Reiss take on the Franchise Tag

[PatsWorldChamps]

good point, except i wouldve thought that the "biggest no brainer on earth" was franchising perhaps one of the greatest clutch kickers off all time, and the game winner in all 3 of our super bowls, but apparently the pats brass has other plans. i still hope they franchise samuel though.

re-franchising vinitraitor would have been a horrible move... overpay for an easily replacable kicker (see 4th round, improvement).. give a 20% raise to the highest paid kicker of all time? foolish... did you forget the vinitraitors missed kicks in the SB's?

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Read post 19 and tell me how you will trade him if he insists on being a free agent and refuses to agree to a contract with any trading partner.

You're just being silly because he's playing for the long term contract - which he will get this offseason, btw. All that BS you're talking about isn't going to get it for him. They Franchise him. If he doesn't like it, he can go out and find a team that will give him - and give the Patriots - what they want.

You're making it more confrontational that it is. Samuel just wants his long term contract - with us or someone else. All this holdout stuff is silly.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This is silly. You CANNOT get value for him unless he wants you to get value. You cannot trade him under the tag unless he wants to be traded. You describe the best case scenario. You say there is no reason to care if he is happy or pissed and expect the agent to go along with the Pats best case scenario when they are denying Samuel what he wants for no other reason then for them to get a draft pick.

If he is pissed, how are you going to trade him? All he has to do is refuse to sign a deal with the team the pats want to trade with. You can't trade the tag. If he doesn't sign a deal, there is no trade.

He has three choices if he is unhappy. He doesn't sign the franchise agreement until hours before the opening game. Then he doesn't have to attend any training camp functions at all. He shows up, gets paid, but doesn't get used much because he was not part of training camp and does not know any of the new plays.

Choice B is to not sign the agreement at all, to sit out until he feels like signing. He loses money, but the pats are up the creek. They have no CB. And if they trade for one during the season, but they have to keep 7.9 million of free space because Samuel can sign at any time. If they withdraw the tag, Samuel is a FA and the Pats have sent a clear message to every player in the league that they are a-holes.

Choice C is to sign the tag hours before the opening game, and talk to the press about anything he wants, describe every players injury, whatever he wants. Pats will take one week of this before dropping the tag and Samuel will be a FA and the Pats will be the same A-holes they were with choice B.

Space, it's no skin off Asante's nose if we get value for him. You are way over-dramatizing this. All he cares about is getting his deal. If we won't give it to him, he would much prefer to be traded to someone who will rather than be expected to play under the tag. It's business, and he and his agent understand that. They would prefer to be let go on their own with no strings, but their second choice is to be let go with a little string.

In fact the tag talk just bolsters his value. Kinda like Deions's agent asking he not be tagged, which was perhaps a little pre-emptive PR spin on his part to link his player with the franchise player tag. Did Deion refuse to be traded? Of course he didn't, in fact he found his own market as Asante will because at the end of the day all these particular guys want is their money. They may say some silly things in parting, but they care less about who signs their checks than the numbers on that check. Just like FA interviewing here will care less about what we did to/with Deion or Asante than what we will do for them.


This team won't tag him except to trade him IMO. They aren't going to play chicken with him all summer - they tried that with Deion and it failed. The only wrinkle in this is if Asante can't find a team willing to pay him the kind of money everyone assumes is out there for him. I doubt that will happen in this market, and in that case he would want to either sign his tag and play in 2007 to prove his value, or sign a long term deal here afterall. Holding out at that point would do his cause harm, not good. But if there is a market for him beyond what we are offering, there will also be someone in that market willing to trade picks for the opportunity to sign him. He knows that, his agent knows that, this FO knows that, and fans need to appreciate that. Asante's motto is Get Paid, and one way or another he will.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Space, it's no skin off Asante's nose if we get value for him. You are way over-dramatizing this. All he cares about is getting his deal. If we won't give it to him, he would much prefer to be traded to someone who will rather than be expected to play under the tag. It's business, and he and his agent understand that. They would prefer to be let go on their own with no strings, but their second choice is to be let go with a little string.

In fact the tag talk just bolsters his value. Kinda like Deions's agent asking he not be tagged, which was perhaps a little pre-emptive PR spin on his part to link his player with the franchise player tag. Did Deion refuse to be traded? Of course he didn't, in fact he found his own market as Asante will because at the end of the day all these particular guys want is their money. They may say some silly things in parting, but they care less about who signs their checks than the numbers on that check. Just like FA interviewing here will care less about what we did to/with Deion or Asante than what we will do for them.


This team won't tag him except to trade him IMO. They aren't going to play chicken with him all summer - they tried that with Deion and it failed. The only wrinkle in this is if Asante can't find a team willing to pay him the kind of money everyone assumes is out there for him. I doubt that will happen in this market, and in that case he would want to either sign his tag and play in 2007 to prove his value, or sign a long term deal here afterall. Holding out at that point would do his cause harm, not good. But if there is a market for him beyond what we are offering, there will also be someone in that market willing to trade picks for the opportunity to sign him. He knows that, his agent knows that, this FO knows that, and fans need to appreciate that. Asante's motto is Get Paid, and one way or another he will.

I agree with this post except for the part at the end comparing this to the Deion situation. Deion was looking at giving up 10/16 (or is it 9/16?) of 1M if he held out. Asante would be giving up 10/16 of 8M. There is no way Asante holds out. I agree that they should look to trade him, but if a worthy offer never comes along having him for a year at 8M isn't a bad thing.

 

[TeamPats]

One thing that should not be overlooked, is that if you let him walk we would likely get a 3rd round compensatory pick in the following draft. I still think we should Tag him, but Belioli definately takes into account compensatory picks when they determine whether or not to sign someone.

 

[Strange Brew]

Another thing to keep in mind is that Buffalo won't tag Clements, so if we wait the pricetag for a top CB will be set whether we like it or not. Since it's unlikely that the Pats & Asante will agree before we are forced to tag him, the price for Asante will likely be set for us by what someone pays (overpays) Clements. Would the Pats pay Asante a similar figure? I doubt it.
P.S. Be kind...1st time poster, long time lurker.

 

[spacecrime]

Space, it's no skin off Asante's nose if we get value for him.

Didn't say it was. i said you cannot franchise and trade him unless he agrees. I said the attitude of it doesn't matter if he is happy about it or not is totally incorrect.

I'm saying his attitude is what matters most.

I'm saying if he wants a long term contract, he is better off in FA than being franchised.

It is totally up to him, and this idea that it doesn't matter if he is pissed or not couldn't be more wrong.

I would love to see him franchised and traded.

But if you were Samuel's agent, what would you prefer: the ability to deal with any team on your terms to get the best salary you can get, or be required to satisfiy the Patriots need for a good pick, and figure that a team that would offer a $40 mil contract for a FA would be just as willing to offer a first round pick AND $40 million?

It just does not make sense for a player to accept being franchised and traded. That is why it almost never happens.

I hope he is agreeable to being franchised and traded. But I still say it is totally up to im, and the worst case scenario is NOT that we let him walk. It is that we franchise him and he goes Deion on us.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Didn't say it was. i said you cannot franchise and trade him unless he agrees.

He wants a long term deal to his liking. Whether a team has to trade for the right to give it to him is irrelevant.

You can't have it both ways. The reason he doesn't want to be Franchised is he wants a long term deal. But then you say he may not accept a long term deal from a team if the team has to trade for him. It makes no sense. If a team offers him what he wants, he'll agree . . . end of story.

 

[spacecrime]

I agree with this post except for the part at the end comparing this to the Deion situation. Deion was looking at giving up 10/16 (or is it 9/16?) of 1M if he held out. Asante would be giving up 10/16 of 8M. There is no way Asante holds out.

Asante gives up nothing if he holds out because he knows, Deion knows, you know, everyoen knows, the Patriots will not tolerate a disruptive and devisive situation. They will release the tag as the Eagles did with -who was it? Simon? Trotter? - a couple years ago.

The Pats cannot afford to play the bully on this. How can they try to sign a FA at the same time they are bullying one of their own FAs into submission. What an enticement.

I'm not an advocate of players holding out, I think agents have way too much power.

But this is one area where the club would be interfering with the player's right to market himself. If he agrees with the franchise/trade, fine. If he does not, there could be no worse scenario than trying to force him.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Asante gives up nothing if he holds out because he knows, Deion knows, you know, everyoen knows, the Patriots will not tolerate a disruptive and devisive situation. They will release the tag as the Eagles did with -who was it? Simon? Trotter? - a couple years ago.

Because the Patriots are ****ies who can't play poker right ? You must be kidding. Did they just release Branch ? How about Glenn and his distraction ? They kicked him off the team and still got two 4ths for him.

 

[patfanken]

I hate to be old school about this, but I NEVER understood why being "Franchised" is so onerous to a player. Think about it. The dastardly Patriots would FORCE poor Assante to accept a mere EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS or so, inorder to play another year with a great team, a great organization, who is likely to contend for another superbowl.

Yeah, I'm sure he'd rather have the LT deal with the TEN MILLION DOLLAR signing bonus, but REALLY when is a LT deal in the NFL a LT deal in the end. To think that paying Samuel the average of the top 5 CBs in the league is onerous, is ridiculous.

DOES anyone here think that an $8MM hit wouldn't set a person up FOR LIFE? So lets not cry poor mouth for dear old Assante, we already have been through this with Ty Law. The fact is that Assante had a super year, BUT its only one great year in a row. You CANNOT break the salary structure for someone who has had just ONE great year. There are TOO many examples of this turning bad to ignore it.

BOTTOM LINE: I agree, franchise him, let the market be set by Clememts (BTW a guy who has been a great CB for SEVERAL years). Sure try and work out a LT deal after that, or do a trade. But to let him just walk, is just bad business. And if he behaves like a whiney child a la Deion, then it just shows that there is a character flaw that proves he wasn't worth the LT deal in the first place.

Its time the players recognize that the same contract they all signed that allows them FA is the same one that give the teams the right to Franchise ONE player a year. The Pats spent 4 years nurturing Samuels and aiding him to reach the potential he showed this year. The reason they have the Franchise rule is to protect teams from being used as development squads for other teams. And as I said before, being paid 7 or 8 million for 2007 isn't exactly exploitation.

BTW- since it was metioned throughout the thread, NOT signing Adam was the absolutely RIGHT thing to do. Besides, I think Adam, in his mind, was gone already. He recognized he was on the down side, and getting a 20% raise plus playing the great majority of his games in a dome would only extend his career. He did what was best for him, and the Pats did what was best for THEM, and it worked out great for BOTH sides,

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

One thing that should not be overlooked, is that if you let him walk we would likely get a 3rd round compensatory pick in the following draft. I still think we should Tag him, but Belioli definately takes into account compensatory picks when they determine whether or not to sign someone.

Just never become a car dealer and start selling cars for half value

We'd have a shot at a #3 but it's at the end of the 3rd round, just above a second day pick. We can do a lot better than that. Even a bad trade would be worth more than a #3 a year away.

But you are right that as an absolute worst case, getting a 2008 late #3 and getting the $8M to spend on other FA isn't losing him for nothing, there's some value there.

 

[zippo59]

How owuld franchising Samuel affect our ability to go after some of the more desired free agents like Thomas, Grant, Fletcher etc., if at all?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I agree with this post except for the part at the end comparing this to the Deion situation. Deion was looking at giving up 10/16 (or is it 9/16?) of 1M if he held out. Asante would be giving up 10/16 of 8M. There is no way Asante holds out. I agree that they should look to trade him, but if a worthy offer never comes along having him for a year at 8M isn't a bad thing.

Deion was losing money from day one via fines that can't be imposed on a tagged player for skipping camp. And there was an offer on the table for 3 years $19M implicitly guaranteed including an $8M signing bonus, yet he held out. Don't underestimate the willingness of the player to play the risk reward card either. Deion held out on $8M here and got $12.5M in Seattle, plus we got a first round pick.

 

[ayjackson]

A couple of factors that the Pats may consider when deciding who to tag is that Graham would fetch at best a 5th rounder as compensation and Assante would likely fetch a 3rd. In tag and trade scenarios, they're less than a round apart in value, I think. That would favour tagging Graham.

Also, if we sign a big FA - like Thomas - it would likely cancel out most compo picks in the '08 draft. So if Assante wasn't re-signable at a reasonable rate, we'd be better off to franchise him and let him walk in a year, rather than letting him walk this year (from a compensation view only). We'd get the high pick in '09.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

How owuld franchising Samuel affect our ability to go after some of the more desired free agents like Thomas, Grant, Fletcher etc., if at all?

It would eat the $8M into the cap while he's Franchised but with $25M or so available that would be a fairly minor issue.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

I couple of factors that the Pats may consider when deciding who to tag is that Graham would fetch at best a 5th rounder as compensation and Assante would likely fetch a 3rd. In tag and trade scenarios, they're less than a round apart in value, I think. That would favour tagging Graham.

I don't think so, you aren't going to get a big trade for Graham. You could get a bit more than as a comp pick, sure, but while Samuel could legitimitely get a #1 (not saying for sure, you have to find the team but it could easily happen), I think a #3 for Graham is about the best you're looking at.

 

[solman]

good point, except i wouldve thought that the "biggest no brainer on earth" was franchising perhaps one of the greatest clutch kickers off all time, and the game winner in all 3 of our super bowls, but apparently the pats brass has other plans. i still hope they franchise samuel though.

You might have thought that, but it turns out that you were wrong. The Patriots got a rookie kicker for much less money and a reasonable draft choice, and he performed just as well as Adam had been performing. Plus we will have him for many years to come (at a low cost), whereas Adam could only have been franchised one more time, and had absolutely no interest in staying in New England.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

I couple of factors that the Pats may consider when deciding who to tag is that Graham would fetch at best a 5th rounder as compensation and Assante would likely fetch a 3rd. In tag and trade scenarios, they're less than a round apart in value, I think. That would favour tagging Graham.

Also, if we sign a big FA - like Thomas - it would likely cancel out most compo picks in the '08 draft. So if Assante wasn't re-signable at a reasonable rate, we'd be better off to franchise him and let him walk in a year, rather than letting him walk this year (from a compensation view only). We'd get the high pick in '09.

thank you for mentioning the other side of comp picks: anyone NE signs.

I think you are way off on the trade compensation differences between Graham and Samuel though. If Abraham and Deion net you a 1st then Asante should get you a 1st+. Asante is perceived as a top 5 CB at a flashy position and a great sell to fans and the media. Trading for asante makes a splash in an off-season where a lot of teams have money to spend and there aren't a lot of free agents to spend it on.

Graham is a solid starter at a non-glamorous position where the only guys who attract attention catch a lot of passes, which Graham hasn't. Oh, and he has an injury history. I don't know if you could trade him for a first day pick.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Didn't say it was. i said you cannot franchise and trade him unless he agrees. I said the attitude of it doesn't matter if he is happy about it or not is totally incorrect.

I'm saying his attitude is what matters most.

I'm saying if he wants a long term contract, he is better off in FA than being franchised.

It is totally up to him, and this idea that it doesn't matter if he is pissed or not couldn't be more wrong.

I would love to see him franchised and traded.

But if you were Samuel's agent, what would you prefer: the ability to deal with any team on your terms to get the best salary you can get, or be required to satisfiy the Patriots need for a good pick, and figure that a team that would offer a $40 mil contract for a FA would be just as willing to offer a first round pick AND $40 million?

It just does not make sense for a player to accept being franchised and traded. That is why it almost never happens.

I hope he is agreeable to being franchised and traded. But I still say it is totally up to im, and the worst case scenario is NOT that we let him walk. It is that we franchise him and he goes Deion on us.

I would prefer to be lots of things I can't be, so I deal. So do these players and their agents.

Tag and trade is happening more and more - Len P did a piece on that a while ago. Abraham was tagged and traded because he had a market. Corey Simon apparently didn't or couldn't be bothered cultivating it, nor were the Eagles that interested in trading him. They used the tag to retain him, had second thoughts for apparently good reason given his history. When they released him his option were go to the Colts who were the only team who had the money and need in July, go elsewhere for less, or learn to knit. And as fate would have it the Eagles were right in their assessment of him - he wasn't worth the tag or a big deal, and now Polian is lamenting signing him and is trying to weassel out of it.

Let him go Deion - all Deion wanted was out and a LT deal. Tag and trade will give Asante just that, and the more he cooperates the more attractive he appears to potential suitors who would rather have him in the spring than have to assimilate him on the fly in July or August after spending cap dollars on alternate options.