PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

NFL Appeal oral arguments thread


Status
Not open for further replies.
My bad. I misunderstood that you were arguing that you had insight into what the judges would do.

I haven't had the pleasure of appearing before any of them (at least, not that I can recall). Based on the transcript, Chin and Parker sound like ignorant jerks.
 
DO you personally know the judges or their clerks? Did they tell you they read the submissions? Did you happen to see the judges or the clerks reading the letters?

If not, you're just speculating/assuming.
And so are you
Why do you think your speculation is any better than anyone else's?
 
I haven't had the pleasure of appearing before any of them (at least, not that I can recall). Based on the transcript, Chin and Parker sound like ignorant jerks.
Based on transcript?
I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make.
Do you really think that "based on transcript" you have insight into whether or not they will choose to read Clements letter to them?
 
Based on transcript?
I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make.
Do you really think that "based on transcript" you have insight into whether or not they will choose to read Clements letter to them?

They sound biased. If so, they won't really care if the side they favor "massaged" the record a little.
 
They sound biased. If so, they won't really care if the side they favor "massaged" the record a little.
Again I disagree. The questions they ask really don't give insight into bias, as has been discussed here for almost a year.
Regardless, if they receive a letter regarding claims of lying they either are going to read it or they simply have no clue what they are doing and rule by throwing darts.
 
So I am guessing that the lying accusations were being taken seriously enough that Clement felt he needed to address them... And he did so by attacking the messenger, predictably.

I haven't been strongly following the NFL's traveling circus. I just have too little faith in the NFL, media and courts to find the motivation to follow it. Yet I did read what Blecker and Clement wrote (at least what was posted) and came away agreeing with you on both your points.

Unless I missed part of Clement's response (certainly possible) there isn't a fact based attempt to respond to the accusation of his lack of, ahem, "candor". His response to the charge is Bleaker and the Patriots are in cahoots and the "candor" accusation is beneath everyone.
The fact that he responds means either the court asked him to respond (those in the know can answer if that is done and was done here) or he was motivated to do so based on concern of the content/potential effect of Blecker.
I don't have a lawyer/court view of fairness as I am not involved in that field. "Fairness" to me is a relatively simple idea and practice (to my own peril :)). For a court to receive Blecker's specifics/accusation, and then receive that kind of National Enquirer response from Clement? At minimum it should result in either the court asking for a re-submission with a fact based response to the specifics else the court's scorn(for a lack of a better word). Yet I expect neither....
 
Haven't been following the thread but from what I remember reading in the beginning seemed like the NFL came out looking like the initial winner, what's the latest?
 
Haven't been following the thread but from what I remember reading in the beginning seemed like the NFL came out looking like the initial winner, what's the latest?
No word from the judges. The latest news is Blecker called out Clements for lying for the NFL during the appeal. Clement responded, both letters are sent to the judges.
 
They may read the post oral argument submissions, they may not. We may never know.

So the gist I get from your last few posts is:

1. Although against the written law, it is accepted that lawyers routinely lie in court.
2. Calling lawyers out on lying in court is frowned upon.
3. Judge's routinely slack by not reading critical information regarding their cases.

It would appear my hope that our judicial branch of government wasn't as infected by corruption, greed and laziness as the other 2 branches, was naive.
 
I haven't had the pleasure of appearing before any of them (at least, not that I can recall). Based on the transcript, Chin and Parker sound like ignorant jerks.


Or they sound like their minds were made up before the hearing even started

you're arguing against someone who projects endlessly......
 
So the gist I get from your last few posts is:

1. Although against the written law, it is accepted that lawyers routinely lie in court.
2. Calling lawyers out on lying in court is frowned upon.
3. Judge's routinely slack by not reading critical information regarding their cases.

It would appear my hope that our judicial branch of government wasn't as infected by corruption, greed and laziness as the other 2 branches, was naive.

This letter is not from a participant (ie., a name on the actual docket) in the case. I venture the court receives hundreds and thousands of such letters, so I do not expect the response will be fast tracked with all the business there.

Understand each judge is assisted by 4 attorneys (for that court, think Yale, Harvard, etc. graduates - far from stupid individuals). I bet the farm the judge (or judges), if he does not immediately have the answer, will tell that assistant to review/investigate the allegations and give him an opinion on the truth of the claim (with thousands of cases, these judges cannot simply drop the process of decisions on hundreds of cases and turn all attention to a concerned citizen). They absolutely take the allegations seriously, but I would not anticipate action immediately (it is an ethical matter separate from the case). Fans may be outraged, but these judges are not likely to act like fans and have some important cases on life, liberty and property to address as ongoing business.

Allegations are not frowned upon. By the parties, there are tactical reasons not to make the allegations (unfortunately, it can be a part of theatrics/melodrama and start to grate on the court prior to a decision in the "boy who cried wolf" sense). These ethical complaints are reviewed and referred to committees for action all the time.

Lost in all this discussion is oral argument does not add to the existing record. The assumption from the media and others is the judges somehow are incapable of reviewing the record (the only real evidence on appeal) and coming to an opinion on the subject without regard to advocate statements in oral argument. Any opinion representing a decision from that court is likely reviewed/drafted by 3 non-judge attorneys (their law clerks) and drafted/reviewed/edited and approved by the authoring judges (the final document reflects their opinion). The notion that these judges will miss something that armchair lawyers/non-lawyers have pointed out in the media is unlikely at best. Similarly, the odds of a judge basing a decision on some statement at argument that is not an "I have no claim here" concession is about zero.

For those trying to read oral argument exchanges, understand these judges deal with the smartest attorneys out there. The tone/statements of those discussions may be purely tactical in an effort to elicit a result. Many oral arguments appear to go badly, but the decision is 180 degrees out from how that argument appeared to go. I tend to put little weight on what is said, because it infrequently anticipates a result (silence can often be far worse, only worse than a denial of an oral argument request). In reality, these decisions are based on the closed universe of the cold trial record and possibly the briefs. Far less exciting than the riveting television court drama, but more often the reality of appellate practice.
 
So the gist I get from your last few posts is:

1. Although against the written law, it is accepted that lawyers routinely lie in court.
2. Calling lawyers out on lying in court is frowned upon.
3. Judge's routinely slack by not reading critical information regarding their cases.

It would appear my hope that our judicial branch of government wasn't as infected by corruption, greed and laziness as the other 2 branches, was naive.

If it makes you feel any better, they also have lifetime appointments.:rolleyes:
 


I'm sorry, but I don't see how this makes any sense.

So the letter hurts the NFLPA because it allowed Clement to respond once more, but this time to the fact that he lied about the false information in the joke of a suit he's representing?

That hurts Brady how?
 
for that information you'll have to turn to Felger , who has judged this to be a slam dunk by Clement that effectively ends any case Brady thought he had. Felger goes on further stating that Brady should "move on" and "accept the NFL is unfair"...

Bertrand: Pats should ‘be the bigger man’ with Deflategate
 
Wait, so Felger is in the NFL is corrupt group now? I hadn't been paying attention to him.
 
This letter is not from a participant (ie., a name on the actual docket) in the case. I venture the court receives hundreds and thousands of such letters, so I do not expect the response will be fast tracked with all the business there.

Understand each judge is assisted by 4 attorneys (for that court, think Yale, Harvard, etc. graduates - far from stupid individuals). I bet the farm the judge (or judges), if he does not immediately have the answer, will tell that assistant to review/investigate the allegations and give him an opinion on the truth of the claim (with thousands of cases, these judges cannot simply drop the process of decisions on hundreds of cases and turn all attention to a concerned citizen). They absolutely take the allegations seriously, but I would not anticipate action immediately (it is an ethical matter separate from the case). Fans may be outraged, but these judges are not likely to act like fans and have some important cases on life, liberty and property to address as ongoing business.

Allegations are not frowned upon. By the parties, there are tactical reasons not to make the allegations (unfortunately, it can be a part of theatrics/melodrama and start to grate on the court prior to a decision in the "boy who cried wolf" sense). These ethical complaints are reviewed and referred to committees for action all the time.

Lost in all this discussion is oral argument does not add to the existing record. The assumption from the media and others is the judges somehow are incapable of reviewing the record (the only real evidence on appeal) and coming to an opinion on the subject without regard to advocate statements in oral argument. Any opinion representing a decision from that court is likely reviewed/drafted by 3 non-judge attorneys (their law clerks) and drafted/reviewed/edited and approved by the authoring judges (the final document reflects their opinion). The notion that these judges will miss something that armchair lawyers/non-lawyers have pointed out in the media is unlikely at best. Similarly, the odds of a judge basing a decision on some statement at argument that is not an "I have no claim here" concession is about zero.

For those trying to read oral argument exchanges, understand these judges deal with the smartest attorneys out there. The tone/statements of those discussions may be purely tactical in an effort to elicit a result. Many oral arguments appear to go badly, but the decision is 180 degrees out from how that argument appeared to go. I tend to put little weight on what is said, because it infrequently anticipates a result (silence can often be far worse, only worse than a denial of an oral argument request). In reality, these decisions are based on the closed universe of the cold trial record and possibly the briefs. Far less exciting than the riveting television court drama, but more often the reality of appellate practice.
Wow. Thanks for posting that. Very informative.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


TRANSCRIPT: Jerod Mayo’s Appearance on WEEI On Monday
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/30: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Drake Maye’s Interview on WEEI on Jones & Mego with Arcand
MORSE: Rookie Camp Invitees and Draft Notes
Patriots Get Extension Done with Barmore
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/29: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-28, Draft Notes On Every Draft Pick
MORSE: A Closer Look at the Patriots Undrafted Free Agents
Five Thoughts on the Patriots Draft Picks: Overall, Wolf Played it Safe
2024 Patriots Undrafted Free Agents – FULL LIST
Back
Top