Our Secondary

[supafly]

Remember at the start of the 2017 season when we though the Pats had one of the best secondaries in the league? That was great.

I remember people here being genuinely pissed off because ESPN had our secondary ranked 5th or something in the summer. Of course, those were likely some of the same people who were spouting off about 19-0 pipe dreams and who were more concerned about clown noses than whether or not the team would be prepared in week one.

I think we found out fairly quickly that the secondary had issues and even when they were “fixed” it was often against mediocre to poor level teams. Looking at the 8 games (5-3 record) versus teams that finished with a winning record and who don’t call themselves the Buffalo Bills (just can’t take their offense seriously, and they barely make the cut with a 9-7 record, anyway), our defense gave up an average of over 25 PPG.

The passing defense was ranked 30th overall, 20th in yards per play, 25th in turnovers, and 24th in first downs, and again—11/19 games came against teams that weren’t really worth a damn, and in the other 8 versus worthy opponents, they lost 3 and got the gift from Haley and Roethlisberger to avoid going .500 in those 8 games. Most importantly, the season was bookended around the worst 2 defensive performances in the 18 year Belichick era where they gave up 42 and 41. It is obvious that our secondary needs to be addressed, even if Gilmore looked good and J Jones looked somewhat promising. I’d like to see picks at both CB and S.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

We have a spot for a 211 lb linebacker?

There's not a spot on defense for him at all if you ask me, he is a special teams player only. When he practices defense in camp, he should only be practicing the big nickel LB role. I do not anticipate him making a difference on defense, unless it's a negative.

 

[maineman209]

Finding special teams players seems like the easiest thing in the world for us. So Richards isn't vital imo. I can already see from his time on defense that he isn't the greatest tackler and I don't recall him doing anything worthwhile on the few returns that actually happen to assume he is on King's, Ebner, Jones, Slater, Bolden etc level. He is addition by subtraction.

Why would I throw in the towel on Cyrus? Deja vu with past corners like Wheatley and Wilhite are my primary reasons. I could obviously be wrong but most corners that suck don't really seem to turn it around. I'd rather take my chances in finding another udfa like we did in Butler and J. Jones. I'm not rooting for guys to fail but highly drafted guys do bust and the quicker we move on the better. Right now, Cyrus is Aaron Dobson. 2nd round guy that doesn't drop passes in college routinely drops or double caught everything thrown his way in the NFL. Cyrus 2nd round pick who was the best punt returner in the nation was a fumble waiting to happen for us.

LOL!

Clearly you don't watch any ST play beyond what the network broadcasts show you.

Wheatley and Wilhite are your comps for Cy Jones? Not even close to similar situations.

As a rookie in 2016, Cy Jones played 1/3 fewer snaps at CB than Bademosi did in 2017, but he sucks at corner based on that? Jon Jones played half as many snaps as Cy Jones in 2016, and most folks probably thought he'd be another STO guy based on that. But he ended up playing the 3rd-most snaps at CB this season and looked pretty damn good doing it.

"Cy Jones is Aaron Dobson?" Seriously?

 

[maineman209]

The hope here is that Glitch will be playing STO Somewhere Else once the Pats have a more capable Safety - or 2 - on the roster...
...and Jonathan Jones is not stout enough to play the roles that Ryan & Butler played here. He is what he is, a possible dime/slot CB (#3 for his ceiling) & #2 Gunner on STs.

I'm not sure I get what you mean about Jones being "not stout enough" to play Ryan's or Butler's roles. If you mean "durable", Jones has been an iron man, injury-wise, for the number of combined snaps he's played over his two seasons, and he's been highly productive at both ST and CB - as productive as Logan Ryan was at CB in his second season, while playing even fewer D-snaps than Ryan.

And twice this past season, in his weekly film breakdowns, BB singled out Jones for high praise of his near-perfect trail technique on a couple-three of Jones' 8 PBUs while playing a boundary corner role. I believe BB's words were, "that's exactly how we try to teach it."

 

[maineman209]

Getting rid of Roberts, Richards and Lee will be a huge part in fixing our D. Hopefully we can resign Solder and focus the first few picks of the draft on defense.....I don't care if it's cb, lb, dt or de, all could use upgrades.

I don't understand why anyone would want to summarily "get rid of" Eric Lee (6032/260).

In his first six games ever playing defense in the NFL, he played 281 snaps, shifting between DE and OLB as necessary, and produced 19 total tackles, 3.5 sacks, 2 PBUs, a pick and a safety. In six games. At age 23.

Now, sure, he'd spent a season and a half on the Houston and Buffalo practice squads as a UDFA DE prior to being "poached" by the Pats. But, if he'd been a rookie 2nd-round draft pick by the Pats and put up those kinds of numbers in his first six games, folks would probably be wondering how the Pats would ever be able to afford to keep the guy after his rookie contract runs out.

 

[luuked]

Finding special teams players seems like the easiest thing in the world for us. So Richards isn't vital imo. I can already see from his time on defense that he isn't the greatest tackler and I don't recall him doing anything worthwhile on the few returns that actually happen to assume he is on King's, Ebner, Jones, Slater, Bolden etc level. He is addition by subtraction.

That fact that it didnt happen in 2 years now just proves you are wrong and are underestimating the requirements that BB has for players to be a core ST.

Why would I throw in the towel on Cyrus? Deja vu with past corners like Wheatley and Wilhite are my primary reasons. I could obviously be wrong but most corners that suck don't really seem to turn it around. I'd rather take my chances in finding another udfa like we did in Butler and J. Jones. I'm not rooting for guys to fail but highly drafted guys do bust and the quicker we move on the better. Right now, Cyrus is Aaron Dobson. 2nd round guy that doesn't drop passes in college routinely drops or double caught everything thrown his way in the NFL. Cyrus 2nd round pick who was the best punt returner in the nation was a fumble waiting to happen for us.

Except Cyrus didnt suck as a corner. The only reason for the hate of him are his mishaps as a returner in his rookie year. In fact he would have been pretty helpful as a slot corner in the SB where he looked fine in the limited snaps he got last year.

 

[luuked]

I don't understand why anyone would want to summarily "get rid of" Eric Lee (6032/260).

In his first six games ever playing defense in the NFL, he played 281 snaps, shifting between DE and OLB as necessary, and produced 19 total tackles, 3.5 sacks, 2 PBUs, a pick and a safety. In six games. At age 23.

Now, sure, he'd spent a season and a half on the Houston and Buffalo practice squads as a UDFA DE prior to being "poached" by the Pats. But, if he'd been a rookie 2nd-round draft pick by the Pats and put up those kinds of numbers in his first six games, folks would probably be wondering how the Pats would ever be able to afford to keep the guy after his rookie contract runs out.

I dont get the entire getting rid of terminology in February. The roster size will be 90+ what exactly is the reason to cut some players now only to go out and find UDFAs -- who have never played a snap of pro football -- or bargain FAs to fill those spots ?

Unless there are big bonus payments due soon (Hello Branch or Marty) there is no reason to do anything right now.

 

[IllegalContact]

You're depending on rookies as serious contributors, unless there are no injuries. Even then, they will be on the field on 3rd and very long.

Sure....if they’re high draft picks

I don’t believe in sitting them just because they’re rookies.....McCourty and Chung contributed as rookies

 

[ashley]

Why Lee I think he could make a leap with another training camp

A few people have Pm'd me and asked why Lee, what do I have against him?

Nothing really, I just would like to see an upgrade at that position. Roberts and Richards should be off the team but if people want to give Lee more time, I can live with that.

 

[mgteich]

I agree. IMHO, we should have 9 DL's, including a ST, so 8 position players). I start with following, with Branch gone. I keep Rivers among the LB's. Sure, there should be upgrades. However, there is little reason to cut anyone but Branch (even there, we are simply NOT picking up his option).

WHERE WE START
DT: Guy, Valentine, Brown, Francois/draftee
DE: Flowers, Wise, Butler, Lee/Grissom

MLB: Hightower, Van Noy, Roberts
OLB: Rivers, McClellan, Grigsby/Langi
========
HMM
Let's try really hard to sign Marquise Flowers and Harrison! Then, we can look at free agents, draftees, and see the camp competition.

I understand that DE's often function as OLB's. However, this group of OLB's may be among the worst in the NFL. And , yes it IS a talent issue. Harrison and Flowers would get major reps again, unless there are additions, or if Rivers and/or Langi come back great from injury.

I don't understand why anyone would want to summarily "get rid of" Eric Lee (6032/260).

In his first six games ever playing defense in the NFL, he played 281 snaps, shifting between DE and OLB as necessary, and produced 19 total tackles, 3.5 sacks, 2 PBUs, a pick and a safety. In six games. At age 23.

Now, sure, he'd spent a season and a half on the Houston and Buffalo practice squads as a UDFA DE prior to being "poached" by the Pats. But, if he'd been a rookie 2nd-round draft pick by the Pats and put up those kinds of numbers in his first six games, folks would probably be wondering how the Pats would ever be able to afford to keep the guy after his rookie contract runs out.

 

[captain stone]

Cross off McClellin from the above list too, because he should be released the Nanosecond that it is most economically feasible to do so.

 

[maineman209]

Cross off McClellin from the above list too, because he should be released the Nanosecond that it is most economically feasible to do so.

Already a future CTE case, I'm guessing he retires.

 

[supafly]

A few people have Pm'd me and asked why Lee, what do I have against him?

I’ve had PM conversations with like, 10 people in the 10 years that I’ve been here, and you receive multiple inquiries all at once regarding Eric Lee? That’s hilarious.

In terms of you wanting to see an upgrade—I think that will sort itself out with additional talent and depth in training camp. If Lee actually beats out enough players to win a spot, more power to him. Either way, I think you’ll feel better about the situation in about 6 months from now.

 

[Uptown]

Redskins Attempting To Trade S Su'a Cravens | NFLTradeRumors.co

Go get em’ Trader Bill.

 

[maineman209]

Redskins Attempting To Trade S Su'a Cravens | NFLTradeRumors.co

Go get em’ Trader Bill.

If the Pats are really interested, I could see them offering their 2019 7th-rounder - on the condition that Cravens plays 60% of the D-snaps in 2018. Otherwise, they could wait until he's waived and try to claim him (or see if he goes unclaimed and have him in for an interview/workout).

Cravens' very public history would make me reluctant to invest much at this point.

 

[DarrylS]

If the Pats are really interested, I could see them offering their 2019 7th-rounder - on the condition that Cravens plays 60% of the D-snaps in 2018. Otherwise, they could wait until he's waived and try to claim him (or see if he goes unclaimed and have him in for an interview/workout).

Cravens' very public history would make me reluctant to invest much at this point.

If Cravens were a possibility I assume his current contract is valid, and that would be a cap hit of about 1.4 million next year, which is the last year of his rookie contract.. not a huge financial gamble.

Not sure the Pats would want a one year rental, particularly as dbackfield players have somewhat of a difficult time learning this system quickly..

 

[maineman209]

If Cravens were a possibility I assume his current contract is valid, and that would be a cap hit of about 1.4 million next year, which is the last year of his rookie contract.. not a huge financial gamble.

Not sure the Pats would want a one year rental, particularly as dbackfield players have somewhat of a difficult time learning this system quickly..

According to OverTheCap, 2018 would be only the 3rd year of his original 4-year rookie deal as a 2nd-round pick. However, given his "left squad" status for 2017, the 2nd year of his contract seems to have tolled. While OTC doesn't spell this out, they have his 2018 salary listed the same as his 2017 (2nd-year) salary ... only $651k (which is all the Pats would be on the hook for) ... and have his rookie contract now running for five years, through 2020.

That actually makes trading for him a bit more attractive since, if he works out, they'd have him for three years at a total cost of $2.56M, about $853k per year, none of it guaranteed.

I can also understand the attraction from a playing perspective. At ~6'1"/~225, he's a fairly large safety, and he had good (but not entirely exceptional) testing numbers at the Combine.

He seemed to be pretty successful in a sort of hybrid SS/LB role in his three seasons at USC, and while playing a similar role in his often-injury-interrupted rookie season with the Skins in 2016 ... hip, then concussion, then elbow. He also voluntarily underwent a "knee cleanout" during 2017 Camp, just before he bailed.

The fact that he just underwent "post-concussion syndrome" treatment this past December, is very concerning, since his only reported concussion occurred way back in early October of 2016. And, of course, the fact that he bailed on the 2017 season after reportedly pulling something similar at USC in his senior year (going AWOL for a few days after being injured in a game).

So, the hybrid SS/LB role has been, more or less, a standard role in the Pats system for awhile (and one that they've had difficulty filling consistently), and Cravens seems to fit the role. And he'd be dirt cheap for three seasons.

But questions about his physical and mental durability for the game of football seem to make even a mere 7th-round pick a bit of a risk to me unless the Pats can get it back if he epic-fails again.

 

[Uptown]

NFL Rumors: Richard Sherman, Aqib Talib ‘Have Their Eye’ On Patriots