glaring weakness all season.

Solution: The zones were spread and exposed by the Steelers in a perfect reversal of what normally happens in that game. Your players are in the NFL for a reason. You don't have Cooper Manning at corner. Bring your playmakers into positions that will enable them to make plays. Trust McCourty to right the ship. He will. Let your long-armed, strong corners leverage their skill sets. Don't ask a linebacker who runs a 5.2 40 to be your Mike in a Tampa-2 where he has to get safety depth. Stop confusing first time starters by trying to execute cute morphing coverages that replace exchange zones. You cut Sanders and are now confusing everyone else. They're football players. Let them play football. Execute good, sound fundamental coverages and at least let your players just fly around. You've got a fast team. UTILIZE IT. Mix in some blitzing and if you get burnt on occasion you get burnt. At least your players will be able to play. Otherwise you'll continue to play prevent right until you're kicked out in the first round for the third consecutive year. I love the x's and o's but sometimes the smartest move is to simplify.

Problem 3) They're soft. Mankins, Gronk, Spikes, and Welker are the only guys that standout as badasses. Seven years ago that whole damn team was 22 badasses. They're unemotional and most importantly playing not to get beat. This team has paralysis by analysis and that's very scary.

Solution: Type how soft they are on messageboards in hopes it gives the coaching staff sufficient motivational collateral. Again, dedicate yourself to an aggressive scheme and let your players play fast and emotional. This team has been over-intellectualized and it shows.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

best thread in a long time

 

[Tunescribe]

That is a lot of vexed analysis for a team that's 5-2 and very well could be 6-2 next week.

 

[BradyFTW!]

That is a lot of vexed analysis for a team that's 5-2 and very well could be 6-2 next week.

It could also be 5-3, or even 5-2-1.

 

[jays52]

That is a lot of vexed analysis for a team that's 5-2 and very well could be 6-2 next week.

I agree, it was emotional. However at a time they should be trending upward or at least showing signs of figuring out how to utilize their personnel they are very clearly trending downward. My standard for judgement is a superbowl winning team. They don't look like one. At all.

 

[BelichickFan]

Mankins, Gronk, Spikes, and Welker are the only guys that standout as badasses

I would add Chung to that.

It could also be 5-3, or even 5-2-1.

Or 6-1, we could easily have beaten Buffalo.

The concern for me on defense is there's no-one to upgrade right now. We have no MLB better than Spikes and if Mayo goes there we have no good WLB. We have no better SLB than Ninko. We have the three scrubs rotating at the safety spot other than Chung and none of them can play.

I like Carter, Wilfork, Mayo, Chung, McCourtey and Arrington. That's half a defense.

 

[Ring 6]

No it's not, Michael Stipe.

That said, it is pretty bad and if there are not some serious changes made it's going to get ugly in hurry on both sides of the ball. Some are correctable, some are not, and some can be patched up enough to get you them home. I see these problems broken down into three major categories.

1) They have a high school offense and teams have figured it out. Think about it. Their best players are between the hashes and no one is going to back the safeties off. I've been concerned for a while about the lack out outside receivers and we're beginning to see this turn from a concern to a legitimate problem. The ambiguity and matchup problems of the two TE set are caused only when there is a legitimate outside presence. Why? Because without one the defense has no need to defend the deeper part of the field nor the areas outside the hashes with the safeties. The safeties are then allowed to drop down and provide not only a better TE matchup but robust run support . Further, the less of the demand placed on the exterior, the more it enables the defenses to beat the current bread and butter of Welker and Hernandez. Simply place an I/O bracket or get physical and pass to chase zones. Not only does this work to hurt the passing routes, but it keeps players in tight where they can better disguise pressures and defend the run. Without an outside option (they currently don't have one at either the x or z) the entire design of the offense won't work.

Solution: Pray that Price can play or Ocho wakes up one morning and says "oooooohhh. Wow, it's all so simple now."


Problem 2) Bill, let them play. So much of the talk lately has been about the GM practices. Alright, there's some valid points there and I'd sure like to have James Sanders back there to stabilize things, but ultimately all that stuff is irrelevant. There's nothing that can be done to change it, your roster is your roster, and goddamnit they are football players. This continued reliance upon this passive, weak, sickening two high safety look is poisoning the defense. I understand that it's risk mitigation and ultimately field goals aren't going to kill you, but it's removing one of your best defensive assets from contributing. The dual high safety crap is keeping Chung 20 yards from the action instead of letting him loose in the intermediate areas his skillset is so clearly geared towards. Ihedigbo? Sure, great, stick his ass 40 yards away from anything so he won't get in the way, but you have to start utilizing Chung. They also don't have linebackers getting sufficient depth and spread in their cover-2 and 4. Why do you think Heath Miller had such a huge game? He was getting behind the linebackers level. Once they began to move Guyton into that area it helped things (ie the INT) but it's been a glaring weakness all season.

Solution: The zones were spread and exposed by the Steelers in a perfect reversal of what normally happens in that game. Your players are in the NFL for a reason. You don't have Cooper Manning at corner. Bring your playmakers into positions that will enable them to make plays. Trust McCourty to right the ship. He will. Let your long-armed, strong corners leverage their skill sets. Don't ask a linebacker who runs a 5.2 40 to be your Mike in a Tampa-2 where he has to get safety depth. Stop confusing first time starters by trying to execute cute morphing coverages that replace exchange zones. You cut Sanders and are now confusing everyone else. They're football players. Let them play football. Execute good, sound fundamental coverages and at least let your players just fly around. You've got a fast team. UTILIZE IT. Mix in some blitzing and if you get burnt on occasion you get burnt. At least your players will be able to play. Otherwise you'll continue to play prevent right until you're kicked out in the first round for the third consecutive year. I love the x's and o's but sometimes the smartest move is to simplify.

Problem 3) They're soft. Mankins, Gronk, Spikes, and Welker are the only guys that standout as badasses. Seven years ago that whole damn team was 22 badasses. They're unemotional and most importantly playing not to get beat. This team has paralysis by analysis and that's very scary.

Solution: Type how soft they are on messageboards in hopes it gives the coaching staff sufficient motivational collateral. Again, dedicate yourself to an aggressive scheme and let your players play fast and emotional. This team has been over-intellectualized and it shows.

Not your best work Jay.
Every time this offense has a bad game The Entitleds cry that we got figured out and the smoke and mirrors offense is dead. Every time the offense goes on to light it up. I am surprised you fell for it.
You as well as anyone should know that when a team comes in and risks running scheme they don't do out of desperation because they have never stopped you before, there is a chance an offense is caught off guard. When the defense cant get off the field and allows 40 minutes of top that doesnt help.

Are you really calling for an aggressive defense, like what we did to start the year that failed even worse?
How soon we forget.

Finally, I am shocked a guy with the insight you have would question the toughness of players from your easy chair.

I respect your football acumen, but you really mailed this one in.

 

[Ring 6]

I would add Chung to that.



Or 6-1, we could easily have beaten Buffalo.

The concern for me on defense is there's no-one to upgrade right now. We have no MLB better than Spikes and if Mayo goes there we have no good WLB. We have no better SLB than Ninko. We have the three scrubs rotating at the safety spot other than Chung and none of them can play.

I like Carter, Wilfork, Mayo, Chung, McCourtey and Arrington. That's half a defense.

Of course they can improve. Mayo was not 100%. Spikes actually has looked very good. The safeties will only improve with experience. The reserve corners need playing time to improve, and they are getting it.
The DL added Deaderick, who didn't look bad, and will soon add Brace.
Above all, the issues are clear as day, and they need to continue to work on them. Football teams address issues and improve. There is no reason this one won't as almost every BB defense has.
Solid players such as Ellis, Ninkovich, Spikes are the kind of guys you see on good defenses. You don't need 11 allpros, you need to get 11 guys doing their jobs.

 

[BelichickFan]

Of course they can improve. Mayo was not 100%. Spikes actually has looked very good. The safeties will only improve with experience. The reserve corners need playing time to improve, and they are getting it.

We'll see, I hope you're right but our 2nd Safety and 3rd (and 4th) CB are JAGs who wouldn't see the field for many teams. The LB have the potential to be OK but Mayo is still feeling his way (even aside from the injury) and Ninko and Spikes have their limitations athletically; that doesn't make them disasters but as a group these LB have a long, long way to go as none are fully in tune with the defense right now and only one (Mayo) is a standout athletically.

 

[Coach42]

This might sound crazy but I'm kinda surprised the D is getting so much heat when the Offense was really worse. The D held the Steelers to 23 and had a crucial turnover basically gift wrapping points. The rest of the game the vaunted offense only produced 10 points! Seems to me the Steelers essentially mimicked the Jets 2010 playoff game plan to perfection and the offense had no answers.

 

[Tunescribe]

I agree, it was emotional. However at a time they should be trending upward or at least showing signs of figuring out how to utilize their personnel they are very clearly trending downward. My standard for judgement is a superbowl winning team. They don't look like one. At all.

It's what they look like this month and next that tells the tale. The good things are (A). there's plenty of time and (B). they don't have to make up ground on anyone. During bye week I suggested that the upcoming Steelers, Giants and Jets games would set the stage for the balance of the season. They flunked the first test. If the Pats lose the next two, they're in big trouble. If they split them, they're on thin ice for a serious playoff run.

 

[Ring 6]

We'll see, I hope you're right but our 2nd Safety and 3rd (and 4th) CB are JAGs who wouldn't see the field for many teams. The LB have the potential to be OK but Mayo is still feeling his way (even aside from the injury) and Ninko and Spikes have their limitations athletically; that doesn't make them disasters but as a group these LB have a long, long way to go as none are fully in tune with the defense right now and only one (Mayo) is a standout athletically.

When has our 3rd safety or 3rd corner NOT been a JAG. People tend to have foggy memories of the past.
S Matt Stevens, Antwan Harris, Shawn Mayer, Dexter Reid
CB Terrence Shaw, rookie Asante Samuel, Earthwind Moreland, Troy Brown
Those are our #3 safeties and the nickel corners from our SB Champs.
Which one are we dying for?

Lets not forget we also have Otis Smith, Tyrone Poole and Randall Gay as starting corners along with Tebucky Jones at S.

 

[jays52]

Not your best work Jay.
Every time this offense has a bad game The Entitleds cry that we got figured out and the smoke and mirrors offense is dead. Every time the offense goes on to light it up. I am surprised you fell for it.
You as well as anyone should know that when a team comes in and risks running scheme they don't do out of desperation because they have never stopped you before, there is a chance an offense is caught off guard. When the defense cant get off the field and allows 40 minutes of top that doesnt help.

Are you really calling for an aggressive defense, like what we did to start the year that failed even worse?
How soon we forget.

Finally, I am shocked a guy with the insight you have would question the toughness of players from your easy chair.

I respect your football acumen, but you really mailed this one in.

Fair enough, man, I wasn't expecting it to be a popular post

Couple things, though.

This is the third consecutive game where a defense has shown it's ability to counter the offense. Not just making some plays, going hard, taking advantage of poor execution, and catching a team offguard. These defenses understand the fundamental premise of the offense and shut it down as much as one can.
That's not an outlier, that's a pattern. If they don't get outside help they won't have the flexibility to counter. That's not negativity, that's just a simple understanding of football. There won't be defenses that can execute it every week in the regular season, but you bet your ass there will be in the playoffs.

I'm not calling for a black and white shift, I'm calling for at least some mixing. It's my thought that they're playing this until they can get the techniques coached up for the plan, and I hope that's the case. Eventually they're going to have to take the training wheels off and let their guys get reps. I'd rather endure growing pains in November than be stunted in January. Soft zones don't win championships and history supports that overwhelmingly.

Are the players, as individual human beings incredibly tough people? Absolutely. They all have higher pain tolerances than myself and all could 100% no doubt about it kick my ass. That said when I see a team (especially a defense) playing consistently without championship gamespeed and pop it really stands out to me. I call that soft, but maybe I'm making the wrong noises with my mouth and drawing the wrong symbols.

I know it's not popular, and I know it's hard to hear. Yet it's three days after the loss and I've thought a lot trying to be as objective as possible. If I were called in to evaluate this situation that's what I would take from it. These aren't flaws that are going to prevent a playoff berth. These are flaws that enable teams to beat you in the playoffs. That's what I'm concerned with, but there's plenty of time to get it corrected and I think that they can.

 

[Ring 6]

This might sound crazy but I'm kinda surprised the D is getting so much heat when the Offense was really worse. The D held the Steelers to 23 and had a crucial turnover basically gift wrapping points. The rest of the game the vaunted offense only produced 10 points! Seems to me the Steelers essentially mimicked the Jets 2010 playoff game plan to perfection and the offense had no answers.

They did not mimic what the Jets did, can we please stop making that up?
They played an entirely different game plan. Just because we had 2 games that werent outstanding does not mean we were played the same way just because it makes you feel better that you have something to feel scared about.
The offense had 20 minutes of possession, the defense forced 1 punt and 1 turnover. Its not even close where the brunt of the blame lies.

 

[BelichickFan]

When has our 3rd safety or 3rd corner NOT been a JAG. People tend to have foggy memories of the past.
S Matt Stevens, Antwan Harris, Shawn Mayer, Dexter Reid
CB Terrence Shaw, rookie Asante Samuel, Earthwind Moreland, Troy Brown
Those are our #3 safeties and the nickel corners from our SB Champs.
Which one are we dying for?

Lets not forget we also have Otis Smith, Tyrone Poole and Randall Gay as starting corners along with Tebucky Jones at S.

We have more holes than those years. No pass rush, LB learning on the job. We've never had a #2 safety this bad; #3 CB maybe but the years you're listing we often had Vrabel, Bruschi, McGinnest in their prime. Now we have a bad #2 safety and a bad #3 CB and LB learning on the job and a non existent pass rush.

We do have a better offense than those years. But we have tons more holes on defense.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Price looked like he could stretch the field in both games he's gotten the reps. Brady will have to hit him a few times to keep teams from flooding the LOS.

Defensively it's gonna be up to the front 7 to carry us. Chung is good but he's no Rodney of 2004. McCourty is not the #1 he looked like last year (at least not yet). And we have no proven CB behind our #2 CB. Hole at FS. Frustrating with 6 1st/2nd rounders in the last 5 drafts.

 

[ausbacker]

I don't have an issue with your post at all jays52. I agree with you that the defensive players appear to be playing within the limitations of game plans minus the in game adjustments. It's annoying.

 

[Sciz]

This is the third consecutive game where a defense has shown it's ability to counter the offense. Not just making some plays, going hard, taking advantage of poor execution, and catching a team offguard. These defenses understand the fundamental premise of the offense and shut it down as much as one can.
That's not an outlier, that's a pattern. If they don't get outside help they won't have the flexibility to counter. That's not negativity, that's just a simple understanding of football. There won't be defenses that can execute it every week in the regular season, but you bet your ass there will be in the playoffs.

When looking at the schedule as a whole, is there any other team with a scarier defense than the three they just played? The Ryans seem to always succeed at slowing down Brady with the exception of 45-3. The Steelers are just a good defense. Now they may have to go through the Jets or Steelers in the playoffs, but even a slight improvement in the defense makes that very very possible.

 

[jays52]

When looking at the schedule as a whole, is there any other team with a scarier defense than the three they just played? The Ryans seem to always succeed at slowing down Brady with the exception of 45-3. The Steelers are just a good defense. Now they may have to go through the Jets or Steelers in the playoffs, but even a slight improvement in the defense makes that very very possible.

Yeah thats a good point. My main concerns are first that the Jets and Steelers are overrated on D, and second all three are fundamentally different defenses that all attacked the same thing in different ways and were successful. That's three succesful gameplans for whatever scheme preference you may have placed out there for all the other teams to see.

I'm expecting the Pats to blow the Giants out but should the Giants have success defensively that will definitely be cause for concern.

 

[Ring 6]

Fair enough, man, I wasn't expecting it to be a popular post

Couple things, though.

This is the third consecutive game where a defense has shown it's ability to counter the offense.

3rd consecutive? We had 450 yards and 30 points vs the Jets.
We had 371 yards despite 4 tunrovers vs Dallas and kind of moved at will.

Not just making some plays, going hard, taking advantage of poor execution, and catching a team offguard. These defenses understand the fundamental premise of the offense and shut it down as much as one can.

I disagree, but every time we have a poor game this comes up, and every time we bury it. Last year it was the Briowns and we went on the have the best 2nd half of maybe any offense in history.
Then it was the Jets in the palyoffs and we were pretty much unstoppable (except for shooting ourselve in the foot with turnovers) until this game. If the blueprint is cast, why did we have 450 yards and have our way with the Jets?

That's not an outlier, that's a pattern. If they don't get outside help they won't have the flexibility to counter. That's not negativity, that's just a simple understanding of football.

A misunderstanding actually, because we have countered every time a defense has tried something new. Aren't you tired of hearing after every loss we are figured out only to wait until the next one to say it again?

There won't be defenses that can execute it every week in the regular season, but you bet your ass there will be in the playoffs.

Maybe, maybe not. SD couldn't. The Jets couldn't. Pittsburgh never did until they changed their entire gameplan, lets see what happens when we counter that if we meet again.

I'm not calling for a black and white shift, I'm calling for at least some mixing. It's my thought that they're playing this until they can get the techniques coached up for the plan, and I hope that's the case. Eventually they're going to have to take the training wheels off and let their guys get reps. I'd rather endure growing pains in November than be stunted in January. Soft zones don't win championships and history supports that overwhelmingly.

There is no doubt that they are building toward something. I just find it ironic that everyone called for silly aggressive, got it, saw all the big plays it creates, were happy to go back to conservative then after 1 loss where a good team played disciplined ball control that typically plays into the hands of a conservative D we want silly aggressive again.
For all the complaining that the defense was pathetic the scheme had them allowing 23 points, and had the Gronk TD been called right, we likely have the ball, down 6 with 2 minutes and timeouts, on the road vs the defneding AFC Champs. That isn't bad for a pathetic defensive effort is it?

Are the players, as individual human beings incredibly tough people? Absolutely. They all have higher pain tolerances than myself and all could 100% no doubt about it kick my ass. That said when I see a team (especially a defense) playing consistently without championship gamespeed and pop it really stands out to me. I call that soft, but maybe I'm making the wrong noises with my mouth and drawing the wrong symbols.

I think its silly to believe that you can judge that from your living room. If you wish to, be my guest, but I'll dismiss it as something you are guessing at.

I know it's not popular, and I know it's hard to hear. Yet it's three days after the loss and I've thought a lot trying to be as objective as possible. If I were called in to evaluate this situation that's what I would take from it. These aren't flaws that are going to prevent a playoff berth. These are flaws that enable teams to beat you in the playoffs. That's what I'm concerned with, but there's plenty of time to get it corrected and I think that they can.

It is what it is, but as I said I think you swung and missed this time.
Surely the team has flaws every team does, but one game is one game.
Your statement that the offense has struggled 3 straight games illustrates the revisionary history that overanalyzing one game brings.

I know it has become popular to defend the negative viewpoint with 'that will hurt in the playoffs' but there really is no evidence that any style of play is successful in the regular season and not the playoffs or vice versa (aside from the weather factor).

We are what we are. A 5 and 2 team that will contend for the playoffs, and must improve if we are going to win a SB. Aside from the difference in the record thats where every contender stands.