Patriots offense has become far too scheme heavy

[Ring 6]

My position, as I've stated already, is that winning the SB gives a team the title of *Champion*, but that the title of "best" is far more complex. Obviously winning a championship is one major factor in determining the "best". The goal of each team is to win the championship, not necessarily to lay claim to some subjective title of "best". They don't care about who is "best". They do care about being a champion.

Now, though, again, we see that you are making an absolutist claim with no exceptions. The best is the champion, and the champion is the best. So you should have no problem addressing my 3-13 champion thought experiment. I look forward to your answer there.

So you will type 50 posts pretending not to acknowlege my clear cut, concise and complete definition of best, and try to tell me I am wrong, but you can come up with nothing better than best is 'complex'?
How can you reject a definition without having one of your own?

 

[Ring 6]

On the bright side a lame thread was successfully hijacked

 

[ivanvamp]

This isnt a philosophy course.

Sure it is. We're talking about philosophy of football here.

I have explained my position clearly and in great detail.
Coming up with an example that is stupid and unrealistic is ridiculous and you know that.

Actually it isn't ridiculous. I could use an example that is less unrealistic if you like. Like the 2007 Patriots vs. the 2007 Giants. By any measure, the 2007 Patriots were better than the 2007 Giants. The Giants won the Super Bowl largely on (1) injuries to key Patriots' players, (2) unfortunate refereeing (no holding call on the Tyree play), (3) ridiculous luck (the Tyree play, the fumbles all going to the Giants), etc. Not exclusively on these three things, but they were all HUGE factors in the game. Yet you will argue that the 2007 Giants were better simply because they won the Super Bowl game.

To which I'd say, ok, that's fine. Let's use an example slightly more "ridiculous" than this one. And you'd still say the SB champion is the "best". And I'd use a slightly more "ridiculous" example, and so on, to test how far you'd go. That's how these things work. Instead of doing that, I went straight to the extreme example to just get the test out of the way.

It is an absolute claim, because there is a way that is agreed upon to determine the best team.
You seem to feel best should be used to identify a team that meets some other criteria than achieving its goal. I disagree.

Obviously we disagree.

If I work at a company that sells widgets, and we are required to sell as many widgets as we can, if I sell the most widget, I am the best salesman.
You can argue about the definition of what qualities the best salesman has, and what you would expect him to do, but it is pointless, because you have a result.

Like my temperature example, this one is irrelevant to our discussion. (see, two can play that game, Andy)

I would argue that your subjective criteria of best must be flawed because the team your criteria calls best didn't achieve its only real goal.

As you know, the NFL really has two separate components. The long endurance test known as the regular season is when teams ply their trade for 17 grueling weeks, in order to secure the best possible position for the second component. 16 games over 17 weeks is a far greater sample and generally, the larger the sample, the better the data will represent reality.

The second component is a knockout tournament, where any random bounce of a ball can determine an outcome. Weird things happen. As is the case in the regular season, worse teams actually can beat better teams, but in the regular season it doesn't matter as much because there are more weeks to keep playing. But if you get unlucky or have one bad game or if a ref makes a bad call and you get upset in the knockout tournament, your season is over.

I', just going to stop responding if you can get by childish harping on this silly example. Seriously, you are better than this lame trolling.

It's not trolling. You're staking out a position and I'm questioning you about it. I'm probing and testing to see how far you'll take that position. That's not trolling. Unless you consider anyone that disagrees with you to be trolling, and I sure hope you don't see things that way.

 

[ivanvamp]

So you will type 50 posts pretending not to acknowlege my clear cut, concise and complete definition of best, and try to tell me I am wrong, but you can come up with nothing better than best is 'complex'?
How can you reject a definition without having one of your own?

?? I've acknowledged your definition. I hear what you're saying. In fact, in the very first post I offered in this conversation I said this:

I understand what you're saying, and on one level this seems like it should be right. But we all know that in a one-and-done playoff format, where a random bounce of an oblong football can change the outcome, it's too simplistic to say that the team that wins the Super Bowl is automatically better than a team that doesn't.

So yes, I acknowledged your definition, and even acknowledge that there's something positive about it. But I think it's too simplistic. I think that the SB winner determines the champion, but not necessarily the best team. I think they can be different things. The goal of each NFL team is to win the championship, not to win the subjective title of "best" team.

If you define pornography as "a picture of a naked person", that is an objective, easily measurable definition. But I think it's more complex than that. And I don't necessarily have to have a definition of my own in order to say that I think your definition here would be a little too simplistic.

 

[ivanvamp]

On the bright side a lame thread was successfully hijacked

Haha true.

 

[mikiemo83]

And having someone like a Boldin to use in his place is the simple answer.

Who in the draft is most like Boldin?

from Reiss
" If you like Anquan Boldin … Keenan Allen could be your WR. California receiver Keenan Allen (6-3, 210) drew raves from Mayock, who made the point that if teams are comfortable with Allen’s speed, he could be viewed as an Anquan Boldin-type. But if teams get hung up on speed questions with Allen, that could lead him to slide a bit. Mayock seems to think Allen is a nice fit in the 20-30 range of the first round, citing his size, toughness and ability to get off press coverage, among other things. The Patriots pick at No. 29 and if they inject some size and youth at receiver, Allen could be a player on their radar if he slides (which could happen if he doesn’t run sub-4.5 in the 40 at the combine)."

 

[tonyto3690]

What a silly notion. Of course championship teams rely on luck. From David Patten's unconsciousness moment, to an opposing kicker booting the ball out of bounds and giving the Patriots the ball at the 40, to David Tyree getting the ball up against his helmet at just the right angle to keep it from sliding off when he got drilled, the Patriots have been on both sides of the 'luck' coin.

Are you sure you've actually seen a football game?

DOnt be naive.

Championship teams overcome their own mistakes. The past few years we've seen them make a mistake and completely fall apart and not recover. In the dynasty years we had about 10-15 guys who were all considered mentall and physically tough and each could rebound. Nowadays we have Brady wilfork and mayo.

And again, the goal is to make a team good enough so that it doesn't need every lucky bounce to win. Your idiotic notion that luck is the biggest dictator of the outcomes of games and thus we shouldn't try to make the team better is completely absurd.

The 2010 game? We had two or three bad plays that cost is the game
The 2011 Super Bowl? A Brady safety and Brady interception were the two truly bad plays the entire game and we still lost
The 2012 ravens game? Ridley fumble and a handful of blown third and short conversions missed cost us the game.

You are out of your mind stupid if you think this past ears team was anywhere near on par with the 03 and 04 and even 07 rosters. And the 2011 abomination was a miracle we made the playoffs on sheer talent.

Let's not be stupid and act like the patriots in 01-04 received every lucky bounce and 07-12 has been every unlucky bounce. The dynasty patriots overcame mistakes. Recent year patriots are young and haven't reached that yet.