Tale of two Quarterbacks

[PonyExpress]

Guess who:

QB "A" playoff stats.

9 wins 11 losses/ 32 TDs 21 INTs/ 88.4 Passer rating/ 1 Sb win 1 SB loss/ 3 conference championship game appearances.


QB "B" playoff stats

9 wins 7 losses/ 31 TDs 19 INTs/ 86.4 Passer rating/ 2 SB losses/ 5 conference title game appearances.

QB A is Peyton Manning's career playoff numbers.
QB B is Tom Brady's playoff numbers starting in 2005, post dynasty.

In other words, if you exclude all of TB's SB titles and the first 9 straight wins of his postseason career, his playoff resume is still competitive with Payton Manning's entire career.

Brady would be a HOF QB based on what he has done from 2005 on, even if he had never won a SB title.

If the Pats win the next 2 games, Brady inarguably will have a better career playoff resume since 2005, the end of the original dynasty, than Manning has had in his entire career.

 

[Archeryaddict12]

Guess who:



QB "A" playoff stats.



9 wins 11 losses/ 32 TDs 21 INTs/ 88.4 Passer rating/ 1 Sb win 1 SB loss/ 3 conference championship game appearances.





QB "B" playoff stats



9 wins 7 losses/ 31 TDs 19 INTs/ 86.4 Passer rating/ 2 SB losses/ 5 conference title game appearances.



QB A is Peyton Manning's career playoff numbers.

QB B is Tom Brady's playoff numbers starting in 2005, post dynasty.



In other words, if you exclude all of TB's SB titles and the first 9 straight wins of his postseason career, his playoff resume is still competitive with Payton Manning's entire career.



Brady would be a HOF QB based on what he has done from 2005 on, even if he had never won a SB title.



If the Pats win the next 2 games, Brady inarguably will have a better career playoff resume since 2005, the end of the original dynasty, than Manning has had in his entire career.

Brady will have at least 1 more SB. And his fourth will be on feb 2 2014

 

[Ivan]

The likelihood that a Manning team would score 6 touchdowns and none of them would be passing touchdowns is zero. Imo that is just one of the reasons that Brady is the greater QB, he puts his team ahead of his stats. Manning would start to have seizures if they scored 2 touchdowns and both were on the ground. I doubt a running back would see the ball for the rest of the game.

Brady had a great big grin on his face when asked about the running touchdowns after the game, Manning would have been in tears from the frustration.


"Stats are for losers." - Bill Belichick

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Here's another one I posted elsewhere. In close playoff games (decided by 6 points or less)
P. Manning 1-7 ( the one being the AFCCG comeback vs NE)
T. Brady 7-3 ( 2 Super Bowls and AFCCG vs Colts)

1-7 . I still don't get all the slobbering. He has 8 one and dones (hopefully 9) which is the same number of AFC Championship games Brady will have played in...

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

I've said it once before and I'll say it once again.

Assumption: Joe Montana is (presently) considered the GOAT QB of the NFL.

When we talk about Brady vs Manning we talk stats, win-loss, records....

When people/media talk about Brady and GOAT we compare him to Montana and how he doesn't live up to Joe's 4-0 SB record. Plus, the usual blah blah about not winning since 2004.

When people/media talk about Manning, I really never hear a comparison to Montana. I just hear about how he is in command and runs an offense like nobody ever has. if there is a QB comparison, it's usually Brett Favre (who he will pass in all key stats and the most post season loses should he lose another playoff game). Not to take away from Manning as he is an all time great, but when you hear people talk about how winning in the post season is what matters, how can the same people make the claim that he is GOAT?

 

[Ivan]

I've said it once before and I'll say it once again.

Assumption: Joe Montana is (presently) considered the GOAT QB of the NFL.

When we talk about Brady vs Manning we talk stats, win-loss, records....

When people/media talk about Brady and GOAT we compare him to Montana and how he doesn't live up to Joe's 4-0 SB record. Plus, the usual blah blah about not winning since 2004.

When people/media talk about Manning, I really never hear a comparison to Montana. I just hear about how he is in command and runs an offense like nobody ever has. if there is a QB comparison, it's usually Brett Favre (who he will pass in all key stats and the most post season loses should he lose another playoff game). Not to take away from Manning as he is an all time great, but when you hear people talk about how winning in the post season is what matters, how can the same people make the claim that he is GOAT?

Imo when it comes to the discussion of the GOAT the personal QB stats are secondary to team achievements, so while TD passes and yardage matters to some degree they will always be secondary to wins, play-off wins/record, and Conference Championships and Lombardi's. The Manning love is directly related to his regular season and fantasy performances, which puts more emphasis on personal stats and less on team achievements, and that is why he can flat out suck in the play-offs and his fans and the media will continue to slobber all over him, because his personal stats are outstanding, and they hold those higher than team achievement. When all is said and done Brady will have a minimum of 3 Lombardi's and will hold the record for most play-off wins and he has a really good shot at most wins by a QB period, which most thought was unattainable.


On a related note I will repeat what I said about Manning in another thread because it is relevant to this discussion. The likelihood that a team led by Manning would score 6 TD's and none would be through the air is zero, he would never let that happen because his TD's are too important to him. (Oops-I said it in this thread. Guess that makes me redundant)

Manning has had numerous 40 point games, if anyone can find one where he didn't throw for single TD I will be amazed.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Manning has had numerous 40 point games, if anyone can find one where he didn't throw for single TD I will be amazed.

Buffalo Bills at Indianapolis Colts - December 11th, 2000 - Pro-Football-Reference.com
28 games and he did it once,back in 2000 but 14 of those points were returns fumble/int

 

[Ivan]

Buffalo Bills at Indianapolis Colts - December 11th, 2000 - Pro-Football-Reference.com
28 games and he did it once,back in 2000 but 14 of those points were returns fumble/int

Thanks for the effort. I guess i will have to rephrase it to say that there has never been a Manning led team that scored 6 offensive touchdowns and none were in the air.

 

[letekro]

The likelihood that a Manning team would score 6 touchdowns and none of them would be passing touchdowns is zero. Imo that is just one of the reasons that Brady is the greater QB, he puts his team ahead of his stats. Manning would start to have seizures if they scored 2 touchdowns and both were on the ground. I doubt a running back would see the ball for the rest of the game.

Brady had a great big grin on his face when asked about the running touchdowns after the game, Manning would have been in tears from the frustration.


"Stats are for losers." - Bill Belichick

And the obsession continues....The Broncos were 7th in Rushing touchdowns this year even though they don't have a goalline hammer. The idea that Manning cares about stats over wins is stupid and unsupported. Manning is a great, great QB. I hope we don't have to deal with him with a healthy Julius Thomas and decent weather conditions. I don't believe we would've won at Gillette if both those conditions had been there.

 

[letekro]

Guess who:

QB "A" playoff stats.

9 wins 11 losses/ 32 TDs 21 INTs/ 88.4 Passer rating/ 1 Sb win 1 SB loss/ 3 conference championship game appearances.


QB "B" playoff stats

9 wins 7 losses/ 31 TDs 19 INTs/ 86.4 Passer rating/ 2 SB losses/ 5 conference title game appearances.

QB A is Peyton Manning's career playoff numbers.
QB B is Tom Brady's playoff numbers starting in 2005, post dynasty.

In other words, if you exclude all of TB's SB titles and the first 9 straight wins of his postseason career, his playoff resume is still competitive with Payton Manning's entire career.

Brady would be a HOF QB based on what he has done from 2005 on, even if he had never won a SB title.

If the Pats win the next 2 games, Brady inarguably will have a better career playoff resume since 2005, the end of the original dynasty, than Manning has had in his entire career.

The QB comparisons ignore the contributions of the 52 other guys on a football team, as well as the coach. When Brady was winning championships, the Pats roster was just better than the Colts' roster (outside of WR), and don't get me started on Belichick v. Dungy. This isn't the NBA where one or two guys can carry a mediocre roster. Everyone has bought into the media's message that only championships matter, but I'm not prepared to accept a proposition which leads to the conclusion that Eli Manning is a better QB than Peyton or that Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino.

 

[Ivan]

And the obsession continues....The Broncos were 7th in Rushing touchdowns this year even though they don't have a goalline hammer. The idea that Manning cares about stats over wins is stupid and unsupported. Manning is a great, great QB. I hope we don't have to deal with him with a healthy Julius Thomas and decent weather conditions. I don't believe we would've won at Gillette if both those conditions had been there.

Show where anyone claimed he wasn't a great QB? It hasn't happened. However as Patriot fans and those who believe that it is actually Brady who is the GOAT and not Manning we have every right to counter the endless claims by the media that Manning is the GOAT. I actually don't have anything against Manning personally, I don't think he's a bad guy and I do think he's a great QB, and I will be rooting for him to lose today because i think the Patriots have a better shot beating SD at home than Denver in Denver, however I do think he is obsessed with his passing stats and I cannot imagine him standing by while his RB's scored 6 TD's, and the number of TD's he had from close in tends to support that.


People who start multiple threads about a topic may have an obsession, those who simply respond to a thread on the tropic don't qualify unless they do it ad nauseum, and that's not the case here.

 

[letekro]

Show where anyone claimed he wasn't a great QB? It hasn't happened. However as Patriot fans and those who believe that it is actually Brady who is the GOAT and not Manning we have every right to counter the endless claims by the media that Manning is the GOAT. I actually don't have anything against Manning personally, I don't think he's a bad guy and I do think he's a great QB, and I will be rooting for him to lose today because i think the Patriots have a better shot beating SD at home than Denver in Denver, however I do think he is obsessed with his passing stats and I cannot imagine him standing by while his RB's scored 6 TD's, and the number of TD's he had from close in tends to support that.


People who start multiple threads about a topic may have an obsession, those who simply respond to a thread on the tropic don't qualify unless they do it ad nauseum, and that's not the case here.

I would say suggesting that Manning only cares about stats and not doing whatever it takes to win at the very least implies that he is not a great QB. Since there is no evidence for that claim, I assume your comments come out of some irrational part of your psyche. Maybe not "obsession", although that is the word that comes to mind to describe the general state of these message boards when it comes to PM. He is a great QB who hasn't played his best in a number of playoff games. Can't we just leave it at that?

 

[Ivan]

I would say suggesting that Manning only cares about stats and not doing whatever it takes to win at the very least implies that he is not a great QB. Since there is no evidence for that claim, I assume your comments come out of some irrational part of your psyche. Maybe not "obsession", although that is the word that comes to mind to describe the general state of these message boards when it comes to PM. He is a great QB who hasn't played his best in a number of playoff games. Can't we just leave it at that?

Fair enough, i actually thought of it more as a gratuitous cheap shot at Manning by me just for the fun of it. Sometimes I just can't help myself.

 

[letekro]

Fair enough, i actually thought of it more as a gratuitous cheap shot at Manning by me just for the fun of it. Sometimes I just can't help myself.

Well that is certainly fair enough.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

The QB comparisons ignore the contributions of the 52 other guys on a football team, as well as the coach. When Brady was winning championships, the Pats roster was just better than the Colts' roster (outside of WR), and don't get me started on Belichick v. Dungy. This isn't the NBA where one or two guys can carry a mediocre roster. Everyone has bought into the media's message that only championships matter, but I'm not prepared to accept a proposition which leads to the conclusion that Eli Manning is a better QB than Peyton or that Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino.

Okay, are you prepared to state that Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Brett Favre, Fran Tarkenton, and Vinny Testaverde are better than Joe Montana. They all have better stats. Nobody says only championships matter- that's why nobody says Dilfer is better than Marino. But everyone knows stats aren't the only thing that matters, that's why those guys above aren't considered the greatest of all time.

Both matter, but more than that, situations matter, people rate these things off what they've seen. The QB gets the ball every offensive snap, and the top QB's can call their own plays. So when there's 3 minutes left and the QB is running no huddle to win the game winning comes down to whether he makes the right play, right call, and right pass. In that situation Manning has more often than not thrown an INT, Brady and Montana didn't.

Anyone can throw big stats by throwing a lot. You play to win, and when it matters Manning has continually choked when he could have brought his team a win. No stats will change the mind of those who have watched him do it over and over again. If Brady played like Manning at the end of games he would have zero championships, so they matter.

 

[Ivan]

Well that is certainly fair enough.

I get to test my theory again today. I do believe Manning has a harder time when it is cold but that is really not the weather condition he has the most trouble with. The weather condition he really has a tough time with is a strong wind, and lo and behold the wind in Denver right now is 20-25 MPH, and while it may subside if it continues throughout this game then the Chargers just got a big assist from mother nature. i am going to be really interested to see if the wind actually makes it down to the field and affects the passing game. imo Manning looked like Mark Sanchez when he played in new england a couple of months ago.


Lets go wind!

 

[letekro]

Okay, are you prepared to state that Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Brett Favre, Fran Tarkenton, and Vinny Testaverde are better than Joe Montana. They all have better stats. Nobody says only championships matter- that's why nobody says Dilfer is better than Marino. But everyone knows stats aren't the only thing that matters, that's why those guys above aren't considered the greatest of all time.

Both matter, but more than that, situations matter, people rate these things off what they've seen. The QB gets the ball every offensive snap, and the top QB's can call their own plays. So when there's 3 minutes left and the QB is running no huddle to win the game winning comes down to whether he makes the right play, right call, and right pass. In that situation Manning has more often than not thrown an INT, Brady and Montana didn't.

Anyone can throw big stats by throwing a lot. You play to win, and when it matters Manning has continually choked when he could have brought his team a win. No stats will change the mind of those who have watched him do it over and over again. If Brady played like Manning at the end of games he would have zero championships, so they matter.

I think championships and stats are both used because there is no way to really compare QB's against each other. It's not like basketball, where LeBron can go directly against Durant and prove that he's better. I have watched Manning plenty, and he scares the crap out of me. Obviously, he scares BB too. He is in Brady's league, I will say that. Montana was a great player, but so was Marino (Moon was in Canada in his prime; Fouts is before my time; Favre threw too many picks; and the other two don't merit consideration). Montana also had great weapons and one of the best defenses in the league. Opponents averaged about 15 ppg against the 49ers in their 4 SB wins with Montana. Marino, famously, never had any running game or any defense. I have no idea, and neither do you, how Marino would've fared if he were to be subbed onto such a dominant roster.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

I think championships and stats are both used because there is no way to really compare QB's against each other. It's not like basketball, where LeBron can go directly against Durant and prove that he's better. I have watched Manning plenty, and he scares the crap out of me. Obviously, he scares BB too. He is in Brady's league, I will say that. Montana was a great player, but so was Marino (Moon was in Canada in his prime; Fouts is before my time; Favre threw too many picks; and the other two don't merit consideration). Montana also had great weapons and one of the best defenses in the league. Opponents averaged about 15 ppg against the 49ers in their 4 SB wins with Montana. Marino, famously, never had any running game or any defense. I have no idea, and neither do you, how Marino would've fared if he were to be subbed onto such a dominant roster.

Dolphins

1983- 1st ranked defense
1984- 4th
1985- 12th
1990- 4th
1992- 11th
1995- 10th
1998- 1st

As usual the excuses don't add up to reality. Show me a franchise QB, and I'll show you a guy who had some great defenses during his career. Some turned those into SB's some turned to excuses. You can judge who has the most excuses, I'll take the other guys.

 

[Brady6]

Guess who:

QB "A" playoff stats.

9 wins 11 losses/ 32 TDs 21 INTs/ 88.4 Passer rating/ 1 Sb win 1 SB loss/ 3 conference championship game appearances.


QB "B" playoff stats

9 wins 7 losses/ 31 TDs 19 INTs/ 86.4 Passer rating/ 2 SB losses/ 5 conference title game appearances.

QB A is Peyton Manning's career playoff numbers.
QB B is Tom Brady's playoff numbers starting in 2005, post dynasty.

In other words, if you exclude all of TB's SB titles and the first 9 straight wins of his postseason career, his playoff resume is still competitive with Payton Manning's entire career.

Brady would be a HOF QB based on what he has done from 2005 on, even if he had never won a SB title.

If the Pats win the next 2 games, Brady inarguably will have a better career playoff resume since 2005, the end of the original dynasty, than Manning has had in his entire career.

The first 2 touchdowns in their divisional games highlights the story of these 2 QBs quiet well in my opinion.

Broncos
• TD 02:25 Demaryius Thomas 2 Yd Pass from Peyton Manning (Matt Prater Kick)
• TD 06:00 Wes Welker 3 Yd Pass from Peyton Manning (Matt Prater Kick)

Patriots
• TD 13:41 LeGarrette Blount 2 Yd Run (Stephen Gostkowski Kick)
• TD 07:17 LeGarrette Blount 2 Yd Run (Stephen Gostkowski Kick)

 

[Ring 6]

The QB comparisons ignore the contributions of the 52 other guys on a football team, as well as the coach. When Brady was winning championships, the Pats roster was just better than the Colts' roster (outside of WR), and don't get me started on Belichick v. Dungy. This isn't the NBA where one or two guys can carry a mediocre roster. Everyone has bought into the media's message that only championships matter, but I'm not prepared to accept a proposition which leads to the conclusion that Eli Manning is a better QB than Peyton or that Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino.

Of course you know that valuing post season performance does not require you to rank qbs by Super Bowl wins. And of course you know that Tom Brady and Peyton manning are the most important factor in the accomplishments or failures of their teams. You play the game to win not to accumulate statistics.