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OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread


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Need Brady, Gronk and TB to do the Pats a favor and take down LV this week. Has the feel of a high scoring game to me.

I'll be very concerned about their coaching, discipline, and overall ability to be a real contender if they lose this game. Not that it's an easy game and should be a cakewalk but because it should be a fairly close game but they are clearly the better team.

They are 1-2 on the road with their only win against the Broncos water boy QB. They looked horrible against the Saints and never should have lost that Bears game where they melted down with so many penalties and mental mistakes.

They are once again a field goal favorite on the road against a decent opponent, and these are the types of games that separate 12-4 teams from 10-6 teams that fizzle out in the postseason.
 
I don’t know why people need to move the goalposts when it comes to Bill drafting receivers. He can’t, flat out. That doesn’t mean that Bill can’t draft position x, y, or z. I don’t know why there is a need for the “yeah but he drafted so and so I’m another position!”
 
There is a very solid chance Bill didn’t draft receivers for too high until 2019 because Gronk was the focal point of the offense. We didn’t need receivers who were superstars because Gronk was the superstar commanding the attention. Once Gronk left was when Bill spent a first round pick on a receiver. He just picked a bad one.
 
Article is about the Bucs being way ahead of the second best team (Baltimore) for highest DVOA.


best team in the NFC
 
But you really can when you factor in how much the QB position in this era effects wins. There is no position in all of sports that takes a mediocre or even a crap team and makes them a contender. Then you add in Brady who is the most efficient, clutch player of all time who elevated talent around him and that pretty much throws a pretty complete cover over GM moves and allowed Bill take as much risk as he wanted on top of Brady taking below market deals which also gave Bill leverage when it came to contract neg. with his players.

And other GMs did not have a QB who had a prime as long as Brady who has making taking care of his body a religion.
yeah, u r right

guess it's one of these things that we'r never gonna know
 
There's another part of this too, which is, when it comes to draft value and also the value after rookie contract, is this a position that's overvalued by the market?

And this is the main reason why I think the Patriots don't spend a lot of high picks on WRs. We see that they tend to assign WR value much lower than other teams, whereas they will pay market value (or close to market) for elite defensive backs (Gilmore, Revis, McCourty, Talib offer), linemen/ linebackers who excel against the run and in the red zone (Mayo, Hightower, Wilfork, Seymour), and offensive linemen (Mason, Mankins, Thuney, Cannon, Light, Solder offer). Not surprisingly, you see that a lot of their early round draft picks skew towards these positions as well.

This isn't a trend but a very clear organizational belief system, tied to Belichick's supply and demand value scouting, which I think is his greatest asset as a football mind. It is clear that certain positions are overvalued and others are undervalued. So if, for example, you "hit" on a first round wide receiver draft prospect, overall that won't make your team as good as a "hit" on a first round cornerback, guard, or linebacker (provided the wide receiver wasn't rated extremely high relative to draft position, like supposedly N'Keal Harry was.)

Belichick even stated this, as it was picked up in one of those books (I think a Michael Holley one) when he questioned why Atlanta would move up and spend so much draft capital to draft Julio Jones when they could just trade back and grab Michael Floyd later in the round. Now, he was obviously wrong on that one, but that principle has guided him over the years.

You'll hear the Patriots in the bidding for the best defensive backs, defensive tackles, etc. quite often, willing to pay quite a bit, but when is the last time they've actually tried to lure a big time free agent wide receiver? Never? They know they're overpaying and that the deal makes no sense considering the other available players relative to their asking prices. They look for bargains like Brandon LaFell and Chris Hogan, who will give you 75% of what Julio Jones brings for a fraction of the cost. Basically every WR who has played in New England has played for well below market or had to walk to make market: Edelman, Welker, Cooks, Branch, Brown. Moss nearly left in 2008 free agency. Amendola might be the only exception. But again, it isn't because the Patriots are "cheap" because they'll break the bank for the Gilmores and Wilforks; it's that this position is overvalued, which applies to the draft, too.

But let me clarify: having good wide receivers is absolutely not overvalued! That is why seems to get muddled when people talk about how the Patriots don't need good receivers (!). That is absolutely not it. They definitely need great players everywhere to succeed. The main thing here is that the high-cost (draft capital and free agency) wide receivers are overvalued relative to the mid-cost and low-cost ones.

But I have to tell you, in conclusion, that this belief has certainly been challenged in recent years.
It was Jonathan Baldwin not Michael Floyd. Floyd was decent for a few years, the fact he thought Baldwin and Julio had similar value gives credence to him/them not being at all good at scouting college WRs.
 
It was Jonathan Baldwin not Michael Floyd. Floyd was decent for a few years, the fact he thought Baldwin and Julio had similar value gives credence to him/them not being at all good at scouting college WRs.

Thanks for the correction. I don't draw the same conclusion though about the Patriots not being able to scout WRs...every year or so there's a guy or two who are supposed to be "the next superstar" at WR, but often times that guy isn't and there are other options later in the draft. Sure - in this case, they were wrong. For every Julio Jones trade-up, costing all that draft capital, you get some horrible value returns like Sammy Watkins.
 
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This isn't the NFL, we root for teams, not for players, unless we're fantasy heads.

The overall record that matters to me is:
View attachment 29024
Vs:
View attachment 29025
Seems like one needs to do more than have good WRs to win championships.
Again that has nothing to do with whether the Pats draft receivers better.... I don’t know why some people can’t take any criticism.
 
Is this a serious post ? You are aware of his achievements, no ?

I really don’t understand the hatred for BB. He’s brought so much winning and joy for decades.

And so has Brady...........

And BB chucked him out.

Like when your favourite uncle disowns your favourite cousin. Gotta pick a side. Can't invite both to the Xmas party anymore.
 
We didn't need to rebuild. The rebuild started when we ditched Brady.

If they let Brady go on account of him “being too old” and thinking they’d just plug in someone/draft someone, then it’s arrogance on the level of Jerry Krause.

God forbid you have the GOAT QB play one extra year beyond his prime and have to eat a cap hit at some point. Risk:reward here is totally irrational.

But I think there was more of a personality clash/grind formed over many years. In that case, I don’t fault BB; I fault the spineless owner for choosing the side he chose.

I‘d take a few years of elite QB play over 10 years of “elite coaching” - whatever that actually is. No one has been able to actually quantify it, other than oddsmakers who basically consider coaching advantages to be negligible.

Referencing this article below and knowing Brady is conservatively worth 7 points per game (in his prime, higher) over an average replacement QB. That‘s 112 points per season and 336 points over three years. Belichick would just need to coach for another 60-70 seasons to be worth that much (5 points added per season).

But hey, this is just professional oddsmakers making these models...I’d much rather listen to screaming idiot radio hosts and Booger MacFarland give their opinions about value.

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If they let Brady go on account of him “being too old” and thinking they’d just plug in someone/draft someone, then it’s arrogance on the level of Jerry Krause.

God forbid you have the GOAT QB play one extra year beyond his prime and have to eat a cap hit at some point. Risk:reward here is totally irrational.

But I think there was more of a personality clash/grind formed over many years. In that case, I don’t fault BB; I fault the spineless owner for choosing the side he chose.

I‘d take a few years of elite QB play over 10 years of “elite coaching” - whatever that actually is. No one has been able to actually quantify it, other than oddsmakers who basically consider coaching advantages to be negligible.

Referencing this article below and knowing Brady is conservatively worth 7 points per game (in his prime, higher) over an average replacement QB. That‘s 112 points per season and 336 points over three years. Belichick would just need to coach for another 60-70 seasons to be worth that much.

But hey, this is just professional oddsmakers making these models...I’d much rather listen to screaming idiot radio hosts and Booger MacFarland give their opinions about value.

View attachment 29030

I still wonder how much it bothered Brady that Kraft bent over for Goodell with his embarrassing good of the 32 press conference. In other words his owner nodded and smiled for the commish when Tom was accused of being a cheater.

Maybe his book one day will tell us more about that. Im sure he hasn’t forgotten it. I wouldn’t.
 
I still wonder how much it bothered Brady that Kraft bent over for Goodell with his embarrassing good of the 32 press conference. In other words his owner nodded and smiled for the commish when Tom was accused of being a cheater.

Maybe his book one day will tell us more about that. Im sure he hasn’t forgotten it. I wouldn’t.

It‘s hard to argue that the Antonio Brown release wasn’t the straw that broke the camel’s back, which was Kraft in his most cowardly form with his nose in Roger Goodell’s underwear. No other NFL owner would have released an all-pro WR on a $12M contract (accelerating the cap hit into 2019 entirely instead of spreading it out as it was structured) based on a suspicious civil lawsuit, especially when the he just joined the team and was being taken publicly under the wing of an excited Brady.

He could have kept Brown and forced the league to suspend him or put him on the exempt list, whereby Brown had some leverage with the NFLPA, and there’s a decent chance Brown could have served the suspension and returned. But he released him, causing Brown to be an inactive former player which allowed the league to blackball him and suspend him by omission, for the sake of his good, loyal buddy Roger, who had conveniently swept Brown’s behavior in Pittsburgh under the rug for years.

We know Brady’s reaction to this, and the rest is history. The sad thing is Kraft never deserved Brady or Belichick; when forced to make tough decisions, he’s always a coward who serves Bob’s pockets. Deflategate was likely just the first time we saw what an absolute **** Bob Kraft is, though that seems to be his nature.
 
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They never really invested any big money deals in any of those guys other than Brown but Brown was the best receiver in the league.

Antonio Brown was a 6th round pick.
Juju was a second.
Mike Wallace was a third.
Emmanuel Sanders was a third.
Randle El was a second.
10
The only receivers they invested a first round pick in (since 2000) are Santonio Holmes and Plaxico who both ended up being good players. They have had a few busts in the first 3 rounds, Limas Sweed, Sammie Coats and a few solid but not stars, Martavious Bryant and Markus Wheaton but overall I’d take that crop over the receivers we drafted.

Bill has taken 6 receivers in the first 3 rounds with the Patriots. All but Deion Branch were busts.

In 2016 we signed Hogan to a 3 yr/12 mill. Michael Thomas went in the second round in the ballpark of where we normally pick and he signed for 4 yr/5.1 mill.
Hypothetically if Bill decided he wanted to invest in a first round WR Josh Doctson was drafted a few spots higher than we normally pick and he signed for 4 yrs/10 million.

In 2014 Brandon Lafell signed for 3 yr/9 mill. That same draft Davante Adams went in the second round and signed a 4 yr/3.9 mill deal.

In 2013 Danny Amendola signed for 5 yrs/28.5 mill. He could’ve drafted a receiver with every pick in the draft and not spent that much.
When you decide to fill your receiver core with free agents you usually spend more and get shorter contracts.

If we just drafted the position better we would spend less and have better players.

Excellent excellent post. So pound for pound the Steelers draft vastly better receivers in similar rounds. It's not like they always use high picks and the Pats are finding gems in the bargain basement.
 
He's a great GM but has to rely on his staff's evaluations. For example if his OC says a WR or TE is a first round talent he has to weight that factor in with everything else, especially if it sounds like an undervalued asset. Problem is if he keeps listening to an OC who has never drafted or developed any good WR or TE over 15 years. I guess at some point it's on Belichick to finally realize his OC can't scout for sh-t.

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BB, as the top operations dog, bears some responsability in all successes and all failures within the organization. Scouting and Drafting and Developing as well
 
BB, as the top operations dog, bears some responsability in all successes and all failures within the organization. Scouting and Drafting and Developing as well

of course. but again it's time to change the opinions giving wr and te input.
 
of course. but again it's time to change the opinions giving wr and te input.
I can agree with u on this.

This is pure opinion on my part, but I think they rely too heavily on intangibles for Wr....

Im hoping that without Brady, we can rely a bit less on option routes all around, even if they are fundamental in our system

of course i love smart players that can read the field, but mayne its time to bet on people who can get separation through quickness, athletics and/or physical prowess

Just gotta keep hoping we ge lucky on one of our picks...
 
But you really can when you factor in how much the QB position in this era effects wins. There is no position in all of sports that takes a mediocre or even a crap team and makes them a contender. Then you add in Brady who is the most efficient, clutch player of all time who elevated talent around him and that pretty much throws a pretty complete cover over GM moves and allowed Bill take as much risk as he wanted on top of Brady taking below market deals which also gave Bill leverage when it came to contract neg. with his players.

And other GMs did not have a QB who had a prime as long as Brady who has making taking care of his body a religion.

I agree partially. I'm in the camp that both BB and TB benefited from each other.
 
I'll be very concerned about their coaching, discipline, and overall ability to be a real contender if they lose this game. Not that it's an easy game and should be a cakewalk but because it should be a fairly close game but they are clearly the better team.

They are 1-2 on the road with their only win against the Broncos water boy QB. They looked horrible against the Saints and never should have lost that Bears game where they melted down with so many penalties and mental mistakes.

They are once again a field goal favorite on the road against a decent opponent, and these are the types of games that separate 12-4 teams from 10-6 teams that fizzle out in the postseason.

If they can practice I'll take a BB coached team almost every time. But three practice days in two weeks? I'll take the most talented team.
 
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