Personnel Misses

[b72s]

This week the press is saying the brass uncharacteristically missed on FAs Brown, Beisel and Starks.

I agree on maybe 2 of 3. But we need to give Beisel some time similar to Bruschi's rise.

Just Like Tedy did, he needs to learn the system and fully convert to Linebacker from a down lineman. The Mike is a huge responsibility in the pats system.

It took Tedy a more than a few years to go from special teamer to full time Mike.

I just think it may be a little early to give up on him and he is apparently frustrated with his play and the conversion (i.e. Curran incident) but unless we draft another LB, we can do a lot worse than having Beisel being tutored by Tedy.

Does anyone think there is some value?

 

[Richter]

This week the press is saying the brass uncharacteristically missed on FAs Brown, Beisel and Starks.

I agree on maybe 2 of 3. But we need to give Beisel some time similar to Bruschi's rise.

Just Like Tedy did, he needs to learn the system and fully convert to Linebacker from a down lineman. The Mike is a huge responsibility in the pats system.

It took Tedy a more than a few years to go from special teamer to full time Mike.

I just think it may be a little early to give up on him and he is apparently frustrated with his play and the conversion (i.e. Curran incident) but unless we draft another LB, we can do a lot worse than having Beisel being tutored by Tedy.

Does anyone think there is some value?

I even wonder about Starks, if he really was hurt all that time. It may very well have just been an injury miss, and a miss because they traded a pick for a guy that had a long injury history. Chad Brown was definitely a miss though, he's just too far past his prime.

 

[emoney_33]

I think Brown could be a decent backup OLB rushing the qb. He can't play ILB, but we didn't really have anyone else at the beginning of the year.

Also it's not known how much Starks injury really hindered him so while he did absolutely stink this year, it may not have been a bad signing if he stayed healthy.


Performance wise none of these guys have contributed much of anything to the team, but at the time of the signings they may not have been as bad as people think. Hindsight of course is always 20/20

 

[mgteich]

I do think that there was a personnel miss an ILB. Our brain trust seemed to have believed that Brown, Beisel and Chatham could do the job.
------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with comments with regard to the three players.

BEISEL
Many posting here and at kffl thought that Beisel was competing with Chatham and Davis for a emergency linebaker/special team position. I think he is fine in that role. Perhaps he can play a bit more as he learns the system, but I'm fine with him as a backup ILB perhaps competing with Claridge for the first off the bench. He has already beaten out Chatham.

BROWN
Brown is an aging OLB, and a fine backup. He is first off the bench, having easily replaced TBC in that role, even though he has almost no experience with our system playing at OLB. I see no reason no to have him continue in this role.

STARKS
I believe that if Starks didn't play hurt (very injured), we would have lost another game or two. I give Starks a lot of credit. He played hurt when a lot of others didn't. That being said, he is unlikely to be worth anywhere near his new money when he returns next year, and will need to restructure very early or be cut as Law was, very early.

BOTTOM LINE
Management should ahve done better at filling the whole at ILB. I think they did fine at CB (Recall that they also picked up a very capable Chad Scott).

 

[Ring 6]

Mg,
I think that the ILB position was a case of making the best out of a bad situation.

BB liked Beisel, and probably would have signed him even if Bruschi, Phifer and TJ were all ready to go. He got elevated out of necessity.

Brown was a good football player who was available, and in a position with little depth. Again, I think BB signs him even if there wasnt a clear role.

I wouldnt judge it a personnel mismanagement unless there were other players available that they passed on. But I dont think there were.

Because of the record of personnel decisions, I think we sometimes fall into the trap of thinking BB can always find what he wants.
The stark reality is that sometimes all of the options arent good ones. It is entirely possible that BB wasn't exactly thrilled with Beisel and Brown being starting ILBs, but it was the best of string of weak choices.

That said, somehow I have this feeling that Beisel and or Brown will make some type of key play in a playoff game, whether its on defense or special teams, and could go down 'genius role player acquisitions'. It seems par for the course around here, doesnt it?

 

[TruthSeeker]

I agree on Beisel. I think he needs some time to develop. Like Bruschi & Vrabel, he was a college D-Linemen, and it took time for Bruschi & Vrabel to develop. Not saying he will be anywhere near the players those two have become, but he could. I like his size & speed. And his youth. Let's say this was his redshirt year, and let's see what he can do next year. Best case scenerio, he becomes a stud, Colvin replaces McGinest when he retires (I hate saying that) and Vrabel moves back outside. Need a replacement for Bruschi in the near future too.

 

[The Coon]

With our misses, we have also had some "hits" in the draft. Mankins, Hobbs, and Kazcur have all done well this season. I like James Sanders as well and also like Cassel as the #2 QB down the line.

We have another draft next year with the picks we have, and all i can say is WOW. The depth on this team would be unmatched.

 

[Arizona Patsfan]

I do think that there was a personnel miss an ILB. Our brain trust seemed to have believed that Brown, Beisel and Chatham could do the job.
------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with comments with regard to the three players.

BEISEL
Many posting here and at kffl thought that Beisel was competing with Chatham and Davis for a emergency linebaker/special team position. I think he is fine in that role. Perhaps he can play a bit more as he learns the system, but I'm fine with him as a backup ILB perhaps competing with Claridge for the first off the bench. He has already beaten out Chatham.

BROWN
Brown is an aging OLB, and a fine backup. He is first off the bench, having easily replaced TBC in that role, even though he has almost no experience with our system playing at OLB. I see no reason no to have him continue in this role.

STARKS
I believe that if Starks didn't play hurt (very injured), we would have lost another game or two. I give Starks a lot of credit. He played hurt when a lot of others didn't. That being said, he is unlikely to be worth anywhere near his new money when he returns next year, and will need to restructure very early or be cut as Law was, very early.

BOTTOM LINE
Management should ahve done better at filling the whole at ILB. I think they did fine at CB (Recall that they also picked up a very capable Chad Scott).

Nice diagnosis and I like the prognosis too. I'd like to see all three invited back to TC, and to see what they can do for the roles they were ORIGINALLY brought in to play. The openings for the new rookie LB hotshots, can probably come from Davis, Izzo, Chatham, and maybe TBC's jobs in that order.

 

[jczxohn1]

The ILB situation wouldn't have been nearly so bad if TJ hadn't unexpectedly retired. No offense to Big Ted, he did what he had to do, but it certainly wasn't in the plan.

 

[DaBruinz]

The ILB situation wouldn't have been nearly so bad if TJ hadn't unexpectedly retired. No offense to Big Ted, he did what he had to do, but it certainly wasn't in the plan.

The only thing that I can surmise about the Ted Johnson situation is that he suffered a concussion, somehow, during the mini-camps or that Johnson wasn't upfront with the team about his concussion. Otherwise, how is it that the Patriots didn't know he had Post Concussion syndrome and wouldn't pass a physical? Had they known this prior to the draft, I think they would have changed their drafting priorities. Though, i wouldn't replace any of our top 3 picks.

I know we drafted Claridge and there weren't many option on the free agent market, but there were some (Ed Hartwell, Anthony Pierce) besides Beisel.

But, as was said, I think the Pats made the most of a bad situation.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Brown and Beisel played ILB better then people give them credit for. They now can learn and play situational ball without the pressure of being the core of the defense.

As to media biatching about personnel decisions, they've been at it since early in the season. Since BB doesn't share his training assessments and player's medical status with them, I take their assessments with a quart of salt.

 

[mgteich]

I don't think we made the best of a bad situation at all. Obviously, we were fine once Bruschi came back AND Vrabel was moved inside during the same week.

my bottom line is that it was absolutely 100% clear that we needed the best ILB out there when Bruschi went down, and perhaps two to make sure that we got at least one starter, so both could start if Vrabel couldn't move inside.
Does anyone here really believe that bb and pioli were incapable of signing anyone better than Beisel and Brown from the time Bruschi went down?

---------------------------------------------------
1) No one expected much out of Phifer or Ted Johnson in 2005. At best they were to be backups.
2) The physical condition of Phifer and Johnson were known to the patriots, or did Ted skip the mini camps and stay away from the team since the SB?
3) After the Super Bowl was over, we knew we needed an inside linebacker. At the time, many of us suggested Vrabel, so that the best four linebackers would start.
4) When Bruschi had his stroke, there were still linebackers available. Also this was definitely BEFORE the draft. I strongly disagree with aj's poisition that there were no better inside linebackers out there than Beisel and Brown.
5) I support the signings of Beisel and Brown.
6) I support not drafting a linebacker earlier, since we did well, and perhaps bb and pioli believe that any college linebacker is a prospect in our defense.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there is a choice. Either Beisel and Brown were signed as starters or they weren't. That Ted left us need for a backup is not the issue I'm addressing. As we see now, the backup ILB needn't get too many reps.

If Management signed Beisel and Brown as starting ILB's, they made an error or two.

If they thought that we didn't need a quality ILB or two, they made an error.

If they thought that Phifer and Ted Johnson were starting, and Beisel and Brown wold be backups, then they were downright delusional. bb and pioli are much better planners than that.

Perhaps Vrabel would move inside. Perhaps his injuries were bad enough to keep him from making the switch, even though he wasn't needed as a starter outside.
---------------------------------------------
So, to repeat, my bottom line is that it was absolutely 100% clear that we needed the best ILB out there when Bruschi went down, and perhaps two to make sure that we got at least one starter, so both could start if Vrabel couldn't move inside.

 

[shatch62]

I know we drafted Claridge and there weren't many option on the free agent market, but there were some (Ed Hartwell, Anthony Pierce) besides Beisel.

But, as was said, I think the Pats made the most of a bad situation.

Pierce and Hartwell signed for 20+ million and there was not way the Pats were going to pay that. I was surprised that the Pats made no effort to get Rob Morris from Indy. He is nothing special but he fight the Pats style a hell of a lot more then Dungy’s style (speed).

As for Beisel, while he did play some brutal football the d-line was not playing anywhere near the level they are playing now. I’m not saying Beisel would be playing at Vrabel’s or Bruschi’s level but I think he would have been more productive than he was if Wilfork was playing early like he is now.

AS for next year two LBs that I think might fit nicely in NE are Nick Greisen (free agent) of the Giants and Ben Leber (likely release due to Merriman)of the Chargers.

 

[bosfan]

The only thing that I can surmise about the Ted Johnson situation is that he suffered a concussion, somehow, during the mini-camps or that Johnson wasn't upfront with the team about his concussion. Otherwise, how is it that the Patriots didn't know he had Post Concussion syndrome and wouldn't pass a physical? Had they known this prior to the draft, I think they would have changed their drafting priorities. Though, i wouldn't replace any of our top 3 picks.

I know we drafted Claridge and there weren't many option on the free agent market, but there were some (Ed Hartwell, Anthony Pierce) besides Beisel.

But, as was said, I think the Pats made the most of a bad situation.

That is a puzzler, he was a big loss (3rd ranked tackler) in the middle, am sure if BB had known soon enough he would have done more.

 

[bosfan]

We have another draft next year with the picks we have, and all i can say is WOW. The depth on this team would be unmatched.

Don't go there, pleeeze, that "depth" thing has a scary ring to it, that was almost a board concensus about this season (after our last draft). I also felt we surely were going to be so strong, deep and dominant - hello.......... But maybe in a way our depth has been what has kept us afloat until we healed up. Anyway, I like where we are now...........

 

[Ring 6]

I don't think we made the best of a bad situation at all. Obviously, we were fine once Bruschi came back AND Vrabel was moved inside during the same week.

my bottom line is that it was absolutely 100% clear that we needed the best ILB out there when Bruschi went down, and perhaps two to make sure that we got at least one starter, so both could start if Vrabel couldn't move inside.
Does anyone here really believe that bb and pioli were incapable of signing anyone better than Beisel and Brown from the time Bruschi went down?

---------------------------------------------------
1) No one expected much out of Phifer or Ted Johnson in 2005. At best they were to be backups.
2) The physical condition of Phifer and Johnson were known to the patriots, or did Ted skip the mini camps and stay away from the team since the SB?
3) After the Super Bowl was over, we knew we needed an inside linebacker. At the time, many of us suggested Vrabel, so that the best four linebackers would start.
4) When Bruschi had his stroke, there were still linebackers available. Also this was definitely BEFORE the draft. I strongly disagree with aj's poisition that there were no better inside linebackers out there than Beisel and Brown.
5) I support the signings of Beisel and Brown.
6) I support not drafting a linebacker earlier, since we did well, and perhaps bb and pioli believe that any college linebacker is a prospect in our defense.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there is a choice. Either Beisel and Brown were signed as starters or they weren't. That Ted left us need for a backup is not the issue I'm addressing. As we see now, the backup ILB needn't get too many reps.

If Management signed Beisel and Brown as starting ILB's, they made an error or two.

If they thought that we didn't need a quality ILB or two, they made an error.

If they thought that Phifer and Ted Johnson were starting, and Beisel and Brown wold be backups, then they were downright delusional. bb and pioli are much better planners than that.

Perhaps Vrabel would move inside. Perhaps his injuries were bad enough to keep him from making the switch, even though he wasn't needed as a starter outside.
---------------------------------------------
So, to repeat, my bottom line is that it was absolutely 100% clear that we needed the best ILB out there when Bruschi went down, and perhaps two to make sure that we got at least one starter, so both could start if Vrabel couldn't move inside.

You keep repeating yourself. I understand you think they should have gotten better players. Youve said nothing about who those players would be.
-Which better players were available?
-Could we afford them?
-Would they have signed here?

Just to find that there were players in free agency doesnt mean we could have signed any or all, if there really were better ones. There are 31 other teams. We dont have an inalienable right to every FA on the market, just because we see need.

Put it this way; if Beisel and Brown were above average for the entire available FA ILB class, then it probably was the best that could be done.

 

[mgteich]

aj,

I just don't have the time to go back to your posts (and others) regarding the dozen or so inside linebackers availablefrom the beginning of free agency. We signed a special teamer and an OLB. No, I don't think they were anywhere near average of the potential starters available from the beginning of free agency and even in the draft. Our Management believed that Beisel and Brown could do the job. They had no plan B other than Chatham. They were wrong. They made a serious mistake, one that will not harm the team, given the collapse of the East, the return of Bruschi and the move of Vrabel inside.

With regard to afford, you more than anyone except Miguel, understand that we could "afford" anyone we really wanted to sign and who wanted top sign with us. But yes, there were many other team wanting ILB's. It seems that we didn't give the position a very high budget.

You keep repeating yourself. I understand you think they should have gotten better players. Youve said nothing about who those players would be.
-Which better players were available?
-Could we afford them?
-Would they have signed here?

Just to find that there were players in free agency doesnt mean we could have signed any or all, if there really were better ones. There are 31 other teams. We dont have an inalienable right to every FA on the market, just because we see need.

Put it this way; if Beisel and Brown were above average for the entire available FA ILB class, then it probably was the best that could be done.

 

[mgteich]

Do you have the details on those contracts? bb is usually willing to pay more for quality linebackers than almost anyone in the league. BTW, the total cost of the contract is irrelevant.

Pierce and Hartwell signed for 20+ million and there was not way the Pats were going to pay that. I was surprised that the Pats made no effort to get Rob Morris from Indy. He is nothing special but he fight the Pats style a hell of a lot more then Dungy’s style (speed).

As for Beisel, while he did play some brutal football the d-line was not playing anywhere near the level they are playing now. I’m not saying Beisel would be playing at Vrabel’s or Bruschi’s level but I think he would have been more productive than he was if Wilfork was playing early like he is now.

AS for next year two LBs that I think might fit nicely in NE are Nick Greisen (free agent) of the Giants and Ben Leber (likely release due to Merriman)of the Chargers.

 

[shatch62]

I don't think we made the best of a bad situation at all. Obviously, we were fine once Bruschi came back AND Vrabel was moved inside during the same week.

my bottom line is that it was absolutely 100% clear that we needed the best ILB out there when Bruschi went down, and perhaps two to make sure that we got at least one starter, so both could start if Vrabel couldn't move inside.
Does anyone here really believe that bb and pioli were incapable of signing anyone better than Beisel and Brown from the time Bruschi went down?

---------------------------------------------------
1) No one expected much out of Phifer or Ted Johnson in 2005. At best they were to be backups.
2) The physical condition of Phifer and Johnson were known to the patriots, or did Ted skip the mini camps and stay away from the team since the SB?
3) After the Super Bowl was over, we knew we needed an inside linebacker. At the time, many of us suggested Vrabel, so that the best four linebackers would start.
4) When Bruschi had his stroke, there were still linebackers available. Also this was definitely BEFORE the draft. I strongly disagree with aj's poisition that there were no better inside linebackers out there than Beisel and Brown.
5) I support the signings of Beisel and Brown.
6) I support not drafting a linebacker earlier, since we did well, and perhaps bb and pioli believe that any college linebacker is a prospect in our defense.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there is a choice. Either Beisel and Brown were signed as starters or they weren't. That Ted left us need for a backup is not the issue I'm addressing. As we see now, the backup ILB needn't get too many reps.

If Management signed Beisel and Brown as starting ILB's, they made an error or two.

If they thought that we didn't need a quality ILB or two, they made an error.

If they thought that Phifer and Ted Johnson were starting, and Beisel and Brown wold be backups, then they were downright delusional. bb and pioli are much better planners than that.

Perhaps Vrabel would move inside. Perhaps his injuries were bad enough to keep him from making the switch, even though he wasn't needed as a starter outside.
---------------------------------------------
So, to repeat, my bottom line is that it was absolutely 100% clear that we needed the best ILB out there when Bruschi went down, and perhaps two to make sure that we got at least one starter, so both could start if Vrabel couldn't move inside.

Here are the options they had at ILB:
INSIDE LINEBACKERS
Brian Allen, Panthers
Monty Beisel, Chiefs
Kendrell Bell, Steelers
Keith Burns, Buccaneers
Frank Chamberlin, Bengals
Chris Claiborne, Vikings
Andra Davis, Browns (RFA)
Don Davis, Patriots
Troy Evans, Texans
Larry Foote, Steelers (RFA)
Barry Gardner, Browns
Edgerton Hartwell, Ravens
Orlando Huff, Seahawks
Brad Kassell, Titans (RFA)
Torrance Marshall, Packers
Ron McKinnon, Cardinals
Brandon Moore, 49ers
Zeke Moreno, Chargers
Rob Morris, Colts
Jim Nelson, Colts
Antonio Pierce, Redskins
Roman Phifer, Patriots
Carlos Polk, Chargers
DaShon Polk, Texans
Wali Rainer, Lions
T.J. Slaughter, Ravens
Jeremiah Trotter, Eagles
Kenyatta Wright, Jets

Piercea and Hartwell got paid huge $. Trotter stayed in Philly. Bell was overpaid in KC. Who should the Pats haev brought in?

 

[Ring 6]

aj,

I just don't have the time to go back to your posts (and others) regarding the dozen or so inside linebackers availablefrom the beginning of free agency. We signed a special teamer and an OLB. No, I don't think they were anywhere near average of the potential starters available from the beginning of free agency and even in the draft. Our Management believed that Beisel and Brown could do the job. They had no plan B other than Chatham. They were wrong. They made a serious mistake, one that will not harm the team, given the collapse of the East, the return of Bruschi and the move of Vrabel inside.

With regard to afford, you more than anyone except Miguel, understand that we could "afford" anyone we really wanted to sign and who wanted top sign with us. But yes, there were many other team wanting ILB's. It seems that we didn't give the position a very high budget.

Its fair that you dont want to look it up. But I think it was very thin.

You characterized what he got as a special teamer and an OLB.

However, Beisel was a STARTING MLB in KC. When Brown was signed there were volumes written about how there should be no problem shifting inside.

Other than spending frivilously, I dont know how we would have done better.

Question: If 10 players are available and they all suck, if you sign the best one because you need a player was that bad management?

Check out the list someone posted. There wasnt a lot out there.

The ones that look like they would have been good pickups were priced higher than any FA we brought in. By the way, Hartwell was brought in but elected to sign elsewhere.