Our Defense is NOT Loaded; our BACKUPS are weak.

[Wozzy]

Which is why the depth here is considered weak.

Anyone dismissing rookie prospects because of draft status are either too lazy to do their own scouting or outright clueless.

NFL players come from from every round and even the undrafted ranks.

Matt Judon's 5th round or small Grand Valley State pedigree didn't make him a lesser player. Ponder looked great as an undrafted rookie.

Give me the unknown of 3-4 athletic prospects over a more expensive old guy who hasn't played in years because his body is toast all day every day.

I trust in the Patriots scouts and coaches. We won't know if the team is thin until we see what these backups have.

If by midway though camp it looks bleak, this team has money and means to sign a vet. They'll still be sitting there.

 

[Family]

Anyone dismissing rookie prospects because of draft status are either too lazy to do their own scouting or outright clueless.

NFL players come from from every round and even the undrafted ranks.

Matt Judon's 5th round or small school pedigree didn't make him a lesser player. Ponder looked great as an undrafted rookie.

Give me the unknown of 3-4 athletic prospects over a more expensive old guy who hasn't played in years because his body is toast all day every day.

I trust in the Patriots scouts and coaches. We won't know if the team is thin until we see what these backups have. If by midway though camp it looks bleak this team has money and means to sign a vet. They'll still be sitting there.

Yeah a few make it. But far less than drafted players.

Yeah I'd rather have one who works out over an expensive old guy. But most UFA who make it aren't ready to be even backups. Even your example, Jon Jones spent a few years strictly on special teams.

But if that's who you're counting to rely on as depth, good luck.

 

[rkarp1]

Which is why the depth here is considered weak.

I believe the word is "thin"
give it 3-4 weeks, I assume we see some additional depth arrive

 

[Family]

I believe the word is "thin"
give it 3-4 weeks, I assume we see some additional depth arrive

Wozzy's not wrong, but at this stage, an UFA is a lottery ticket to contribute as a position player. Yeah people hit, but rare.

A better example was of a real UFA success is Malcom Butler. But Bill had him playing beside Revis from the beginning of camp.

If they line up, and one of the UFA is getting some starter reps early in camp, then OK talk about him. Last year many posters were in love with Chism, but he really never got starter reps. A UFA becomes conversation when he gets consistent starter reps in camp. Ponder was recognized in camp early. Until that point, they are lottery tickets or possible special teams players.

 

[Wozzy]

Yeah a few make it. But far less than drafted players.

Few drafted players make it, the NFL is hard.

Yeah I'd rather have one who works out over an expensive old guy. But most UFA who make it aren't ready to be even backups. Even your example, Jon Jones spent a few years strictly on special teams.

But if that's who you're counting to rely on as depth, good luck.

You’re talking about peak dynasty Patriots, they won the SB in 2016. They also weren’t a new regime in year two getting their guys in place… they were going on two decades.

 

[Family]

Few drafted players make it, the NFL is hard.

Probably 4-5 drafted players make the roster a year. About 1 UFA makes it. And there's 2.5 times more UFA in camp.

They're lottery tickets.

 

[Wozzy]

Probably 4-5 drafted players make the roster a year. About 1 UFA makes it. And there's 2.5 times more UFA in camp.

They're lottery tickets.

A quarter of NFL rosters is made up of UDFA’s, last years Patriots roster was roughly a quarter UDFA’s, last years Patriots rookies were roughly a quarter UDFA’s.

A quarter of the league being UDFA’s is not an outlier.

 

[Family]

A quarter of NFL rosters is made up of UDFA’s, last years Patriots roster was roughly a quarter UDFA’s, last years Patriots rookies were roughly a quarter UDFA’s.

A quarter of the league being UDFA’s is not an outlier.

I didn't realize it was so high, but it is misleading to our discussion.

Most UFA do not contribute as rookies.

Mostly, these UFA players were practice squad and non contributors as rookies who hung in and eventually became depth. Often not for the team they started with.

You're pointing at these rookies now for this year. Yeah someday, maybe, but this year they are lottery tickets.

 

[Wozzy]

I didn't realize it was so high, but it is misleading to our discussion.

It is, and it is not misleading.

Most UFA do not contribute as rookies.

Most UDFA’s aren’t being brought in to take a starting position, most middle to late round draft picks aren’t either.

Mostly, these UFA players were practice squad and non contributors as rookies who hung in and eventually became depth. Often not for the team they started with.

We’re discussing backups. Check out the thread title.

You're pointing at these rookies now for this year. Yeah someday, maybe, but this year they are lottery tickets.

All rookies are scratch tickets, some just have better odds.

 

[Family]

All rookies are scratch tickets, some just have better odds.

Not true. Every first and second round pick will stay with their team this year and many will be adequate backups.

This will be true of only a handful of the hundreds of UFAs.

It is, and it is not misleading.

This is why talking about the total number in the league is misleading. UFA are hard workers who learn enough to eventually earn a spot in the league.

You talk about rookie UFAs when with the exception of maybe 1-2 and more usually none are position contributors.

We’re discussing backups. Check out the thread title.

Exactly. Most rookie UFA's are not contributors as backups, except on special teams.

You talk like they're going to be depth as position players this year.

So you check the thread title.

 

[mayoclinic]

 

[mgteich]

For me, Prunty is an OK 5th round choice as long as he is a good special teamer.

We will likely carry 6 corners with backup competitors being Prunty, Vildor, Woods, Dial and Minor. Hopefully, one of these will be a dependable 4th corner. As should be the case, I believe that all 5 are experienced STers.

 

[p8ryts]

seems like a desirable trait.

 

[Wozzy]

Not true. Every first and second round pick will stay with their team this year and many will be adequate backups.

Jamarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf want a word.

This will be true of only a handful of the hundreds of UFAs.

Roughly 25% of the entire league.

This is why talking about the total number in the league is misleading. UFA are hard workers who learn enough to eventually earn a spot in the league.

You talk about rookie UFAs when with the exception of maybe 1-2 and more usually none are position contributors.

You keep trying to dance around the 25% of the league, but dancing doesn’t change facts. But I didn’t just talk about the entire league, I spoke about last years AFC champion Patriots having roughly a quarter UDFA’s as contributors. Roughly a quarter of rookies who made the 53 man roster last season were UDFA’s.

Exactly. Most rookie UFA's are not contributors as backups, except on special teams.

You talk like they're going to be depth as position players this year.

So you check the thread title.

They’re directly looking for backups to the two starting ILB’s. That’s the title of the thread. The team is looking for backups who potentially could become starters one day.

I find it funny you insist they’re thin this year because of prospects draft status, especially when Muma was a 3rd round pick, Obizaor was a 6th and there’s only a couple of UDFA’s in the mix.

Meanwhile Jack Gibbens was an UDFA and wasn’t good, so he’s no loss at all. Tavai was a 2nd rounder but was a bust until he was almost retirement age and was merely adequate and toast last year. What are we missing from last year that can’t be massively improved upon?

Both of this teams starting ILB’ers Spillane and Elliss were UDFA’s… but you don’t see the absurdity in telling me they rarely become starters.

Laughable…

 

[Family]

Laughable…

What's laughable is that every UFA example you offer did little as a rookie. Most barely even played.

Spillane, Ellis, Gibbens, all your examples, are my examples.

The discussion is not about what they eventually become.

Read the thread title. Who will help this year?

The odds are none of them.

 

[Wozzy]

What's laughable is that every UFA example you offer did little as a rookie. Most barely even played.

Spillane, Ellis, Gibbens, all your examples, are my examples.

The discussion is not about what they eventually become.

Read the thread title. Who will help this year?

The odds are none of them.

Since when did playing a lot as a rookie become the conversation?

Again… the entire conversation is about backups… read the thread title again.

 

[rkarp1]

Not true. Every first and second round pick will stay with their team this year and many will be adequate backups.

This will be true of only a handful of the hundreds of UFAs.



This is why talking about the total number in the league is misleading. UFA are hard workers who learn enough to eventually earn a spot in the league.

You talk about rookie UFAs when with the exception of maybe 1-2 and more usually none are position contributors.



Exactly. Most rookie UFA's are not contributors as backups, except on special teams.

You talk like they're going to be depth as position players this year.

So you check the thread title.

I already had this exact same discussion with Wozzy about 2 weeks ago.
he knows he is wrong
he will never admit it

 

[Family]

Since when did playing a lot as a rookie become the conversation?

Again… the entire conversation is about backups… read the thread title again.

Yes and I am asking how many UFA's a year become adequate backups during their rookie season in the NFL. You'll give a few 15 second soundbites like that answers the question, but I'm talking overall real numbers.

Everything you say positive is a positive for every position on the team. But I look at other positions eyeing depth I on the team, and this position is one of the worse. TE recently became more of a problem, but going into camp this was weaker IMO than any offensive position depth wise. Some will say offensive line, but I think there's a solid 7 there, and that's as good as you can ask for.

I am not comparing the league. I am comparing what I feel is one of the weakest positions. I don't care about UFA's because every position has them. At WR they have little chance of making the roster, and here our tongue is a little hanging out.

That's how I evaluate depth.

 

[Family]

I already had this exact same discussion with Wozzy about 2 weeks ago.
he knows he is wrong
he will never admit it

He's right. Five of these guys could be NFL players.

But the odds are great that their success is with other teams. They either fit in another system, or hit it off with a coach. The guy Skipper who just retired. I never thought he was an NFL player. The UFA's are generally the ones who work hard and find their team. It's usually not even the first team, so why the bandwidth on them.

The odds are .5 will help this year.

What pct of UFA's from last year's team started here? I don't think it's high.

 

[rkarp1]

He's right. Five of these guys could be NFL players.

But the odds are great that their success is with other teams. They either fit in another system, or hit it off with a coach. The guy Skipper who just retired. I never thought he was an NFL player. The UFA's are generally the ones who work hard and find their team. It's usually not even the first team, so why the bandwidth on them.

The odds are .5 will help this year.

What pct of UFA's from last year's team started here? I don't think it's high.

I posted the numbers over the last 10 year period.
the number is miniscule, of how many UDFA's make the 53 man roster year 1.
to go into a season, depending on contributions from UDFA's is a poor plan imo.
we saw last season Ponder eased in. weeks 1,2 and 4 last season he played 5, 4 and 3 defensive snaps.
it was not until week 10 (Landry was injured) that Ponder started to see regular week over week double digit defensive snaps (mostly 20-30% of the defensive snaps)