Secondary Help

[mayoclinic]

You've hit on one problem: talent evaluation. They simply pick players who aren't very good. For years they wouldn't draft a linebacker because none had the requisite 3-4 olb height of 6-4" 250 pounds, so they ended up with guys like AD, that retread from the steelers, a 30+ year old vrabel and no pash rush whatsoever. At leats now with the 4-3 they can actually find some bodies.

Now they're hitting crunch time having to pay huge money to keep guys (vollmer, talib, welker) instead of having guys ready to step up.

This seems rather bizarre to me. No team in the NFL has a limitless pipeline of young talent that keeps them from having to make hard choices about who to pay come "crunch time". It's part of doing business in the salary cap era, and the Pats are as good as any team at evaluating talent and making those choices. Not mistake-free by any means, but their record is testimony to the success of their choices.

The same guys evaluated the talent of Gronkowski, Hernandez, McCourty, Spikes, Mayo, Jones, Hightower, Dennard, Solder, Vollmer, Ridley, etc. They "reached" for Vollmer and he became an All Pro. They "reached" for Ridley and he's the best back they've had since Dillon. They took Jones and Solder for their "upside" when both were considered "not ready" and both have performed well. They snagged the too-slow Spikes, Gronk with spinal stenosis, Dennard after a bar fight with a cop, and Hernandez after a failed drug test, all at a discount relative to their abilities and performance. I don't see that as a "failure of talent evaluation".

 

[kennyb]

they've busted on a lot of high picks though. Wheatley, Wilhite, Butler, the BC guy (who is still around), dowling, even Chung. Almost all WRs have been busts, I don't think they even want to draft them anymore and the cupboard is bare. They should have seen that their passive soft zone was being picked apart and that they needed some press man corners...but the one they drafted is broken...he was broken in college and they just ignored it and drafted him high in the 2nd round. He was known to be a little stiff in college...even if he had perfect health it was a reach.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

they've busted on a lot of high picks though. Wheatley, Wilhite, Butler, the BC guy (who is still around), dowling, even Chung. Almost all WRs have been busts, I don't think they even want to draft them anymore and the cupboard is bare. They should have seen that their passive soft zone was being picked apart and that they needed some press man corners...but the one they drafted is broken...he was broken in college and they just ignored it and drafted him high in the 2nd round. He was known to be a little stiff in college...even if he had perfect health it was a reach.

I think you might be a little to harsh on BB. No team hits on all their draft picks. And fortunately for us, BB is nearly 100% on his 1st round picks. He gambles on the 2nd rounders sometimes and he should really trade ALL his 3rd rounders away, but other than that I am very happy with BB's success in the later rounds of the drafts and his tremendous success in the UDFA market.

 

[DocHoliday]

Note though that their new best Defensive players are exactly the type they usually steer away from - problem childs with attitude.

They need to stop being as averse as they are for character issues, particularly on Defense.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Note though that their new best Defensive players are exactly the type they usually steer away from - problem childs with attitude.

They need to stop being as averse as they are for character issues, particularly on Defense.

Back at his hiring I believe one of Robert Kraft's marching orders given to BB was to not bring shady characters and potential criminals into the community.

 

[LuthierJr]

I would love to see the Pats resign Talib, and then draft Tony Jefferson maybe in the second round. That would give us Talib/Dennard, and McCourty/Jefferson. That's a darn good back 4. The only drawbacks there are that A: Jefferson and McCourty are similar players for similar roles, and B: We would have to spend a 2nd rounder perhaps on Jefferson which I'd rather use that on a DL, or even a OL.

 

[mayoclinic]

There's a kid out of Nebraska named Alfonzo Dennard who I think could be very good for us.

 

[DocHoliday]

There's a kid out of Nebraska named Alfonzo Dennard who I think could be very good for us.

Imagine if we could field two....

 

[ay-yo]

here's how I see the secondary going into the offseason -

Safety:

1. McCourty - given time he will develop into one of the top FS's in the league. Already pretty good
2. Empty
3/4. Gregory and Wilson - suited for back up roles. Wilson could improve since he's young but his lack of PT is disturbing.

Outside CB:

1. Empty - resign Talib
2. Empty
3. Dennard - I think he gets over rated a bit cus people are used to watching crap at CB. However, like Ninko, he is a valuable player who won't lose you games if he starts.
4. Dowling

Inside CB:
1. Empty - resign Arrington
2. Empty - resign Cole

I filled out the depth chart based on an ideal roster but due to salary cap considerations we will need to sacrifice at some positions. We can get by with Dennard or Gregory starting but its not ideal.

Additions I'd like to see:
- I think we need to add a safety to the mix. I'd like to see a former CB who has good coverage ability and great speed. Of course processing speed is very important for the position as well. I'm not really concerned about a
adding an intimidator as long as the guy doesn't miss many tackles. Maybe Leon McFadden?
- we REALLY NEED another outside CB even after we resign Talib. Im perfectly happy starting Dennard and the addition being #3 because we have to work within the confines of the cap. But for the love of God draft somebody who doesn't suck. Mid round pick on a 6' 200lb CB who has experience playing press.
- competition for outside CB 4. Dowling should not be counted on for anything. Late round pick would be nice.

 

[mayoclinic]

here's how I see the secondary going into the offseason -

Safety:

1. McCourty - given time he will develop into one of the top FS's in the league. Already pretty good
2. Empty
3/4. Gregory and Wilson - suited for back up roles. Wilson could improve since he's young but his lack of PT is disturbing.

Outside CB:

1. Empty - resign Talib
2. Empty
3. Dennard - I think he gets over rated a bit cus people are used to watching crap at CB. However, like Ninko, he is a valuable player who won't lose you games if he starts.
4. Dowling

Inside CB:
1. Empty - resign Arrington
2. Empty - resign Cole

I filled out the depth chart based on an ideal roster but due to salary cap considerations we will need to sacrifice at some positions. We can get by with Dennard or Gregory starting but its not ideal.

Additions I'd like to see:
- I think we need to add a safety to the mix. I'd like to see a former CB who has good coverage ability and great speed. Of course processing speed is very important for the position as well. I'm not really concerned about a
adding an intimidator as long as the guy doesn't miss many tackles. Maybe Leon McFadden?
- we REALLY NEED another outside CB even after we resign Talib. Im perfectly happy starting Dennard and the addition being #3 because we have to work within the confines of the cap. But for the love of God draft somebody who doesn't suck. Mid round pick on a 6' 200lb CB who has experience playing press.
- competition for outside CB 4. Dowling should not be counted on for anything. Late round pick would be nice.

I think you're ideal depth chart is nice, but probably unrealistic. Carrying 10 DBs (not including Ebner) is unlikely, and the cap hit/draft capital to add a #2 S and CB is probably prohibitive.

For S, I like Kenny Phillips as a FA. I like Phillip Thomas, David Amerson, Jamar Taylor and Dexter McCoil as draft picks. (though Amerson will probably go higher than I would take him). The South Carolina kid might be an option. I also like the idea of Dowling paired with McCourty at S.

For CB I like Price and Hester from UCLA. McFadden is good.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Phillip Thomas out of Fresno State. His production is excellent, 82 tackles, 4 sacks, 4 forced fumbles and 8 interceptions, 3 returned for touchdowns. Doubt he makes it to the end of the second. The only thing that might push him down is that Mountain West schedule. He might be the best safety in this draft according to some sources out there. Would love to sign his secondary coach Tim McDonald to the Pats.

 

[Sciz]

Would love to sign his secondary coach Tim McDonald to the Pats.

Reportedly going to the Jets

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Ronde Barber

FS - Tampa Bay Buccaneers

 

[Sciz]

Ronde Barber

FS - Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Barber has said before that he doesn't want to play anywhere else but TB. He's either going back there or retiring.

 

[nekromantique]

Right now, we have 4 safetys. We may let Chung go but i'm not so sure about that. Gregory is ok but he's a backup. And Wilson..well who knows about him?

I think hell be a nickel/dime back with the sole purpose of covering TEs.

he's done a pretty decent job of it in recent games.

don't see him as a starter though




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[DocHoliday]

Pipe dream, but Eric Weddle would be sweet

 

[VJCPatriot]

BB tends to use rookies conservatively except in cases of obvious talent (see: Jones, Chandler) or need (see: Gay, Randall). Heck, GRONK didn't start five games his rookie year. So it's not a given that Hayward would have seen the field much here, either.

Umm are you forgetting that Dennard locked down a starting CB position as a rookie? BB uses talent when it appears in front of him. He's not DAFT.

Tavon Wilson was a need pick. The question for us remains, is he just a backup quality player or will the 'light switch' flick on, and he becomes a starter quality player at one of the safety positions?

I still think the Pats need to target safety in the upcoming draft. Gregory is no more than a journeyman/replacement level player. And Wilson shows promise but Chung is definitely on the way out.

A few guys we could look at include:

Mcdonald who is more the physical SS at the line type. He has the size to match up with tight ends and displays some blitzing skills as well.

Elam is a playmaking safety but he's a little on the short side at 5'10 but makes up for it in talent. He's all over the field and might turn into a Bob Sanders type but hopefully with better health.

Rambo is another playmaking safety. A real ballhawk. But his suspension for drugs raises character issues.

Lester had sort of a senior slump compared to his breakout junior year. However he remains a capable safety who can matchup with tight ends with his size/speed combination. Remember that the Pats got Spikes the same way, he had a strong season where he was seen as a 1st round pick, then dropped off for the Pats to scoop up in round 2. Could we see the same scenario happen here on draft day?

Bottom line: Pats need secondary help and this is the deepest draft for safeties in a long time. This is a position of need so I expect we will select at least 1 safety in the 2013 NFL draft.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

This seems rather bizarre to me. No team in the NFL has a limitless pipeline of young talent that keeps them from having to make hard choices about who to pay come "crunch time". It's part of doing business in the salary cap era, and the Pats are as good as any team at evaluating talent and making those choices. Not mistake-free by any means, but their record is testimony to the success of their choices.

The same guys evaluated the talent of Gronkowski, Hernandez, McCourty, Spikes, Mayo, Jones, Hightower, Dennard, Solder, Vollmer, Ridley, etc. They "reached" for Vollmer and he became an All Pro. They "reached" for Ridley and he's the best back they've had since Dillon. They took Jones and Solder for their "upside" when both were considered "not ready" and both have performed well. They snagged the too-slow Spikes, Gronk with spinal stenosis, Dennard after a bar fight with a cop, and Hernandez after a failed drug test, all at a discount relative to their abilities and performance. I don't see that as a "failure of talent evaluation".

Amen to this. This is time of year when we act as if the patriots have failed of betrayed us. The reality is, year in, year out, they are one of the top 5 teams in the league. The other top 5 are constantly rotating. NE has gone 14-2, 13-3 and 12-4 over the last three years, yet somehow they lack talent.

Let's look at the other teams in the leagues who you wish the Pats could switch places with, are the new model team, or have recently won superbowls:

SF A reasonable choice. However, their talent base has come from years of being terrible and having high picks. They have great starters, little depth (no injuries thus far) and will soon have hard cap decisions. However, I could see if you wanted to trade rosters/ cap situation, etc. with them.

Baltimore: a very good team, but I wouldn't want to switch rosters. Soon they will have pay Flacco huge or let him walk. I don't see a better long term horizon there. We has bitterly complained about Super Bowl failures. If they lose this this year, they will have the same or worse history of coming up short.

Seattle: a trendy choice at the moment, and they do have a punishing D. They have drafted well and compiled a good roster. They sample size is small and they play in a tough division. They have some questions o. Offense, particular wide wr. Lets not forget their own defensive meltdown in the final seconds in the playoffs. Not a huge amount of playoff wins here, if you want to trade rosters.

New York Giants: Didn't even make the playoffs in a fairly mediocre division. Very inconsistent week to week/season to season.

Green Bay: we often lament how good Ted Thompson is at getting quality wr's after round 1, his acumen with DBs and his great overall approach. How awesome would we think he is if he was here. Last year, his team got pounded in the playoffs by the Giants, this year, the D was shredded and made no adjustments against SF, and several years ago, they were torched by AZ in the playoffs. Yes, they have a Super Bowl, but do they have any less questions than the patriots right now?

New Orleans: No playoffs this year, bitter playoff loss last year, and far more questions than we have on defense. Newsflash, Drew Bree's looked a lot worse than Tom Brady this year.

Pittsburgh: old and missed the playoffs


So there it is. Not many teams, if any, were better three years ago, and better now. It's the NFL. Every team is trying, every team has holes. You have to make the playoffs, then get hot and catch a few breaks. SF, who looks awesome, ca,e very close to getting beaten by ATl. Atlanta almost lost to Seattle. Baltimore barely got by Denver. The best teams are, barring bad match ups, were close to each other.

I get that we want the PAtriots to be better, that we want them to play better in the playoffs, and that it is interesting to examine the roster and the scheme to analyze how and where to improve.
It is fun to argue, dig deep in the draft, and talk about where the nfl is headed. Clearly, if they don't resign Talib, they need significant help. Even if they do, so help at safety would be good. however, every team has holes. How is Denver, Houston and GB feeling about their secondary right now? Even Seattle, who has a great secondary, got torched when it mattered most. SF got away with a pass interference on Tony G. at the end of a very tight Atlanta game that most teams would have had called.
The patriots have a very good NFL roster, and have consistory been as good as anyone. Who really is the magic team with loads of recent Super Bowls, an awesome roster that can withstand pro bowl free agency losses, and is having continuing NFL success? I am having a hard time finding them.