Post Game Thread- Pats beat the Chiefs

[WaterfallJumper]

You are fully aware that we are talking about two entirely different things - family businesses vs. the responsibility of large institutions. C'mon.
I'm talking about being uncomfortable with something. It isn't a complaint, or a criticism, it is a self observation.

Anecdotal evidence incoming (the best and most objective kind of evidence, obviously ).

I work for one of the largest tech companies in the world, and yet the CEO's sons are part of key positions in the leadership and development teams (and do a pretty good job). Just because they have shareholders to appease and they run a multi-billion dollar per year corporation, doesn't mean that they can't bring in family members. There's nothing sacred or special about large institutions -- the bad optics can be completely circumvented with the right kind of company culture and transparency. For my company, no one cares about the family hires, because they're well liked and do a good job, and they've grown the portfolio and overall revenue of the company.

As for your personal feelings of discomfort, well, maybe you shouldn't let your specific training in your profession bias you so much. There's plenty of room in the world for different kinds of business practices and dynamics, even if they run counter to your preference. In this case, clearly Kraft doesn't have a problem with the situation. The players have all been effusive in their praise for the younger Belichick coaches. I wouldn't be surprised if they turn into lifers in the coaching industry, just like many other NFL coaches today who got their start because they grew up around the business.

Oh, and "deadly important" that people make the right hires? Now it's my turn to say "C'mon." I don't think a single corporation in the world has all the right people at all the right positions, because companies are comprised of humans, who are inherently fallible. No one is ever perfect in every choice and action. And even if each individual is "objectively" the right person for the job, that doesn't guarantee synergy or team success, which I would argue is far more important than objective qualifications. As Belichick has often said, it's about "building a team, not collecting talent."

Sometimes the best team comes from within the family.

 

[maineman209]

I've see this phrased two ways: that a beer was thrown on him, and that some beer was sprayed on him. Which is it? Was there a heavy object involved, or just some foam and watery liquid? To me, that makes a difference. Perhaps it shouldn't, but it does.

It definitely makes a difference.

Back in the late 1970s, the Pontiac Silverdome still sold beer in cans at the concession stands - 16 oz cans, if you wanted one.

I went to a Thanksgiving Day game with my fiancee and her family - end zone seats, Detroit side, lower level. The Lions more or less got blown out by the Bears. Payton had a day by himself, IIRC - something over 150 rushing and another 100 receiving and a couple scores.

With about 3-4 minutes left in the game, right after the Bears scored again (Payton on a long reception, I think), some drunken, pissed off fans in the 3rd tier on the Bears side started flinging their beer cans onto the Bears' bench.

Full ones.

Stadium security got involved right away, but that just seemed to piss even more people off enough to start an even bigger fusillade. The refs called the game without starting the clock again and cleared the field.

From our vantage point, it took a minute to figure out what was happening and leave, though we were in no apparent danger.

The next day, the Freep and the News ran photos of the aftermath on the sideline that included a couple of helmets that had been broken by those Stroh's "mortar rounds". A pound of anything coming down on your head from that height is no joke.

Sidebar:
I only found out a dozen or so years ago, that there was a future GOAT on the Lions' sideline for that game, working as the receivers coach. I wonder what he'd have to say about that incident now, in light of the Hill thing.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Read "From Darkness to Dynasty". In it Jerry Thorton writes about the time at Shafer stadium where a man had a heart attack and some drunk was pissing all over the EMT that was performing CPR.

 

[captain stone]

I saw this at home and screamed because I thought damn thats defensive holding at its not close.

But didn't that occur within 5 yards of the LOS?

 

[QuantumMechanic]

But didn't that occur within 5 yards of the LOS?

Doesn't matter. Defensive holding is always a penalty. It's illegal contact that is allowed within 5 yards.

 

[DaBruinz]

Wow, get triggered easily? I'm simply providing a self observation about a discomfort, and explaining the principle on which it is based.

And this is the perfect example of why family hires in large institutions create problems, because they always create the suspicion of an uneven playing field.

I use the surgical ward analogy to make the case: would you want your local hospital hiring the surgeon's relative to operate on your family member? Regardless of that person's qualifications, it raises questions - questions that you as a customer shouldn't have to endure even entering your mind. And if that person is that good, and that qualified, why not get a job elsewhere, to remove the suspicion?

People in leadership roles have a trust bestowed on them to hire the best people, in as objective a manner as possible. Do I really care what happens inside a football team? Of course not, because it doesn't really matter to us as a society. The principle is deadly important when it comes to organizations on which our present and future health, safety, and prosperity rely. And that's been a good deal of my professional training.

Get over yourself already. Triggered? Really? Seriously, you're spiel is unfounded and you've offered up nothing to show that your "discomfort" is based on anything factual.

If anyone is triggered, its you for your incessant need to blather on about how you're uncomfortable.

 

[BTTA]

Anecdotal evidence incoming (the best and most objective kind of evidence, obviously ).

I work for one of the largest tech companies in the world, and yet the CEO's sons are part of key positions in the leadership and development teams (and do a pretty good job). Just because they have shareholders to appease and they run a multi-billion dollar per year corporation, doesn't mean that they can't bring in family members. There's nothing sacred or special about large institutions -- the bad optics can be completely circumvented with the right kind of company culture and transparency. For my company, no one cares about the family hires, because they're well liked and do a good job, and they've grown the portfolio and overall revenue of the company.

As for your personal feelings of discomfort, well, maybe you shouldn't let your specific training in your profession bias you so much. There's plenty of room in the world for different kinds of business practices and dynamics, even if they run counter to your preference. In this case, clearly Kraft doesn't have a problem with the situation. The players have all been effusive in their praise for the younger Belichick coaches. I wouldn't be surprised if they turn into lifers in the coaching industry, just like many other NFL coaches today who got their start because they grew up around the business.

Oh, and "deadly important" that people make the right hires? Now it's my turn to say "C'mon." I don't think a single corporation in the world has all the right people at all the right positions, because companies are comprised of humans, who are inherently fallible. No one is ever perfect in every choice and action. And even if each individual is "objectively" the right person for the job, that doesn't guarantee synergy or team success, which I would argue is far more important than objective qualifications. As Belichick has often said, it's about "building a team, not collecting talent."

Sometimes the best team comes from within the family.

Fair enough. Certainly well reasoned and thoughtfully stated.

I'd still suggest that the tech company might do better by its stakeholders and customers if it scoured the world for the best possible candidates for jobs, rather than hiring family. The two processes are almost always mutually exclusive, because hiring someone that's easy to hire leads to corners being cut on the search process. I'm not concerned about any one instance, just the same process multiplied hundreds of thousands of times around the globe, year over year, through human history.

In your company's case, a change of 10% in leadership capability (vision, strategy, creating alignment, etc.) can easily lead to a 2% change in stock valuation. That's a tangible difference in income for a lot of people whose retirement accounts hold that stock.

 

[BTTA]

Get over yourself already. Triggered? Really? Seriously, you're spiel is unfounded and you've offered up nothing to show that your "discomfort" is based on anything factual.

If anyone is triggered, its you for your incessant need to blather on about how you're uncomfortable.

My experience of our conversation is like this:

You and I are a group of people sitting in someone's living room (in this case, this forum) having a casual conversation about something that doesn't really matter (sports). I simply state that my professional background makes me uncomfortable with something that's happened. Rather than just saying, "huh, that's different for me", you raise the volume of the conversation by labeling me arrogant and wrong.

I'm not arguing or debating. I don't have any interest in those activities, especially here. I do like to explore viewpoints, and here others. Labeling people and raising the temperature on otherwise calm conversation is destructive.

 

[BTTA]

So after reading this thread, the problem doesn't strike me as being about "soft" but about becoming too serious. If all that happened is that the player went to the opposing stands to show off his success, and someone sprayed or threw beer at him that was in a cup, then that player needs to just say, "hey, good one, got me back" and laugh it off. The agent suggesting that somehow he was in danger from this is laughable.

Normally I'm pretty conservative about protecting people's safety at work, but in this case, the player just needs to enjoy life a little more.

 

[jah]

Are we really arguing whether BB practices nepotism? We carried James Ferentz on our payroll for multiple calendar years.

 

[fnordcircle]

So after reading this thread, the problem doesn't strike me as being about "soft" but about becoming too serious. If all that happened is that the player went to the opposing stands to show off his success, and someone sprayed or threw beer at him that was in a cup, then that player needs to just say, "hey, good one, got me back" and laugh it off. The agent suggesting that somehow he was in danger from this is laughable.

Normally I'm pretty conservative about protecting people's safety at work, but in this case, the player just needs to enjoy life a little more.

The safety argument is mostly a dumb one. Maybe if he's got a gluten allergy or something.... Otherwise I'm not sure anyone is actually ever injured by getting a plastic cup of beer dumped on them.

It's just bad behavior and I'm surprised, though I shouldn't be, that people are trying to make this out like the guy is a brave warrior for free speech against the jackbooted PC thugs.

When did being a a-hole and dumping beer on someone become something on which our rights hinge? I really don't get it.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Are we really arguing whether BB practices nepotism? We carried James Ferentz on our payroll for multiple calendar years.

My stance is that nepotism isn't a bad thing, especially in the rapidly changing, post-industrial market that's emerging -- but that's far outside of the football talk, so that's the last I feel like saying on it in this environment. I'm actually keenly interested in cultural critique and shifting paradigms, but I think I'll drop this topic for now.

 

[jah]

The safety argument is mostly a dumb one. Maybe if he's got a gluten allergy or something.... Otherwise I'm not sure anyone is actually ever injured by getting a plastic cup of beer dumped on them.

It's just bad behavior and I'm surprised, though I shouldn't be, that people are trying to make this out like the guy is a brave warrior for free speech against the jackbooted PC thugs.

When did being a a-hole and dumping beer on someone become something on which our rights hinge? I really don't get it.

Didn't you get the memo that the best/only way to own the libs is by being as vulgar as possible, especially when someone asks you not to?

 

[Tony2046]

Not what I'm referring to. It is the integrity of hiring processes. I'm an organizational consultant. I know that when any hiring process is corrupted by anything other than "best person in the world who wants the job, gets the job", the organization suffers. There's simply no way that one of Belichick's sons was the best possible candidate. So it will never sit comfortably with me.

I'm not naive. I'm certainly not upset about it. Just not comfortable. Call it a professional handicap.

I've spent the last twenty years working in small companies. More responsibility and more work but more money. Each company had some level of nepotism but the worst was the " make my daughter the GM" experiment. She was an insane spoiled brat running around on a massive power trip. It caused unnecessary stress, incredible turnover and ultimately severely hindered the company to the point of failure.

That said the company I'm working at now hired the owner's son to work in my department. Haha Yay. The owner told me I would be his manager but because of my past experiences I explained to him that I'd treat him like everyone else and tell him what he needs to do but aside from that he (dad) would be responsible for his performance etc.. To my surprise the owner's son has been one of the best guys I've worked with. He's respectful to everyone, works hard and knows what he's doing.

So I agree with you but sometimes albeit rarely it works out. It does add additional challenges for both the company and the employee (son, daughter etc..). The son, for example, has to shake the " Daddy's boy" title which takes a better than average performance to do and the company has to absorb whatever talent the son or daughter may contribute.

Anyway good stuff.

 

[PatsWSB47]

I wound up out of a job after the business owner put his daughter in charge of his 3 businesses....businesses that she had no experience in. She fired all the managers including me and hired her own people at about 1/2 of the salaries, believing that would result in more profit. Less than 2 years later she ran every one if them into the ground. She lost all of them. Thankfully I was able to reinvent myself and in a new career in health care that I wish had done 20 years ago, but that's anither story. With the Pats I think it's a different situation. His sons aren't just lucky sperm kids but have been emersed in everything football from an early age. Hopefully they are grounded enough to not let their relationship with the coach go to their heads.

 

[Tony2046]

Read "From Darkness to Dynasty". In it Jerry Thorton writes about the time at Shafer stadium where a man had a heart attack and some drunk was pissing all over the EMT that was performing CPR.

Oh wow.

 

[Joker]

is it time for a Joe Kerr "YANKEE!!!!!!!!!!!" outburst, once again?...you know, to add some much needed naked insanity to this ridiculous dustup over a goddamned spilled beer?

 

[BTTA]

is it time for a Joe Kerr "YANKEE!!!!!!!!!!!" outburst, once again?...you know, to add some much needed naked insanity to this ridiculous dustup over a goddamned spilled beer?

No idea what the outburst would be, but the answer is very likely "yes."

 

[The Brandon Five]

I wound up out of a job after the business owner put his daughter in charge of his 3 businesses....businesses that she had no experience in. She fired all the managers including me and hired her own people at about 1/2 of the salaries, believing that would result in more profit. Less than 2 years later she ran every one if them into the ground. She lost all of them. Thankfully I was able to reinvent myself and in a new career in health care that I wish had done 20 years ago, but that's anither story. With the Pats I think it's a different situation. His sons aren't just lucky sperm kids but have been emersed in everything football from an early age. Hopefully they are grounded enough to not let their relationship with the coach go to their heads.

Until safety play improves I am going to say the jury is out on Stephen.

 

[Joker]

No idea what the outburst would be, but the answer is very likely "yes."

I exploded with pent up rage and fury when the Red Sox beat the bigmouthed pinstriped pinheads...easily as idiotic as anything in this thread so far...