Pasquarelli on Vinatieri

[shmessy]

But don't players say something similar all the time when they sign with the Pats ... "I really wanted to go to a place where I felt I had a good shot at a ring, and this organization ..."

Of course, in the Patriots' place, such statements are warranted, while in the Colts' ... but it's not that outrageous a statement. The Colts have been closer than anyone who hasn't won one recently. Personally, I think they took a big step back this winter and I'll be surprised if they win a playoff game this year, but Adam's entitled to his opinion.

Welcome aboard Platts (I would guess you're from Plattsburg, NY?).

I agree with your take on AV. I was sad to see him go, but then I ate a wonderful lunch and enjoyed a sunny day. I am grateful for the great kicks he made when here and wish the guy the best (except on the field).

His leaving doesn't compare with my dog dying or anything. The personality cult of fandom was so high in NE for AV that some folks treat it very personally.

I think he did make a mistake in losing a lifetime of regional endorsements, but he calculated what was best for his playing career and his family who are midwesterners. He doesn't owe it to the NE fans to sacrifice his family life because he's on some posters in fans homes.

 

[PlattsFan]

Welcome aboard Platts (I would guess you're from Plattsburg, NY?)

Thanks ... I'm currently living in Plattsburgh, but I'm not really from here, only lived here for a couple years. It just seemed an obvious screen name for a Pats fan in Plattsburgh

 

[Amnorix]

Go to Buffalo, mention the name Scott Norwood.

Mr. Norwood didn't lose that game single-handedly any more than Bill Buckner lost the RS the '86 Series.

Of course, fans want to pin the blame on ONE thing or one person, so everyone obsesses over just a few of the things that led to defeat.

 

[Pats726]

First post here, and I probably shouldn't make it, um, contrary, but ...

Why the hate for Vinatieri? He performed admirably in NE, did all you could ask for a kicker, and then left for more money and to go to a place where he might not miss an under-40 yd kick ever.

Now he's on a new team, so he speaks well of his new team. You expected different? "I'm sure we'll choke in the playoffs again. Oh, and my old team's poised for a run of 3 more Super Bowls. But whooey, you should see my new ride!" What else could he say?

Good luck Adam; you did well, got more fame than you deserved as a kicker, and I hope the pangs of regret aren't too bad when you sit and watch your old team win the Super Bowl with a rookie kicker ...

Actually this is a GREAT post!! Welcome to the Forum. I understand the hate in one sense...
he left in NOT AT ALL the best manner, more in the sense of a slap in the face, especially going to a rival team. THAT I understand, but he did perform in NE in totally the way I would want a kicker to be. For what he did here, a standing ovation is what is needed when he returns to Gillette. JUST that first time..and then the boos can eain down on him. You are right, he really can't say anything all that different, given his new team. I understand what he has done for the Patriots, but I also see how and what he did in leaving.
A standing ovation is needed, but just for that one last time. Great thoughts though; it is a good question.

 

[Amnorix]

You have it wrong. Adam WANTED to leave.

And why is that a crime. Pats were clearly not going to do better financially than Indy was. Indy also had a dome, which meant better FG% and distance, and perhaps adding longevity, all of which increases his HOF chances.

And they're not exactly the Cardinals, regardless of what you think about their chances of winning it all.

Besides, it's human nature to feel that the grass may be greener, especially if you feel you're worth more than what your current employer is offering. Why not turn your back and move on? He didn't do a damn thing "wrong", and neither did the Patriots.

 

[spacecrime]

Not his responsibility. I'm all for the Patriots' management style, but they had a lot of time to sign him, and chose not to make the offer to seal the deal like the Colts did.

This comes from not reading the AV interviews. You act like the Pats had a choice in this. AV said he wanted to play in a dome. That was his priority. He said he no longer wanted to play in FOxboro. The Pats cannot just sign a player. The player has to sign, also. And he didn't want to. Why is it so hard to understand that when a player chooses to leave, and it is his determined choice, it is out of the hands of the team he is leaving?

Had he wanted to stay, all he had to do is say, "The COlts ofered me 200K more than you. Match their offer and I will stay." You don't think the Pats would up their offer 200K?

But of course he didn't accept the Pats offer, and didn't let them match the Colts offer.

That is his right. Of course. If he doesn't want to play for the Pats, he doesn't have to. But it will not get me to stand up and cheer for him because he left that way. He didn't want to be here. Good. Let him go. I for one will not pine away for someone who didn't want to play for my favorite team.

But we can't praise the Patriots for their no-nonsense, unsentimental fiscal management without accepting that the players also have the right to do what they feel is right without alerting the Patriots.

He has the right to leave without letting the Pats match. No one is denying his right. We are merely saying that we don't like this, and don't like him because he did this. He has a right to do a lot of things. But if he does things we don't like, we have an equal right, as fans, not to like the fact that he did it.

He has a right to talk about how great the Colts are and how no team is closer to winning a SB than they are. Of course he does. He isnt a Pat anymore. He is one of the Colts now, same as Manning.

Why is it so important to you that some of us dislike what he did?

 

[upstater1]

And why is that a crime. Pats were clearly not going to do better financially than Indy was. Indy also had a dome, which meant better FG% and distance, and perhaps adding longevity, all of which increases his HOF chances.

And they're not exactly the Cardinals, regardless of what you think about their chances of winning it all.

Besides, it's human nature to feel that the grass may be greener, especially if you feel you're worth more than what your current employer is offering. Why not turn your back and move on? He didn't do a damn thing "wrong", and neither did the Patriots.

I just disagree with your premise that he would have done financially worse in New England than in Indy.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I wasn't saying he's BAD for wanting to leave. I'm saying that it wasn't an issue of the Patriots being cheapskatea. I looked at his Indy contract. It looks like the Patriots offered him just a little bit less than Indy (in the low 100,000s). Given the contract parameters, his legend in NE, I can only conclude one thing: he wanted to leave. When I wrote that I was responding to someone who said he left because of the money. I don't believe that.

 

[upstater1]

But don't players say something similar all the time when they sign with the Pats ... "I really wanted to go to a place where I felt I had a good shot at a ring, and this organization ..."

I think there's a big difference from saying you have a shot at the ring (i.e. you're one team among several or many, or whatever) and saying that your team is the closest to winning a Super Bowl (which naturally implies that they have better ingredients than your previous team). That's what I'm objecting to. It simply seems the Colts believe they have the most talent and that only luck has kept them out. A Patriot would never utter such a statement (at least, no Patriot so far has said anything remotely like this). The Colts have often uttered statements like this in the past.

I'd ask Vinatieri, why in the world do you think the Colts are closer now than all the teams they have lost to over the years? Is it the addition of Addai?

Of course, in the Patriots' place, such statements are warranted, while in the Colts' ... but it's not that outrageous a statement. The Colts have been closer than anyone who hasn't won one recently. Personally, I think they took a big step back this winter and I'll be surprised if they win a playoff game this year, but Adam's entitled to his opinion.

Personally, I think the Titans were closer, the Panthers and Eagles, than the Colts were.

And I agree that Adam is entitled to his opinion. I just think it's an arrogant and presumptuous opinion that wouldn't be uttered by a member of the current New England Patriots. But it sounds like something a Colt would say.

 

[PlattsFan]

Why is it so important to you that some of us dislike what he did?

It's not all that important to me, but then if that were the barrier to posting on a sports message board, then most boards would dry up and go away ... none of it is really that important.

On this, I just think that there's no reason to get all upset at Vinatieri for his choice. I don't *like* that he signed elsewhere; he's a good kicker, and I like his attitude. But the Patriots cut guys all the time that want to stay, sometimes even guys I like, and if we respect Pioli's and Belichick's right to do that and don't make it personal with them, I don't see why we should make it personal toward a player. This happens across sports; Sox fans get all mad at Pedro and call him greedy, but don't get mad at the Sox management for running Derek Lowe out of town (I agreed with the Sox on both decisions, btw). I always try to defend players in these situations to balance it out.

It's a business, but a business putting out a product I enjoy watching. I enjoyed Vinatieri's contribution to the Patriots. He brought me some joy with his kicks and his attitude and his better-than-a-kicker tackling. I'm not happy that I won't see that anymore, but I don't think he deserves any condemnation from me for his personal choices. I don't own him, and he doesn't owe me anything. And, because I respect what he did for me (while getting well-paid to do it, of course), I'm willing to take a few minutes defending him on a message board.

I don't pine for folks that leave the teams I root for, and I don't remain all that much of a fan of them (I liked Damien Woody, but I couldn't tell you the first thing about what he's doing now). But I don't bother to dislike them for their choices, either. They have their own lives and families. And I'm not sure Vinatieri's really worth the money he got, anyway.

It simply seems the Colts believe they have the most talent and that only luck has kept them out. A Patriot would never utter such a statement (at least, no Patriot so far has said anything remotely like this). The Colts have often uttered statements like this in the past

I think you do have a point there ... the Colts are the biggest bunch of whiners when it comes to why they haven't won. The mewling and blubbering coming from them after the Pats manhandled them 20-3 was embarrassing to hear. I don't like Manning at all, and never could stand Vandershank (remember when he made the "money" gesture to the Pats bench just before he missed a FG at the end of that Thurs. night game? Classic).

So, while I don't think Adam's statement is really that bad, I do see where you're coming from there ... it does sort of dovetail in with the general Colts attitude that they are so good and only cheating and bad fate have kept them from their rightful place as champions.

I won't dislike Adam, but I still will enjoy watching the Manning Face come out around playoff time.

 

[14thDragon]

Mr. Norwood didn't lose that game single-handedly any more than Bill Buckner lost the RS the '86 Series.

Of course, fans want to pin the blame on ONE thing or one person, so everyone obsesses over just a few of the things that led to defeat.

I didn't say he lost the game. But I was responding to the accusation that Patriot fans are more obbesive over a kicker then anyone else.

We are not special in that regard, pleanty of fans obsess just as much.

 

[14thDragon]

On this, I just think that there's no reason to get all upset at Vinatieri for his choice. I don't *like* that he signed elsewhere; he's a good kicker, and I like his attitude. But the Patriots cut guys all the time that want to stay, sometimes even guys I like, and if we respect Pioli's and Belichick's right to do that and don't make it personal with them, I don't see why we should make it personal toward a player. This happens across sports; Sox fans get all mad at Pedro and call him greedy, but don't get mad at the Sox management for running Derek Lowe out of town (I agreed with the Sox on both decisions, btw). I always try to defend players in these situations to balance it out.

Yeah except you do not see a lot of hate for Willie Mac, or Givens, Andruzi, Ashworth, Woody, etc.

Each one of them got a monster deal with a ton more cash then they would have gotten here. So we say, thanks for the memories, enjoy the gold plated rims. We pretty much give them the leway to go and make all the cash they can. We do not get upset at them saying, "My focus is to win a champoinship with my new team" or "I am excited about the direction this team is going." Those are standard phrases and we understand what they mean.

Adam took off for a couple hundred grand, went to a hated opponent and did so with a smile. Now is saying he is closer to getting back to the promised land. This kind of exit has a tendency to burn some bridges.

 

[PlattsFan]

Adam took off for a couple hundred grand, went to a hated opponent and did so with a smile. Now is saying he is closer to getting back to the promised land. This kind of exit has a tendency to burn some bridges.

Fair enough, I guess. Vinatieri was an icon of sorts, and those types of guys are hard to lose sometimes. To me, as long as they don't trash my home region or team on their way out, I can't begrudge them being happy someplace else.

But, of course, it's not like I can convince anyone not to be mad, or anyone can convince me to be ...

I was just surprised by the level of vitriol headed Adam's way, that's all.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I want to thank Adam for the memories, and wish him the best, except against us.
If BB was totally into Adam, BB had many opportunities to keep him. BB could have used the franchise tag, BB had practically two whole years of negotiation time, and then BB had another shot in the first weeks of the FA period.
However the bottom line is BB did what he thought was best for the organization and in BB I trust. So I'm over it and moving forward. While neither Goatnutski or Psychomatica makes me feel good about the kicking game, neither makes me feel sick, like when Clements takes the mound.

 

[bostonbuzz]

Belichick definitely gave AV what he wanted. By NOT franchising him again he gave Adam the freedom to test the waters, to stay (doubtful) or go (more likely). Think Belichick would have handled things that way if he felt AV wasn't replacable, if he didn't feel it was quite possible we've seen the best of AV, and that maybe just maybe he had reached the point of diminishing returns? I don't. I feel the sports analysts have it wrong thinking Belichick wasn't half expecting to see AV move on once the franchise tag was lost.

AV must have felt some resentment towards the Patriots the last few years for slapping the franchise tag on him rather than working to sign him to a long term contract. Maybe this year it finally came down to age, possible nagging injuries, 4/8 beyond the 40, and short kick-offs that were the determining factors in the loss in interest in one of the most clutch kickers in league history.

 

[Amnorix]

I just disagree with your premise that he would have done financially worse in New England than in Indy.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I wasn't saying he's BAD for wanting to leave. I'm saying that it wasn't an issue of the Patriots being cheapskatea. I looked at his Indy contract. It looks like the Patriots offered him just a little bit less than Indy (in the low 100,000s). Given the contract parameters, his legend in NE, I can only conclude one thing: he wanted to leave. When I wrote that I was responding to someone who said he left because of the money. I don't believe that.

Then we're definitely miscommunicating, because I agree -- he left for more than jsut the money. I'm sure the indoor stadium made an impression to say the least.

 

[Amnorix]

I didn't say he lost the game. But I was responding to the accusation that Patriot fans are more obbesive over a kicker then anyone else.

We are not special in that regard, pleanty of fans obsess just as much.

Ok, I agree that the Bills probably obsess over Norwood as much or more -- but I honestly think no city and its fans have ever obsessed as much over losing a kicker to free agency.

 

[shmessy]

Perhaps he left for the same reasons why 300,000 other people left Massachusetts in the past 6 years (one of only 2 states in the union to lose population during this time).

Bad weather, bad attitude, overpriced housing, WEEI mentality, Borges, mobbed-up unions ....who needs all that toxicity?

Maybe Massachusetts is the Mexico of states. Time to clean up the Commonwealth's act before the other parts of the country finish the job buying up all it's companies and attracting its capital.

Maybe the fault, dear Brutus, lies not with AV, but with the fact that Massachusetts ain't the Garden of Eden.

 

[upstater1]

So, while I don't think Adam's statement is really that bad, I do see where you're coming from there ... it does sort of dovetail in with the general Colts attitude that they are so good and only cheating and bad fate have kept them from their rightful place as champions.

I won't dislike Adam, but I still will enjoy watching the Manning Face come out around playoff time.

I was one of the ones who never criticized Vinatieri for leaving, nor for jumping on the money without giving the Patriots a chance. I'm in a field where this happens a lot. It has to happen this way for many reasons.

But that quote was very Colt-like, and that's why I joined in with the AntiAdams today.

 

[upstater1]

Perhaps he left for the same reasons why 300,000 other people left Massachusetts in the past 6 years (one of only 2 states in the union to lose population during this time).

Bad weather, bad attitude, overpriced housing, WEEI mentality, Borges, mobbed-up unions ....who needs all that toxicity?

Maybe Massachusetts is the Mexico of states. Time to clean up the Commonwealth's act before the other parts of the country finish the job buying up all it's companies and attracting its capital.

Maybe the fault, dear Brutus, lies not with AV, but with the fact that Massachusetts ain't the Garden of Eden.

Do you really believe this? He left because of Mass?

Trust me, Mass kicks the living hell out of Indiana. I've lived in Boston and in the Midwest. The Midwest is, um, different.

There's a reason that property values are sky high in Massachusetts, and it's not because it's a sucky place to live. If that were true, the property values wouldn't be so high.

 

[shmessy]

Do you really believe this? He left because of Mass?

Trust me, Mass kicks the living hell out of Indiana. I've lived in Boston and in the Midwest. The Midwest is, um, different.

There's a reason that property values are sky high in Massachusetts, and it's not because it's a sucky place to live. If that were true, the property values wouldn't be so high.

I love much of what is Massachusetts. Boston is still my favorite city in the world. However, there are some elements that do work against it (hello James Bulger, Tommy Finneran, that Cashman guy who chased the filmmakers away with his union extortions, the media, etc.). There is always a tug of war between the progressive side of Mass. and the flat-out extortion junk.

There are many reasons why it is one of 2 states that have lost population in the past 6 years. Nobody can change the weather, but people shouldn't be shocked that the rest of the world would want to subject themselves to the pervasive negative and toxic mentality. Good for Adam if he wanted to escape that for himself, his wife and his children. Also, he is from South Dakota, and Indiana is closer to home for him.