Starting Center

[Brady6]

Replacing Wendell with Connolly is probably not the answer. Connolly
allowed 33 pass hurries last year, almost as many as Wendell (37).
There has to be a bigger and better young center than Wendell in free agency. The trouble is he will cost 4-5 million per year. Maybe, the
Pats are counting on Cave. He was a highly ranked UDFA.

I agree with you assessment of the situation, the only thing I would say is Wendell is not receiving $4M-$5M, he would be fortunate to get a 1-year $1.5M contract. I would sign Wendell for that for the record.

I think posters exaggerated Wendell’s struggles. In the Patriots scheme, he is the #5 blocker so when he is getting beat it is a result of Connolly or Mankins not handling their matchup or improper blitz pickup. That is not to say Wendell did not have his shortcomings but Connolly is not going to be an upgrade I can tell you that right now. If I were looking to replace just one OL it would be Connolly because of cost, if he were less expensive I would keep him as the interior backup because of his versatility.

 

[Brady6]

Who are these "bigger, better, younger" centers you keep talking about?

Last I looked, there are only 2 left that fall into that Category. Mack and De La Puente. And Mack is likely getting his contract matched.

The NFL draft, Marcus Martin should be available at #62 and he is an instant upgrade even as a rookie.

 

[mgteich]

No player SHOULD be available unless you are drafting him a 1/2 round higher than he should be drafted. Draft Strategy 101 dictates that you can only plan to sign a certain position at 62 if you expect three or more players to be available at that spot.

This argument is similar to those who expect the 4th best TE to available to us in the last 3rd. Since the top 3 will be long gone, this is problematic at best.

The NFL draft, Marcus Martin should be available at #62 and he is an instant upgrade even as a rookie.

 

[ripatsfan91]

If Zach Martin falls I would love to add him to our line he can play all 5 positions at a high level, but I don't think he makes past Miami at 19. I would be more than happy with Su'a-Filo in the first and Niklas in the second. Add in DaQuan Jones in the third round and you have a pretty solid draft to start with.

Could be year where the Pats double dip at both TE and Offensive line. I would love the combo of Niklas and Trey Burton with Su'a-Filo and Cyril Richardson late.

 

[mgteich]

Jim did NOT say that Wendell would receive $4M-$5M. He said the better, younger center would cost that. I agree. As was pointed out by another poster, There is only Mack and DeLaPuente. Goodwin is also a possibility, but he is 35.

"There has to be a bigger and better young center than Wendell in free agency. The trouble is he will cost 4-5 million per year"

I agree with you assessment of the situation, the only thing I would say is Wendell is not receiving $4M-$5M, he would be fortunate to get a 1-year $1.5M contract. I would sign Wendell for that for the record.

I think posters exaggerated Wendell’s struggles. In the Patriots scheme, he is the #5 blocker so when he is getting beat it is a result of Connolly or Mankins not handling their matchup or improper blitz pickup. That is not to say Wendell did not have his shortcomings but Connolly is not going to be an upgrade I can tell you that right now. If I were looking to replace just one OL it would be Connolly because of cost, if he were less expensive I would keep him as the interior backup because of his versatility.

 

[Miguel]

I can't see that that would be much of a factor.

Solidify the interior OL for the next 5 years vs. get a higher comp pick in 2015. Not much of a question, IMO.

Solidify the interior OL for the next 5 years is why I expect the Browns to keep Mack.

 

[DW Toys]

Draft Joel Bitonio from Nevada, he offers depth at tackle and guard.

I do not think Belichick feels different, I think that Cannon had the right guard job early on and then suffered an injury; Connolly returned around that same time and regained his starting job. Belichick may not have seen him as needed to be used at guard while Connolly was able to play the position, but if Wendell is gone and they slide Connolly to center than Belichick is very likely to feel differently.

In addition, Cannon proved himself capable over the final 8 weeks of last season. Why would we invest money in a UFA or an early draft pick into that position when we very well could have the answer? Cannon was an early round talent that slipped due to a battle with cancer, he has improved each year he has been in the NFL both on the field and in the gym losing significant weight and improving as an athlete. DW Toys

If we do not give Cannon a shot at right guard, I firmly believe it will be regrettable; he has the tools to be special like an Akiem Hicks.

Great post Cousin! I like the kid from Nevada.

DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

Who are these "bigger, better, younger" centers you keep talking about?

Last I looked, there are only 2 left that fall into that Category. Mack and De La Puente. And Mack is likely getting his contract matched.

Have to go with you on this Cousin, Love Mack but you would have to pay Mankins money for him. De La Puete graded out much better than Connelly and Wendell (I think I read he was second rated in 2012 by Football Focus so take that with a grain of salt)De La Puente received grades of +6.1 (2013), +23.0 (2012) and +6.1 (2011) from Pro Football Focus over those seasons.

Major upgrade on Connelly and three years younger. Definite upgrade on Wendall.
DW Toys

 

[PATSNUTme]

There are 4 centers in this draft that are as good as prospects as Dan Koppen. They probably can be had between the late 2nd and 4th rounds. Some can and have played both C and OG in college.

All player in the draft are prospects until they prove they are solid NFL players. But I'd use 1 or 2 picks on interior OL. If one of the centers work out then both Mankins and Connolly won't have to keep looking over to help. There were several times that last year that Mankins looked like he got beat when it was really Wendell.

 

[Brady6]

No player SHOULD be available unless you are drafting him a 1/2 round higher than he should be drafted. Draft Strategy 101 dictates that you can only plan to sign a certain position at 62 if you expect three or more players to be available at that spot.

Marcus Martin projection is to go in round 2-3, so he should be available at number #62.

Should - used to indicate what is probable
Will - expressing inevitable events

There is a difference, I am sorry that you do not see that but I said should specifically for a reason because I do not know that is certain but I do feel it is probable.

This argument is similar to those who expect the 4th best TE to available to us in the last 3rd. Since the top 3 will be long gone, this is problematic at best.

C.J. Fiedorowicz is the fifth best TE and he is projected to go in rounds 3-4, it is probable that he could be in play at #93. Posters are offering a mock draft, like Mel Kiper Jr. you should not be asking them to mock 15 picks higher simply to increase probability.

 

[Brady6]

There are 4 centers in this draft that are as good as prospects as Dan Koppen. They probably can be had between the late 2nd and 4th rounds. Some can and have played both C and OG in college.

All player in the draft are prospects until they prove they are solid NFL players. But I'd use 1 or 2 picks on interior OL. If one of the centers work out then both Mankins and Connolly won't have to keep looking over to help. There were several times that last year that Mankins looked like he got beat when it was really Wendell.

Nut, do you have Larsen or Stork as your #4?

 

[Brady6]

Jim did NOT say that Wendell would receive $4M-$5M. He said the better, younger center would cost that. I agree. As was pointed out by another poster, There is only Mack and DeLaPuente. Goodwin is also a possibility, but he is 35.

"There has to be a bigger and better young center than Wendell in free agency. The trouble is he will cost 4-5 million per year"

My mistake...

 

[mgteich]

I have no problems at all with mocks that give us Martin at 62. Yes, that means that the person doing the mock thinks that he will prbably be available. Saying that we should be able to get him at 62, and then acting on that analysis by not signing a player is free agency is another issue entirely.

Fiederowitz is a good example. Maybe he will be available at 93 (a fine value). The top 4 should long gone. To me, Fiedorwitz in significantly better than those below him. In any case, once the top 4 are gone (LIKELY by 62), Fiedoriwitz will be the top TE on the board. Maybe he will last a full or round or not.

Plan B would be to get one of the many developmental players available in the 4-5 round range. For me, if one wants a top value TE, then the first couple of rounds is where to find the player. If that isn't our strategy (expecting to use our 1st and 2nd elsewhere), then it is more critical to sign a veteran free agent TE. SOMEONE needs to be ready to play in addition to Hooman when Gronk isn't available.

Marcus Martin projection is to go in round 2-3, so he should be available at number #62.

Should - used to indicate what is probable
Will - expressing inevitable events

There is a difference, I am sorry that you do not see that but I said should specifically for a reason because I do not know that is certain but I do feel it is probable.



C.J. Fiedorowicz is the fifth best TE and he is projected to go in rounds 3-4, it is probable that he could be in play at #93. Posters are offering a mock draft, like Mel Kiper Jr. you should not be asking them to mock 15 picks higher simply to increase probability.

 

[patfanken]

interesting to see how Wendell is perceived by some of us. If you look at the "stats" Wendell was a top 10 C in the league and a big surprise. If you look at 2013 stats, he sucked.

I think you have to look at the stat and trust in the coaching staff to make a smart decision on the C position. The problem with those stats sites is the determination whether a play is graded a plus, minus, or neutral, is that its often as very subjective determination by a judge, who has no idea what the line call and the actual responsibilities for each player.

I can think of a good example when Solder stepped inside on time and allowed a DE/OLB a free run on Brady for a sack. I'm sure Solder was credited with giving up a sack. However what if he did the right thing stepping down but the OL call was wrong, or a RB or TE was supposed to pick up the DE/OLB. Or maybe it WAS Solder's fault. The thing is the guy making the assessment is never going to know.

And you can go on. Brady could make a wrong read and not get the ball out in a timely manner and a sack or hurry happens that didn't have to. Its so many things that its pretty presumptuous to think that some guy sitting in front of TV screen can make a determination of right or wrong. Only the coaching staff of a team can do that. Unfortunately we don't get that info.

For this season, my ideal situation would be where Wendell gets signed for less than $2MM, Connolly gets restructured and essentially pays for Wendell. Cannon moves to RG and Connolly becomes the 3 position back up for the interior OL. Then you sign a quality Swing OT plus 2 developmental players, either from the draft or who we already have on the roster.

As for those looking to draft an C or get a quality swing T from the draft, I don't think this draft is where to go. The 2 names I hear the most are Martin and Bitoni and neither are likely are going to be there at 62 and the need isn't there for the Pats to pick either at 29.

 

[mgteich]

Those of us looking for a developmental RT are looking past the first three rounds. I would want a player to replace Cannon if he goes (or is starting at RG) and compete with him if he stays at backup OT.

interesting to see how Wendell is perceived by some of us. If you look at the "stats" Wendell was a top 10 C in the league and a big surprise. If you look at 2013 stats, he sucked.

I think you have to look at the stat and trust in the coaching staff to make a smart decision on the C position. The problem with those stats sites is the determination whether a play is graded a plus, minus, or neutral, is that its often as very subjective determination by a judge, who has no idea what the line call and the actual responsibilities for each player.

I can think of a good example when Solder stepped inside on time and allowed a DE/OLB a free run on Brady for a sack. I'm sure Solder was credited with giving up a sack. However what if he did the right thing stepping down but the OL call was wrong, or a RB or TE was supposed to pick up the DE/OLB. Or maybe it WAS Solder's fault. The thing is the guy making the assessment is never going to know.

And you can go on. Brady could make a wrong read and not get the ball out in a timely manner and a sack or hurry happens that didn't have to. Its so many things that its pretty presumptuous to think that some guy sitting in front of TV screen can make a determination of right or wrong. Only the coaching staff of a team can do that. Unfortunately we don't get that info.

For this season, my ideal situation would be where Wendell gets signed for less than $2MM, Connolly gets restructured and essentially pays for Wendell. Cannon moves to RG and Connolly becomes the 3 position back up for the interior OL. Then you sign a quality Swing OT plus 2 developmental players, either from the draft or who we already have on the roster.

As for those looking to draft an C or get a quality swing T from the draft, I don't think this draft is where to go. The 2 names I hear the most are Martin and Bitoni and neither are likely are going to be there at 62 and the need isn't there for the Pats to pick either at 29.

 

[PP2]

interesting to see how Wendell is perceived by some of us. If you look at the "stats" Wendell was a top 10 C in the league and a big surprise. If you look at 2013 stats, he sucked.

I think you have to look at the stat and trust in the coaching staff to make a smart decision on the C position. The problem with those stats sites is the determination whether a play is graded a plus, minus, or neutral, is that its often as very subjective determination by a judge, who has no idea what the line call and the actual responsibilities for each player.

I can think of a good example when Solder stepped inside on time and allowed a DE/OLB a free run on Brady for a sack. I'm sure Solder was credited with giving up a sack. However what if he did the right thing stepping down but the OL call was wrong, or a RB or TE was supposed to pick up the DE/OLB. Or maybe it WAS Solder's fault. The thing is the guy making the assessment is never going to know.

And you can go on. Brady could make a wrong read and not get the ball out in a timely manner and a sack or hurry happens that didn't have to. Its so many things that its pretty presumptuous to think that some guy sitting in front of TV screen can make a determination of right or wrong. Only the coaching staff of a team can do that. Unfortunately we don't get that info.

For this season, my ideal situation would be where Wendell gets signed for less than $2MM, Connolly gets restructured and essentially pays for Wendell. Cannon moves to RG and Connolly becomes the 3 position back up for the interior OL. Then you sign a quality Swing OT plus 2 developmental players, either from the draft or who we already have on the roster.

As for those looking to draft an C or get a quality swing T from the draft, I don't think this draft is where to go. The 2 names I hear the most are Martin and Bitoni and neither are likely are going to be there at 62 and the need isn't there for the Pats to pick either at 29.

This.

If the team isn't urgently pursuing a center, this would appear to support the conclusion that they think their problem (e.g., Brady getting hurried or sacked) does not originate at center but elsewhere, and what it is exactly, we have no idea as we don't know the line call, play, concept, or option.

However, that being said, I'd still feel happy if we tried to upgrade. C is still our weakest spot on the line.

 

[Brady6]

I have no problems at all with mocks that give us Martin at 62. Yes, that means that the person doing the mock thinks that he will prbably be available. Saying that we should be able to get him at 62, and then acting on that analysis by not signing a player is free agency is another issue entirely.

Fiederowitz is a good example. Maybe he will be available at 93 (a fine value). The top 4 should long gone. To me, Fiedorwitz in significantly better than those below him. In any case, once the top 4 are gone (LIKELY by 62), Fiedoriwitz will be the top TE on the board. Maybe he will last a full or round or not.

Plan B would be to get one of the many developmental players available in the 4-5 round range. For me, if one wants a top value TE, then the first couple of rounds is where to find the player. If that isn't our strategy (expecting to use our 1st and 2nd elsewhere), then it is more critical to sign a veteran free agent TE. SOMEONE needs to be ready to play in addition to Hooman when Gronk isn't available.

Right now, we have –

LT – Solder as the long-term answer.
LG – Mankins turned 32 five days ago, I am hopeful that he can play three more seasons at a high level.
OC – We need a long-term answer, the draft is the best place to look for that.
RG – We need a long-term answer, Marcus Cannon could be that player he is just 25 years old, and we would have to resign him next year when he is in a contract year. Otherwise, this also needs to be addressed in the draft.
RT – Vollmer should be very good for at least another five years.

I know we disagree on Cannon but I am confident that he can make the transition and perform at a high level. He was outstanding at right tackle last season, allowing just one sack, his skill set is tremendous, he has great size, strength and is surprisingly athletic, to have Cannon 6’5 335Lbs. and Vollmer 6’8 330Lbs. on the strong side of the offensive line would be as powerful as it was with Waters back in 2011.

What I would do is this –

Starting LT-Nate Solder
Starting LG-Logan Mankins
Starting OC -Marcus Martin*
Starting RG-Marcus Cannon
Starting RT-Sebastian Vollmer
Backup OT/OG-Joel Bitonio*
Backup OT/OG-Eben Britton or Will Svitek
Backup OG/OC-Dan Connolly

*Draft Pick

Connolly would be security if Martin or Cannon struggle he could take on their job (if they both fail than my plan sucked and we are screwed). Bitonio is an offensive tackle but fits better long term at guard but he could either play guard and allow us to move Mankins or Cannon to the tackle spot or play tackle himself as the backup.

 

[Miguel]

I'm sure there is a way. Mack's agent has even gone on record as saying he can craft the contract that would be tough for the Browns to match.

The Browns bet $1.654 million in cap space (the difference between the transition tag and the franchise tag) that he can't. I am siding with the Browns front office.

 

[ripatsfan91]

Tampa Bay Bucs Center Jeremy Zuttah - Potential Trade?

Bucs are shopping their starting center, Jeremy Zuttah, after signing Evan Dietrich-Smith. I think he would be a massive upgrade would be interested in him for maybe next years 4th or 5th

 

[Big-T]

re: Tampa Bay Bucs Center Jeremy Zuttah - Potential Trade?

$4.5m cap hit, is he any good if the Bucs signed a replacement?