Rebuilding, or playing to win?

[dliverey44]

Wish there was a third choice for “playing to be respectable enough that free agents want to come here.”

New coaching staff, essentially two rookie classes, ton of new personnel. Last OL we saw with pads on was a total mess.

I admire folks who can see the pieces for a playoff team there. I think 9 or 10 wins and respectability is the goal

Well a 9-10 win team is a playoff team so your goal of 9 or 10 wins is basically the same as a playoff team. Mind you 9-10 wins do guarantee playoffs, but last year there were several 10 win teams in the tourney. Conversely a 9 win team is only one game over 500

 

[Hugepatsfan]

I think people are conflating topics. This team still doesn't look very good on paper and isn't really built to "win now" in a big picture sense. With a weak schedule they have a shot at .500, maybe even better but they're still horrifically untalented relative to other teams. They are "rebuilding" if you set the goal posts at being championship caliber.

That's different than individual assessments of playing time. OP specifically mentioned the center position. If Wilson doesn't outplay Bradbury, then they should start Bradbury. I understand that it might be better for Wilson's development to play, but it's better for everyone else's development to have more support in place. Maye having better protection is going to help him develop. Better running lanes will help Henderson find his NFL footing. So on and so forth.

I would say overall the team should look at themselves as a work in progress and that's how the front office should approach it (i.e. not paying high picks and big contracts for players via trade, being ok rolling over some cap space, etc.). But the coaching staff needs to "rebuild" the culture and that means playing to win in terms of the day to day and week to week gameplans/playing time allocations.

 

[Family]

Whole OL could be seen as thin, very unsettled and fluid. Biggest question mark about whether the talent there is real or illusory. Strange and Sow and the rest of them still have a lot to prove.

I think Strange is a gonna as a starter IMO.

The left side of our line will be two rookies that might build swagger as the season progresses.

I think Sow will be the primary backup at both guards, or Wallace at LG, if he ever shows something.

 

[Thelonious]

Sounds like you can’t answer, not choosing not to.

They’re thin… where?

Heh. Let's pretend this is a toss-up question. Ring those bells, contestants!

 

[Give Kraft A Hand]

That meme is clean like a new white suit

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Moses?
Chaisson?

Lots of FAs came here this year. Total makeover is seen as an opportunity. Question is whether it still looks as attractive next year.

Agree. I get tired of the same old tropes being repeated over an over. Like, "Our drafts have sucked for years" when the 2023 draft was quite good (Gonzo, White, Douglas, Boutte, Sow, Baringer, and more).

Over and over posters confidently say that FAs don't want to come to NE (false - in 2025 we signed a lot of FAs), and the recent drafts were disasters (false the 2023 draft with up to 6 to 8 starters was an amazing draft, and the only reason we are so optimistic today).

 

[n1997y]

I think people are conflating topics. This team still doesn't look very good on paper and isn't really built to "win now" in a big picture sense. With a weak schedule they have a shot at .500, maybe even better but they're still horrifically untalented relative to other teams. They are "rebuilding" if you set the goal posts at being championship caliber.

That's different than individual assessments of playing time. OP specifically mentioned the center position. If Wilson doesn't outplay Bradbury, then they should start Bradbury. I understand that it might be better for Wilson's development to play, but it's better for everyone else's development to have more support in place. Maye having better protection is going to help him develop. Better running lanes will help Henderson find his NFL footing. So on and so forth.

I would say overall the team should look at themselves as a work in progress and that's how the front office should approach it (i.e. not paying high picks and big contracts for players via trade, being ok rolling over some cap space, etc.). But the coaching staff needs to "rebuild" the culture and that means playing to win in terms of the day to day and week to week gameplans/playing time allocations.

Ken made a comment over in the Day 5 thread that I totally agree with: “…even the camp guys who have no chance of making an NFL are wildly skilled athletes”.

You say “This team still doesn't look very good on paper” but I think that’s a selective misinterpretation or perhaps a misstatement. It’s more that there are a lot of talented young players who really haven’t put any history on paper, good or bad.

How can you say that Maye, Diggs, Williams, Pop, Boutte, Henderson, Stevenson, Henry and Hooper look bad on paper? Most you can really say is that four of them have no substantial body of work in the NFL to evaluate.

There’s really just one area that doesn’t look good, on paper the OL still looks shaky. Even there it’s more questions than demonstrated problems. Both OTs and the C are new to the team, with two of them being established as successful veterans elsewhere. One OG is a solid veteran, and there are several experienced players plus a promising rookie in the mix to fill out the IOL.

And where are the problems on the other side of the ball?

 

[Hugepatsfan]

Ken made a comment over in the Day 5 thread that I totally agree with: “…even the camp guys who have no chance of making an NFL are wildly skilled athletes”.

You say “This team still doesn't look very good on paper” but I think that’s a selective misinterpretation or perhaps a misstatement. It’s more that there are a lot of talented young players who really haven’t put any history on paper, good or bad.

How can you say that Maye, Diggs, Williams, Pop, Boutte, Henderson, Stevenson, Henry and Hooper look bad on paper? Most you can really say is that four of them have no substantial body of work in the NFL to evaluate.

There’s really just one area that doesn’t look good, on paper the OL still looks shaky. Even there it’s more questions than demonstrated problems. Both OTs and the C are new to the team, with two of them being established as successful veterans elsewhere. One OG is a solid veteran, and there are several experienced players plus a promising rookie in the mix to fill out the IOL.

And where are the problems on the other side of the ball?

I'm obviously speaking about them as NFL players. Sure, as humans every single player on the roster is an exceptionally talented individual. Even the last guy on the roster, like you said.

But that's not just the case for us, that's the case for every NFL team. Drake Maye is obviously very talented but at this stage of his career you'd be hard pressed to solidly convince me he's in the top half of QBs. The OL looks like one of the worst units in the league even with some improvements off last year - that's how bad it was. Diggs in his 30s coming off ACL tear is, on paper, one of the weaker #1 WRs. Pop Douglas is obviously talented, but you're a homer if you don't rank him as one of the worst #2 WRs in the NFL. The RB and TE groups have ok players but unless Henderson is a day 1 stud neither looks like a position group capable of being so good that it uplifts anything else around them.

On defense, the outside man coverage looks elite, their LB and Safety group looks strong vs the run, their edge looks strong vs the run and thier inside pass rush looks fierce. On the other hand... their interior DL is awful vs the run on paper, their edge rush lacks any substance because White gives back any play he makes by being incapable of setting the edge and Landry couldn't win any individual matchups last year, their LBs and SSs are awful in coverage.

Taking a step back even, there isn't a team with less top end talent. This team lacks any sort of talent that forces another team to really gameplan for other than Gonzo. They don't have anyone else who you can say really elevates others around them to make up for weaknesses.

BB did the double whammy of drafting terribly in his last few years while also, except for the final year, keeping our record respectable, which meant poor draft status and thus less talented players. Most teams that draft poorly end up at the top of the round where you at least stumble into talent. BB was reaching left and right and taking not only busts but ones without (relatively speaking) tons of talent relative to draft status. It left an incredibly bare cupboard. It's absolute mind blowing how untalented our team became relative to other NFL rosters and one offseason of signing mostly average players and no one who can be expected to play at a pro bowl level on paper doesn't come close to bridging that gap.

 

[Wozzy]

I'm obviously speaking about them as NFL players. Sure, as humans every single player on the roster is an exceptionally talented individual. Even the last guy on the roster, like you said.

But that's not just the case for us, that's the case for every NFL team. Drake Maye is obviously very talented but at this stage of his career you'd be hard pressed to solidly convince me he's in the top half of QBs. The OL looks like one of the worst units in the league even with some improvements off last year - that's how bad it was. Diggs in his 30s coming off ACL tear is, on paper, one of the weaker #1 WRs. Pop Douglas is obviously talented, but you're a homer if you don't rank him as one of the worst #2 WRs in the NFL. The RB and TE groups have ok players but unless Henderson is a day 1 stud neither looks like a position group capable of being so good that it uplifts anything else around them.

On defense, the outside man coverage looks elite, their LB and Safety group looks strong vs the run, their edge looks strong vs the run and thier inside pass rush looks fierce. On the other hand... their interior DL is awful vs the run on paper, their edge rush lacks any substance because White gives back any play he makes by being incapable of setting the edge and Landry couldn't win any individual matchups last year, their LBs and SSs are awful in coverage.

Taking a step back even, there isn't a team with less top end talent. This team lacks any sort of talent that forces another team to really gameplan for other than Gonzo. They don't have anyone else who you can say really elevates others around them to make up for weaknesses.

BB did the double whammy of drafting terribly in his last few years while also, except for the final year, keeping our record respectable, which meant poor draft status and thus less talented players. Most teams that draft poorly end up at the top of the round where you at least stumble into talent. BB was reaching left and right and taking not only busts but ones without (relatively speaking) tons of talent relative to draft status. It left an incredibly bare cupboard. It's absolute mind blowing how untalented our team became relative to other NFL rosters and one offseason of signing mostly average players and no one who can be expected to play at a pro bowl level on paper doesn't come close to bridging that gap.

Simple answer… the team was never that “untalented.” It was poorly managed, coached and schemed… oh yeah, and their QB stunk.

When the owners are meddling, installing an offense the head coach doesn’t respect or want, hiring players and coaches out from under him… you have the calamity we saw the last two years.

Last year’s defense with almost all the same players dropped from 5th in points (PPD) allowed in 2023 to 27th last season… the talent didn’t disappear… the coaching did.

It’s a team game….

 

[Wozzy]

Heh. Let's pretend this is a toss-up question. Ring those bells, contestants!

Or you could just tell us?

 

[DoubleDeluxe]

I think people are conflating topics. This team still doesn't look very good on paper and isn't really built to "win now" in a big picture sense. With a weak schedule they have a shot at .500, maybe even better but they're still horrifically untalented relative to other teams. They are "rebuilding" if you set the goal posts at being championship caliber.

That's different than individual assessments of playing time. OP specifically mentioned the center position. If Wilson doesn't outplay Bradbury, then they should start Bradbury. I understand that it might be better for Wilson's development to play, but it's better for everyone else's development to have more support in place. Maye having better protection is going to help him develop. Better running lanes will help Henderson find his NFL footing. So on and so forth.

I would say overall the team should look at themselves as a work in progress and that's how the front office should approach it (i.e. not paying high picks and big contracts for players via trade, being ok rolling over some cap space, etc.). But the coaching staff needs to "rebuild" the culture and that means playing to win in terms of the day to day and week to week gameplans/playing time allocations.

I think horrifically untalented relative to other teams is a little harsh. Dline and secondary can be very good. LBs could be better, but wedged in between the other D units I expect them to be fine. Oline, we don't know what we have. WRs and TEs are decent, but could be better. RBs look good. But most importantly, this team will go as Drake goes. If he makes a leap, the team will be extremely competitive. Buffalo has had a team full of roster holes for yers but their SB window is always open with Josh. Wash took a huge leap because of Daniels....etc, etc. If Drake steps up, this team can be very good.

 

[Tunescribe]

Not to hurt anyone's feelings, but it's a stupid question. The ONLY way a football team builds for the future is through a win-now approach. Every day. Every game.

 

[mgteich]

Simple answer… the team was never that “untalented.” It was poorly managed, coached and schemed… oh yeah, and their QB stunk.

As we all have said, you have your own set of evaluation technques.

There have been literally hundreds of evaluations of patriot talent over the past three years. You are correct, our players weren't "untalented". However, their talent level was among the very worst in the NFL, and clearly so on Offense.

The management literally chose to build up a $150M cap bank rather than sign talented players.

As an aside, please list our all-pros in the post-Brady era. In 2024, our OL's and WR's rooms were clearly among the 3 least talented.
=================
And our defensive front was sooo good that Vrabel even with Barmore back from injury, Vrabel found the need to bring in 2 DL's, 4 LB's, plus a couple of draftees. ALL will very likely make the team to play with Barmore, White, Jennings, Tavai, Pharms and Roy, unless one of these is also sent packing

Williams, Tonga, Farmer
Spillane, Landry, Gibbens, Chaisson, Swinson

Who were those talented defensive front players from last year?

 

[sb1]

Simple answer… the team was never that “untalented.” It was poorly managed, coached and schemed… oh yeah, and their QB stunk.

When the owners are meddling, installing an offense the head coach doesn’t respect or want, hiring players and coaches out from under him… you have the calamity we saw the last two years.

Last year’s defense with almost all the same players dropped from 5th in points (PPD) allowed in 2023 to 27th last season… the talent didn’t disappear… the coaching did.

It’s a team game….

Yes the coaching was abysmal in 23-24.

And the roster was also untalented. 0 all pros in 23-24. 1 Pro Bowl alternate (Maye) and one special teamer (Schooler). That's it. Says it all if back to back 4-13 seasons didn't say it already. Losing Gonzalez for the season in week 4 last season didn’t help either.

They were 15th in points allowed in 2023, funny that you chose not to cherry pick that one this time. Heh.

 

[mgteich]

A

Not to hurt anyone's feelings, but it's a stupid question. The ONLY way a football team builds for the future is through a win-now approach. Every day. Every game.

Of course, the coaches and players play to win, ever day in every way.

That being said, the management chooses how to manage its cap money, and how much of today's cap money to devote to extending players for the future and how much to roll into the future. A team could spend all that they have, sign highly front-loaded contracts, use void years, options and incentive-laden contracts. There is much management can do to have more talent NOW and deal with the future when it comes. And I'm not even considering the extreme contracts that some teams are using.

Let's be clear, Vrabel did a HUGE, huge amount in the off-season and might even make another deal or two. However, more could have been done. He has a lot to evaluate this year. There is almost no major contract that needs extending in 2026. Personally, I would not be surprised if we are a major, major player again in 2026.