Patriots Won't Tag Adam

[dryheat44]

parcells is the one who swooped in and offered a 6-year, $36 million contract to a 28-year-old RB. curtis is entering year 6 of that contract. i believe he's gained about 6,700 yards as a RB under that contract.
i'd say keyshawn is too old for his contract too.

Are we comparing a kicker's impact on the game to a running back's?

 

[Bubba]

I had a feeling Viniateri was on his way out of NE when his superbowl bike was for sale on ebay.

 

[hwc]

BB/SP have been playing cutesy with adam for way too long.

Actually, I'm inclined to think the opposite: that Vinatieri has been playing "cutsey" with the Pats. The Pats have payed him hansomely, guaranteed his contracts, and used the franchise tag at a huge salary. I have to believe that they have offered him top-of-the-market contracts along the way, because the franchise tag really wasn't a great cap deal for the team.

As I look at this situation logically, the only conclusion I can draw is that Vinatieri's position in the negotiations has been to raise the bar for kicker contracts by a significant amount.

By franchising him last year, but not this year, the Pats have staked out a level they are comfortable with ($2.5 million) and a level they find unacceptable ($3 million). I don't see anything in that range as "playing cutesy" with Vinatieri.

 

[spacecrime]

BB/SP have been playing cutesy with adam for way too long.
the guy's one of the top 3 kickers in the league, fer chrissakes.
he's an unparalled clutch kicker.

AV was ranked 17th among kickers last year, I believe. (In performance, that is, not pay).

He is unparalled clutch though. Remember that 4th quarter 41 yard kick he made against the Broncos in the playoffs to bring us to within one score. Oh. Wait a minute. Never mind.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Actually, I'm inclined to think the opposite: that Vinatieri has been playing "cutsey" with the Pats. The Pats have payed him hansomely, guaranteed his contracts, and used the franchise tag at a huge salary. I have to believe that they have offered him top-of-the-market contracts along the way, because the franchise tag really wasn't a great cap deal for the team.

Vinatieri will get a mega deal from someone, if for name value only (not saying he's not a good kicker). I think we're looking at a draft choice or young guy who'll cost $1M or less, if we sign a good veteran the savings won't really be there.

 

[oldrover]

Agree with those who say Adam's been playing cutesy. His past statements have been very equivocal. I hope they sign him, but I doubt it happens with the huge payday awaiting from Dallas.

 

[fgssand]

When we find out why he left, if he leaves, I wonder what the spin will bring. Will there be finger pointing and will we be saying why didn't we spend the extra 1/2MM so we would have made that field goal, as it sails wide right, during a key playoff game or superbowl?

It is what it is and that's what it is folks

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

When we find out why he left, if he leaves, I wonder what the spin will bring. Will there be finger pointing and will we be saying why didn't we spend the extra 1/2MM so we would have made that field goal, as it sails wide right, during a key playoff game or superbowl?

It is what it is and that's what it is folks

Let's try scoring TDs

 

[oldrover]

Let's try scoring TDs

Amen to that.

 

[fgssand]

Let's try scoring TDs

Yeah I hear ya, and of course AV is not the only player to have ever made a clutch field goal (just more than most). But I just can't get rid of the thought of one crucial field goal at the most important time, the kick is up and it's no good....

 

[italian pat patriot]

Yeah I hear ya, and of course AV is not the only player to have ever made a clutch field goal (just more than most). But I just can't get rid of the thought of one crucial field goal at the most important time, the kick is up and it's no good....

fgssand: i am with you.

when that moment exactly comes (and i remembers many of them...the most beautiful was the one that tied the match against the Raiders at Foxboro)
you simply need the 'RELIABLE': AV !

 

[rookBoston]

We had the same type of discussion during the offseason where BB unloaded Bledsoe. You dont hear people second guessing that decision now. The team will be fine. Vinatieri is a great player, but not the be-all and end-all to make or break the Pats.

These things work out. Just so long as the team continues to run deep and talented, other areas of the roster will pick up the slack.

 

[ilduce06410]

oh yeah, now i remember hiis agent being suspended

IlDuce -
Where do you get this from? How have BB and Pioli been "playing cutesy with Adam for far too long?" So the guy is one of the top 3 kickers in the league. He's been paid as the BEST kicker for years now. Or did you miss that fact?

Ilduce, it was VINATIERI who sat on his arse and did nothing while his agent was suspended. It was VINATIERI who didn't agree to the deal that the Patriots put in front of him last year (which I bet was a very lucrative offer).

To say that they've been playing cutesy with Adam is so untrue. If anything AV has been playing cutesy with the pats.

the whole thing about his agent getting suspended "escaped" me. so they couldn't make him an offer, essentially until like 2 weeks ago. thanlks for that. now i understand the delay this winter.
one could say he sat on his ass, but was he waitiing to see how his agent's case worked out? was he bound by the cba to do that? i dunno.
correct my memory. but has AV been franchised for 3 years in a row now?
why has he been franchised instead of just signed? has that been by mutual agreement with the front office? don't understand, bruinz.
financially, "franchised" means he's paid the average of the top 3. has he really been franchised and then paid as the best kicker in thhe league? is that possible?
did patriots actually put a multiyear offer in front of vinatieri last year? if so, i guess he's playing cutesy with them.
this business of a player getting franchised year after year struck me as an indicator that someone was playing cute. i just assumed it was the franchise, not the player.

 

[fgssand]

We had the same type of discussion during the offseason where BB unloaded Bledsoe. You dont hear people second guessing that decision now. The team will be fine. Vinatieri is a great player, but not the be-all and end-all to make or break the Pats.

These things work out. Just so long as the team continues to run deep and talented, other areas of the roster will pick up the slack.

Unless Jason Elam or Jan Stenarud (sp?), is walking through our door - every single field goal will go from being "money" to an adventure, all this over admittedly overpaying by the relatively short amount money of 500/m or even 1mm?

Check out the rookie kickers, there are none - check out free agent kickers, nothing spectacular, but that is what we now get. Did you watch the Cowboys last year play kicker roulette? Those memories are why Parcells will pony up. Sorry guys, I think this is a mistake....

While AV may be playing hardball - he is in a position to do so, I hope we sign him.

 

[dryheat44]

the whole thing about his agent getting suspended "escaped" me. so they couldn't make him an offer, essentially until like 2 weeks ago. thanlks for that. now i understand the delay this winter.
one could say he sat on his ass, but was he waitiing to see how his agent's case worked out? was he bound by the cba to do that? i dunno.
correct my memory. but has AV been franchised for 3 years in a row now?
why has he been franchised instead of just signed?

1. Adam had the right to hire another agent.
2. Adam has not played under the franchise for three years. Three years ago the Pats put the tag on him, then agreed to a two year contract and removed it. Last year was the first he played under the tag.

 

[dryheat44]

every single field goal will go from being "money" to an adventure,

This is my problem with your argument. Adam has by no means been "automatic". He misses his share of field goals, probably about as much as every other top 20 kicker in the league. Some of them not too far out. A good deal of his success owes to the good fortune of kicking for a good offense like the Patriots, and a good defense than gives the good offense a short field.

Back after doing some research. Kickers who last year were more "money" than AV. And only those with an asterisk had a long field goal shorter than Adam (49). It shows Perception vs. Reality. Adam has some good things going for him. He's hit clutch kicks, and can kick in cold weather. He's marginally better than Longwell, Nugent and Elam last year, who kick in similar conditions. Not as good as Feely, Lindell, and Graham, who kick in similar conditions. The list:

Rackers 40/42 95%
Dawson 27/29 93%*
Nedney 26/28 93%
Vandy 23/25 92%*
Peterson 23/25 92%*
Stover 30/34 88%
Graham 28/32 88%
Kaeding 21/24 88%
Bryant 21/25 84%
Feely 35/42 83%
Lindell 29/35 83%
Mare 25/30 83%
Reed 24/29 83%
Tynes 27/33 82%
Vinatieri 20/25 80%

 

[MoLewisrocks]

We had the same type of discussion during the offseason where BB unloaded Bledsoe. You dont hear people second guessing that decision now. The team will be fine. Vinatieri is a great player, but not the be-all and end-all to make or break the Pats.

These things work out. Just so long as the team continues to run deep and talented, other areas of the roster will pick up the slack.

You've tried to make that analogy before but it just doesn't fly. Aside from Nick Cafardo and some Bledsoe loyalists who thought the kid QB with the Superbowl MVP was a fluke, most believed Brady was not only the right choice for this team but that Bledsoe would prove to be the wrong choice for Buffalo. Bledsoe was the antithesis of clutch, and Brady was already on the roster. In this case if Vinatieri goes there isn't even an identifiable replacement on the horizen.

I think RAC summed it up best from the combine.

"The likelihood of a team finding someone better is slim. As Crennel noted, in reference to both Vinatieri’s skills and what he’d command on the open market:

“He’s money.â€

The top 5 kickers average salaries last year was $2.4M. Pointing to Rackers as the next highest paid last season at $1.8M was comparing cap apples to salary oranges. Rackers took home $3.8M last season in signing bonus and salary. Over the first 2 seasons he will take home $4.6M. Obviously if he's still kicking well in 2007-2008 he'll be a bargain kicker. But as his time outdoors in the cold in Cincy shows his track record is spotty at best under less than optimum conditions. Adam on the other hand is one of only 2 kickers (Elam) in league history to score 100 points in each of his first ten seasons. Amazing since both were cold weather kickers to boot. And in Adam's case over the last 5 of those 10 seasons we tended to need an alarming number of those points.

I sure hope they get a deal worked out in the next week. Because not only will it be hard to replace what he consistently represents but I have a feeling we'll be scratching our collective heads when he signs a deal elsewhere that pays him around Kevin Faulk money. I just hope we're not also kicking ourselves in the ass come December and January.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This is my problem with your argument. Adam has by no means been "automatic". He misses his share of field goals, probably about as much as every other top 20 kicker in the league. Some of them not too far out. A good deal of his success owes to the good fortune of kicking for a good offense like the Patriots, and a good defense than gives the good offense a short field.

Back after doing some research. Kickers who last year were more "money" than AV. And only those with an asterisk had a long field goal shorter than Adam (49). It shows Perception vs. Reality. Adam has some good things going for him. He's hit clutch kicks, and can kick in cold weather. He's marginally better than Longwell, Nugent and Elam last year, who kick in similar conditions. Not as good as Feely, Lindell, and Graham, who kick in similar conditions. The list:

Rackers 40/42 95%
Dawson 27/29 93%*
Nedney 26/28 93%
Vandy 23/25 92%*
Peterson 23/25 92%*
Stover 30/34 88%
Graham 28/32 88%
Kaeding 21/24 88%
Bryant 21/25 84%
Feely 35/42 83%
Lindell 29/35 83%
Mare 25/30 83%
Reed 24/29 83%
Tynes 27/33 82%
Vinatieri 20/25 80%

When you doing that research you might want to consider their recent track records. Graham looks pretty good now in Cincy after bombing in Buffalo and Carolina. He got a shot at Rackers job when Cincy let him go. Lindell struggled in Seattle and almost didn't last his first season in Buffalo. Feeley is apparently that anomoly who doesn't kick well indoors, or at least Atlanta thought so. So far in 1 season he's looked very good outdoors for the Giants.

While you don't pay for past performance per se, track record for consistency is pretty crucial when making decisions about your FG kicker. These guys are up and down from one season to the next, so the guys who exhibit the most consistency over time (not to mention in difficult conditions and under pressure) have a value all their own. Adam had a down season % wise in 2003, although he made the kicks that mattered. In 2004 he rebounded and was dominant. And again everything he's done he's done here playing for a team that actually frequently required clutch kicking - something that hasn't been much of an issue for the Giants, Bills and Bengals over the last 5 seasons.

Glancing at your somewhat myopic FG % list guys like Vandy and Peterson look great, until you realize they kick FG only and primarily indoors while they can't even handle kicking off. Stats are great providing you take the time to analyze them in some context. That's also perception vs. reality. As is the fact only a couple of kickers you list are FA and none of those are a better fit for this franchise than Adam. So I guess if we don't get him re-signed, in my perception that will be an unfortunate reality.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

This is my problem with your argument. Adam has by no means been "automatic". He misses his share of field goals, probably about as much as every other top 20 kicker in the league.

I love Adam but he tends to be a little overrated as your stats suggest. He's made some amazing kicks but he's also missed some like two in SB 38. There are few, if any, kickers I would prefer to have but he's not Mr. Perfect like some seem to think he is. Admittedly, playing in the AFCE is a tough place for a kicker.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

When you doing that research you might want to consider their recent track records.

What you say is true but Adam is also going to be 34 before the end of next season. I know kickers can last a long time but do you want to commit $3M a year until he's 37 or 38 ?