My 8/21 guess at the 53

[italia44]

From those covering the team over the offseason, and even from Jackson himself, this offseason and camp was considered to be his best shot at making an impact, and the Pats were considered to have given him every opportunity to keep the #3 job. This isn't my theory, just simply what was reported over the summer.

This is a complete fabrication.No one who covers or follows this team has ever said that Jackson had to make an "impact" in the offseason and training camp,as this was his last chance.

How exactly does one make an "impact",as you put it in the offseason?Jackson was cited on more than one occasion as having worked dilegently in the offseason program.

How many snaps has Cj gotten with Tom Brady in the first 2 preseason games?

Your analysis is absurd.

You followed this with the statement that Lamont Jordan will have "little or no role as the 4th HB".....another absurdity.
Jordan will have more run opportunities and catches than Morris,Faulk or Evans.
Against certain teams he will start over Maroney.

Your vendetta against certain players is clouding your judgement.
Stick to grammar,syntax and spelling.

There are no sacred cows on this board,if you make foolish statements you're going to be called on them.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

I too, believe Jordon will be more than just a 4th rb. He did too much on a bad Oakland team to be considered a bench warmer. PLus, I really liked what I saw from him in the Baltimore game.

I also hope we keep more than 4 cb's. Every year we have injuries to that position, as well as rb. So I'm in favor of keeping more guys for those two positions.

Izzo? I like Izzo. BUT. He is mainly a special teamer. If one of the young LB's looks good at LB, and can do a 'decent' job on ST's, than Izzo is gone. I like what I see from our younger LB's, and do not want to take the chance of losing them on waivers. Yes, I know B.B. believes in strong ST's. I just think Izzo is from from a lock to make this team.

With that said, be glad I'm a fan, and do not run this team
In B.B. we trust:rocker:

 

[dhamz]

Someone needs to explain the Sam Aiken obsession to me. The guy has barely practiced and would be an extra special teamer. How does he earn a roster spot so easily?
And as bad as Jackson has been, I don't see the team keeping only three WRs who had a catch last year in favor of three special teams WRs.

Not saying Aiken makes it over Jackson but if your criteria is the 4th WR had to have a catch last year, Aiken would be the guy by default. He is the only WR besides the top 3 to catch a ball in the NFL last year.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Not saying Aiken makes it over Jackson but if your criteria is the 4th WR had to have a catch last year, Aiken would be the guy by default. He is the only WR besides the top 3 to catch a ball in the NFL last year.

Prior to getting injured, I thought Aiken looked pretty good, and not just special teams. I thought he was catching well, and he has good size, but i'm not sure about his blocking. Anyone seen him block?

 

[everlong]

They traded up for Slater so I think that makes it unlikely they cut him and I doubt he'd make it through to the practice squad.

If the Bucs cut Chris Simms I would like to see us sign him. He's still young, has experience as a starter, is tough as nails, the Phil\Bill relationship is there, he clearly understands defenses, I think it's a no brainer. One of Cassell and Guit are gone for sure.

I really hope Guyton makes the squad he has played really well.

Neal will almost certainly start the season on the PUP opening a spot for Wellbourne.

Edit: I think CJ is gone, he had never shown any burst or the ability to get open by a step. Also zero on special teams as a returner. Bethal Johnson at least had that going for him.

 

[BradyManny]

This is my first guess of the offseason - I think. Assuming Neal doesn't start the year on PUP (if he does, then his roster spot would be replaced by Welbourn):

QB (3): Brady, Gutierrez, O'Connell
RB/FB (5): Maroney, Faulk, Morris, Evans, Jordan
WR (6): Moss, Welker, Gaffney, Washington, Aiken, Slater
TE (2): Watson, Thomas
OT (4): Light, Kaczur, Britt, O'Callaghan
OG/C (6): Koppen, Mankins, Neal, Hochstein, Yates, Flynn
DL (6): Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Wright, L. Smith
OLB (4): Vrabel, A. Thomas, Woods, Crable
ILB (5): Bruschi, Mayo, (Seau???), Guyton, Izzo, Alexander
CB (4): Hobbs, Bryant, Wheatley, Wilhite
S (5): Harrison, J. Sanders, Meriweather, Lynch, Spann
ST (3): Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton

While I don't think Jackson has done an awful lot (that we can see) to earn a roster spot in this training camp - and I am as big a Jackson homer as there is - the Pats will and should give him more time. In a lot of ways, this is really his rookie year, his first year was a red-shirt in some ways, and year 2 was most definitely a red shirt.

Furthermore there's the practical point that without Jackson, they really only have 3 pure wide receivers on that squad. When I was at camp, Kelley Washington wasn't even doing wide receiver drills, he split to take part in ST drills. We have yet to see Washington be used as a wide receiver in pre-season either. Ventrone, Slater, who knows how they'd fare as receivers in an NFL game. So either CJ Jones or Chad Jackson is making this team - they need a fourth wideout, and I don't think the team has shown any interest in making K-Washington that guy...yet.

I think Yates has played himself out of a roster spot. He's been awful in the preseason, and I can't imagine them keeping him around when they've signed a couple career starters at interior line spots (Welbourn, Flynn). Yates will have to prove he has more value than either of those two guys and so far, he has been terrible in the preseason games.

I want to keep Spann and Lewis Sanders. I know that looks like too many DBs on paper, but Lewis Sanders looked good in the first preseason game defending the slot receiver. Granted, it seems like Lynch was handed that role in preseason game 2, so who knows.

I would put Cassel over Gutes. Cassel looked OK to me last game, and the team must be confident in him. At my one day of training camp, I thought he was the least unimpressive, I really thought O'C and Gutes struggled just throwing the ball.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I'm having a tough time understanding what we gain from keeping two untested QBs on the roster behind Brady.

If we had a strong veteran it'd be one thing - even though that's depth in the nightmare scenario of Brady being unable to play. But we don't - we've got Cassell, Guitierrez and O'Connell.

Given his play and status as a third round draft choice, O'Connell isn't making it through to PS. Guttierez might. And if Cassell is cut, I'm not sure how many teams, having just managed to get down to 53 players themselves, will find room for a QB with nearly no actual playing time in the Pros or in College, on their team.

That could leave Cassell in shadow roster mode for us - making him available for a quick pickup should the unthinkable happen and we need depth (I'd expect there might be other unsigned veteran QBs with actual experience available should that happen too.)

It's BB's call but going with two QBs, given some of the other roster needs, seems like the way to go for me.

 

[pats1]

Someone needs to explain the Sam Aiken obsession to me. The guy has barely practiced and would be an extra special teamer. How does he earn a roster spot so easily?

For the last 5 or so years, he's essentially been the Bills' Larry Izzo. The Pats didn't go after him at the beginning of free agency for nothing.

And as bad as Jackson has been, I don't see the team keeping only three WRs who had a catch last year in favor of three special teams WRs.

Washington is not a "special teams WR," at least in the Aiken or Slater sense. Before he was injured and buried on the depth chart in Cincinnati, he caught 23 and 31 balls in 2003 and 2004. If Stallworth or Gaffney had gone down last season, especially before Brown or Jackson got back, we certainly would have seen Washington out there - believe me.

Other than that, I like your list. I agree with Guyton and Alexander making the team, but I also think Izzo is a possibility for surprise cut. I also agree with the choice to keep 5 RBs.

To reiterate: Izzo. Will. Not. Be. Cut.

 

[pats1]

The Pats do multiple WR sets during the season. He should get the year to prove himself.

How? When they go 4 WRs, it's most likely going to be the 'gun with Faulk in the backfield, and Gaffney, Moss, Welker, and Watson split wide.

Any team that has him on the roster will need him to contribute at least on special teams. I have yet to see him do anything special on special teams and his returns have been average at best. I don't think anyone can look at what this guy has done so far and think he will be remotely like Devin Hester. He is Bam Childress Part II as of right now.

Think back to April 2008. The Patriots traded up in order to get Slater, and later Belichick would say that they felt there would be a "run on that type of player" at that point. Slater has excellent speed and there's plenty of teams out there who will give him a shot at becoming their return specialist.

Slater has also played on plenty of punt and field goal units as well, and is a starting gunner.

Maybe. Maybe not. We got a lot of guys who are going to make this team through special teams play. There are only so many we can keep. If we are going to keep 5 RBs and extra o-linemen, a sixth WR may be a luxary we cannot afford. Aiken could be a victim of a numbers game.

I wouldn't consider Slater a 6th WR...more of a 4th STer.

I wouldn't say that. One thing he has going for him if he improves his play tomorrow night is that he can play both inside and outside if they need him to. He is the only back up who can. That might be valuable. He could make enough of an improvement that the coaching staff might give him the benefit of the doubt that changing teams and positions slowed him down.

I think "being able to play inside" is a bit of a stretch. Nor has Hobson played any OLB so far for the Patriots as far as I can tell in camp or the preseason.

 

[pats1]

He was the ST captain for the Bills for a few years, and nominated to the Probowl. The Bills lead the league in ST play, while he was there. He even caught a few balls in camp, as a WR.

BB gave him a two year contract. No one else got one. He is 27; Izzo is 34. Nuff said.

They're not mutually exclusive, though. No one said you can only have one good special teamer. Just look at the "Super Bowl era" Patriots with Izzo, Davis, and Chatham.

 

[pats1]

You've got to be kidding. Lamont Jordan isn't just a quality depth player, he could legitimately start for many teams in this league. He was fifth in the league in rushing last year before he was injured, despite playing behind Oakland's offensive line. And not only that, but he's posted a career average of 4.1 yards a carry--a definite sign of talent at his position in this league.

Not only does he possess both power and speed, he can also catch the ball--you are talking about a running back who combines many of the best qualities of Maroney, Morris, and Faulk into one. He easily beats out Eckel, and even Morris, for the roster spot. There simply isn't a question about it.

Also, I think even as the "number 4" running back--a situation I doubt, since BB rarely uses Faulk as a runner--he would see plenty of playing time. We've seen two-runningback systems; why not a three-runningback system? Maroney has proven to be injury prone and Morris has never been a starting RB.

Other than that buffoonery, I generally agree with your post.

I'm not going to get into that argument again, but what you fail to recognize is that on a 45-man gameday roster, there is absolutely no room to have Maroney, Faulk, Morris, Evans, and Jordan all active - ZERO ROOM. Period. Jordan is an insurance policy. It doesn't matter if you're a 10-time Pro Bowler or a UDFA when you're inactive every week.

I've never questioned that Jordan is a quality back, but there simply isn't a role for him on this football team on a game-to-game basis as long as Maroney, Faulk, Morris, and Evans are healthy, and I've said that from the beginning.

 

[pats1]

If he takes Izzo's spot, fine. But regardless of his ST prowess, I just don't see the team keeping 3 pass catchers and 3 special teamers at the WR spot. That's very, very dangerous for a team who likes to spread the field (not even mentioning the possibility of injury).

Kelley Washington was not signed to a 5-year, $12.5M contract to be a special teamer; he was signed before even Moss was around to be a receiving presence because that's what he was for a time in Cincinnati. Sure, the arrival of Moss basically relegated Washington to special teams duty, where he was pretty damn good, and as a result the Pats essentially restructured his contract in the offseason (declined his option and then re-signed him to a slightly lesser deal), but too many people here are making the assumption that Washington is just another Aiken - he isn't.

While Washington still probably won't see a lot of time with the offense this season, he has a decent history of catching passes and certainly could see spot duty in that rare 5-WR set or if an injury crops up.

 

[pats1]

This is a complete fabrication.No one who covers or follows this team has ever said that Jackson had to make an "impact" in the offseason and training camp,as this was his last chance.

How exactly does one make an "impact",as you put it in the offseason?Jackson was cited on more than one occasion as having worked dilegently in the offseason program.

How many snaps has Cj gotten with Tom Brady in the first 2 preseason games?

Your analysis is absurd.

Thank you for the kind words, but apparently you lived under a rock from May through July of this year.

Let me link you some mailbags by Mike Reiss from May, June, and July:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extras/askreiss/05_27_08/?page=full

Recent reports out of organized team activities indicate that Jackson looked sharp, which is a positive sign. Yet one aspect that has been reinforced to me in recent years is not to overstate what happens in an OTA or minicamp practice, because there are no pads and hitting. I've found over the last few years that it isn't real football until you add those elements.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extras/askreiss/06_17_08/?page=full

Kyle, my outlook on Jackson would be that he is going to have a great opportunity to show what he can do, essentially given every chance to prove he was worth that high second-round selection. I am not convinced it is going to come together for him, but it's clear he's an impressive physical talent.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extras/askreiss/07_15_08/?page=full

As for Chad Jackson, it’s been a popular question this offseason. He’s going to have a great chance to break through, and I could see it truly going either way. I’m not convinced it’s going to happen for him, but at the same time, I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the year he hits his stride. In the words of Bill Belichick, I wish I had a crystal ball to see where this one was headed. I’d sum up my thoughts by saying that it’s one thing to look great in shorts (which Jackson apparently has this offseason), but the true test comes when the pads are on and there is hitting. I’m anxious to see how Jackson responds to that challenge.

Or here's Reiss right before camp:

The Patriots were in three-wide or four-wide packages on 67 percent of their offensive snaps in 2007, a reflection of how they wanted their playmaking receivers on the field. Donte' Stallworth played in 60 percent of the team's offensive snaps last season -- most often as the Z receiver on the tight-end side -- and that role is up for grabs. Chad Jackson, a second-round draft choice in 2006, has a golden chance to assume those responsibilities, with Jabar Gaffney and Kelley Washington also options.

...

TOP QUESTIONS: Can Chad Jackson step into the role vacated by Donte' Stallworth?

Belichick was even asked in a July press conference if Jackson would fill the #3 role behind Welker and Moss:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2008/07/belichick_qa_2.html

Or here's a minicamp article by Paul Perillo and Andy Hart aptly titled "Opportunity knocks for Jackson:"

http://www.patriots.com/search/index.cfm?ac=searchdetail&pid=32073&pcid=41&rss=1

“How can you not? Donte’s gone and there’s a big spot open like everyone’s saying,” Jackson openly admitted when asked if he felt there was an opportunity to carve out a role. “Hopefully I can work hard and do everything I need to do to get that spot.”

You followed this with the statement that Lamont Jordan will have "little or no role as the 4th HB".....another absurdity.
Jordan will have more run opportunities and catches than Morris,Faulk or Evans.
Against certain teams he will start over Maroney.

I will delete my PatsFans account if Jordan starts over a healthy Maroney.

 

[pats1]

I too, believe Jordon will be more than just a 4th rb. He did too much on a bad Oakland team to be considered a bench warmer. PLus, I really liked what I saw from him in the Baltimore game.

I also hope we keep more than 4 cb's. Every year we have injuries to that position, as well as rb. So I'm in favor of keeping more guys for those two positions.

Izzo? I like Izzo. BUT. He is mainly a special teamer. If one of the young LB's looks good at LB, and can do a 'decent' job on ST's, than Izzo is gone. I like what I see from our younger LB's, and do not want to take the chance of losing them on waivers. Yes, I know B.B. believes in strong ST's. I just think Izzo is from from a lock to make this team.

With that said, be glad I'm a fan, and do not run this team
In B.B. we trust:rocker:

I've heard that ridiculous theory on Izzo before - that he "should" be replaced by guys who also can play on defense. Guess what? It never materialized:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=52126

 

[pats1]

While I don't think Jackson has done an awful lot (that we can see) to earn a roster spot in this training camp - and I am as big a Jackson homer as there is - the Pats will and should give him more time. In a lot of ways, this is really his rookie year, his first year was a red-shirt in some ways, and year 2 was most definitely a red shirt.

Furthermore there's the practical point that without Jackson, they really only have 3 pure wide receivers on that squad. When I was at camp, Kelley Washington wasn't even doing wide receiver drills, he split to take part in ST drills. We have yet to see Washington be used as a wide receiver in pre-season either. Ventrone, Slater, who knows how they'd fare as receivers in an NFL game. So either CJ Jones or Chad Jackson is making this team - they need a fourth wideout, and I don't think the team has shown any interest in making K-Washington that guy...yet.

Well, CJ Jones has barely played on offense too - his only shot at making the team these last two years has been as a returner, something he looked good at in 2007 but bad at so far in 2008.

I'm convinced that the 4th WR role will be significantly diminished from what it was last year (how much Stallworth did we even see near the end of last season?) and that in case of an injury, Washington is a fine replacement.

I think Yates has played himself out of a roster spot. He's been awful in the preseason, and I can't imagine them keeping him around when they've signed a couple career starters at interior line spots (Welbourn, Flynn). Yates will have to prove he has more value than either of those two guys and so far, he has been terrible in the preseason games.

Again, I just don't see them cutting an OL other than Connolly or Sene or Martin or Wendell at this point, especially one with starting experience on this team like Yates. Maybe later on, but they need all the bodies they can get right now.

I want to keep Spann and Lewis Sanders. I know that looks like too many DBs on paper, but Lewis Sanders looked good in the first preseason game defending the slot receiver. Granted, it seems like Lynch was handed that role in preseason game 2, so who knows.

Right - and remember that Hobbs was out for that first preseason game (as were Rodney and Sanders, meaning Meriweather didn't have any sub package role)

I would put Cassel over Gutes. Cassel looked OK to me last game, and the team must be confident in him. At my one day of training camp, I thought he was the least unimpressive, I really thought O'C and Gutes struggled just throwing the ball.

I honestly think they're going to bring someone else in, but if they don't, then O'C and Gutierrez stick, IMO.

 

[Rob0729]

How? When they go 4 WRs, it's most likely going to be the 'gun with Faulk in the backfield, and Gaffney, Moss, Welker, and Watson split wide.

So are you going to guarantee me that Gaffney, Moss, and Welker are not going to get injured and play all 16 games? Jackson hasn't stepped up to take the #4 WR spot, but who has? It isn't like you have seen anything out of any of the other WRs that say that they would be the #4 WR over Jackson.

Think back to April 2008. The Patriots traded up in order to get Slater, and later Belichick would say that they felt there would be a "run on that type of player" at that point. Slater has excellent speed and there's plenty of teams out there who will give him a shot at becoming their return specialist.

Slater has also played on plenty of punt and field goal units as well, and is a starting gunner.

Many of the talking heads didn't even know what position Slater played or what school he was from. It isn't like Belichick hasn't moved up to take a player in the 6th or 7th round and then cut him before camp starts. I still think Slater will make it to the practice squad. The guy hasn't done anything in the first two preseason games to justify a roster spot. Again, he is the second coming of Bam Childress in that the fans are really high on a guy who really hasn't proven anything yet.

I wouldn't consider Slater a 6th WR...more of a 4th STer.

How many pure STs are you going to have? You have two listed at WRs. Neither he nor Aiken can do much in the receiving game.

I think "being able to play inside" is a bit of a stretch. Nor has Hobson played any OLB so far for the Patriots as far as I can tell in camp or the preseason.

I put the caveot of "if he improves his play" for the ability to play inside. I didn't say that right now. But if he finally grasps the defense and produces some, then my statement would be true. Right now, I would agree it is a stretch.

Adalius Thomas played ILB exclusively in the preseason and training camp, but switched to OLB when Colvin went down. I don't think if either Vrabel or Thomas went down, that they would plug Hobson in the starting spot (assuming he makes the team), but he could end up being used as a rotational guy/back up at the postion. Don't minimize that.

 

[pats1]

I'm having a tough time understanding what we gain from keeping two untested QBs on the roster behind Brady.

If we had a strong veteran it'd be one thing - even though that's depth in the nightmare scenario of Brady being unable to play. But we don't - we've got Cassell, Guitierrez and O'Connell.

Given his play and status as a third round draft choice, O'Connell isn't making it through to PS. Guttierez might. And if Cassell is cut, I'm not sure how many teams, having just managed to get down to 53 players themselves, will find room for a QB with nearly no actual playing time in the Pros or in College, on their team.

That could leave Cassell in shadow roster mode for us - making him available for a quick pickup should the unthinkable happen and we need depth (I'd expect there might be other unsigned veteran QBs with actual experience available should that happen too.)

It's BB's call but going with two QBs, given some of the other roster needs, seems like the way to go for me.

I'd also like to see another QB thrown into the mix. Just not Vinny, please!

 

[pats1]

So are you going to guarantee me that Gaffney, Moss, and Welker are not going to get injured and play all 16 games? Jackson hasn't stepped up to take the #4 WR spot, but who has? It isn't like you have seen anything out of any of the other WRs that say that they would be the #4 WR over Jackson.

Jackson was "expected" to step up and take the #3 spot and make Gaffney the #4. Gaffney is proven and, although he wouldn't play much, could occupy the #4 spot. Jackson is unproven and wouldn't play much as the #4 WR, and has yet to make any impact on special teams. In the meantime, you have an elite ST player like Aiken and a returning ST player and adequate pass catcher in Washington who could fill the #4 WR role (injury replacement, 5 WR set here and there), but can also have a big special teams presence.

Many of the talking heads didn't even know what position Slater played or what school he was from. It isn't like Belichick hasn't moved up to take a player in the 6th or 7th round and then cut him before camp starts. I still think Slater will make it to the practice squad. The guy hasn't done anything in the first two preseason games to justify a roster spot. Again, he is the second coming of Bam Childress in that the fans are really high on a guy who really hasn't proven anything yet.

I'm not really considering Slater's DB or WR presence in this move, so Bam is irrelevant to me. I think he has awesome potential as a spark plug returner and a lightning-quick gunner, and he can carve himself a nice role on this team as that. But if Hobbs proves himself over the long run to be a better returner, then Slater is expendable, I suppose.

How many pure STs are you going to have? You have two listed at WRs. Neither he nor Aiken can do much in the receiving game.

Someone who has 72 career catches for 893 yards is a "pure special teamer?" I'm not saying Washington is the second coming of Jerry Rice, but the only reason Washington played as much on special teams as he did last year was because of Moss coming in after Washington's signing. If Moss didn't come, then we would have seen Welker, Stallworth, Gaffney, and Washington as the team's top 4 WRs.

I put the caveot of "if he improves his play" for the ability to play inside. I didn't say that right now. But if he finally grasps the defense and produces some, then my statement would be true. Right now, I would agree it is a stretch.

I don't see that happening in the 8 days (holy crap!) that remain before final cuts. I could even see him going in the first cutdown, a la Poteat or Spann a past years.

Adalius Thomas played ILB exclusively in the preseason and training camp, but switched to OLB when Colvin went down. I don't think if either Vrabel or Thomas went down, that they would plug Hobson in the starting spot (assuming he makes the team), but he could end up being used as a rotational guy/back up at the postion. Don't minimize that.

Woods and Crable would be in long before Hobson would. Hobson would only come in if both of those guys went down, and that is supported by everything that has gone in camp and the preseason so far.

And keep in mind that if Hobson was a half-decent OLB in the 3-4, either the Jets would have kept him or he would have been signed long before he was by the Pats in mid-April.

 

[BradyManny]

I'm convinced that the 4th WR role will be significantly diminished from what it was last year (how much Stallworth did we even see near the end of last season?) and that in case of an injury, Washington is a fine replacement.

I'd like to agree, as you point out, he has experience with Cincy (2 seasons of pretty decent production) and was signed here with the intention of being a contributing WR, but I haven't seen it yet in camp or pre-season yet.

I honestly think they're going to bring someone else in, but if they don't, then O'C and Gutierrez stick, IMO.

I don't particularly feel comfortable with the idea of Cassel filling in anymore than I do Gutierrez or O'C, but I agree with the "we don't need two developmental QBs on the roster" line of thinking. I could be way off, but I've come to think that O'C is a long term replacement of Cassel and a short term replacement of Gutes.

 

[pats1]

I'd like to agree, as you point out, he has experience with Cincy and was signed here with the intention of being a contributing WR, but I haven't seen it yet in camp or pre-season yet. Doesn't mean that he couldn't do it.

IIRC, he's been out for both of the preseason games. Am I saying he's going to become a consistent part of this offense? No. But he's more than adequate to fill that injury replacement/5th WR role.

I don't particularly feel comfortable with the idea of Cassel filling in anymore than I do Gutierrez or O'C, but I agree with the "we don't need two developmental QBs on the roster" line of thinking. I could be way off, but I've come to think that O'C is a long term replacement of Cassel and a short term replacement of Gutes.

The funny thing is, not too many people saw anything wrong with the QB situation a few months ago. Everyone thought then that they'd trade Cassel for a 7th and life would go on. Now, though, it's a mess in some respects.