Mac Jones' Last Five Games - 2022 vs 2021

[venecol]

Matt has a point here. Fact is there are worse OCs and offenses in the league than what the Patriots have. This in no way is to defend Patricia. He needs to go but placing 90% of the blame on him to exonerate the QB play (and the receivers) is nonsense.

 

[venecol]

@archstanton543 you seem to disagree with every one of my posts but don't offer any feedback or rebuttal. I'm open for a dialogue.

 

[crawhammer]

Matt has a point here. Fact is there are worse OCs and offenses in the league than what the Patriots have. This in no way is to defend Patricia. He needs to go but placing 90% of the blame on him to exonerate the QB play (and the receivers) is nonsense.

Firstly, it's Belichick that made things the way they are. He drafted Mac. He hired Patricia and Judge. Secondly, Mac struggled last season at the beginning and the ending of season. Mac like everyone else looked good during their midseason 7-game winning streak. They wrapped a 3-8 record around those 7 wins.

Finally, when Mac really needed strong coaching to get him back on track and elevate his game, he instead had Patricia and Judge, who had track records as head coaches of getting the worst out their quarterbacks. So nobody should be surprised that Mac has continued to regress this season on the whole.

I see a lot of specific data selection to try and make Mac's season look better than it is. His passer rating is 27th in the NFL. His TD% is 31st in the NFL (only Pickett is worse). He has 0 fourth quarter comebacks or game-winning drives. He's the only QB in the NFL with more than 10 starts to have 0 in both. And there are a bunch of QBs with less than 10 starts who have at least 1 in either category.

Mac has not had a good season.

 

[archstanton543]

@archstanton543 you seem to disagree with every one of my posts but don't offer any feedback or rebuttal. I'm open for a dialogue.

I disagree with your posts. There's plenty of blame pie to go around when it comes to the offense. Matt and Judge (and BB) deserve a lot of more of it than a second year QB trying to find his footing in this league.

 

[Ian]

I disagree with your posts. There's plenty of blame pie to go around when it comes to the offense. Matt and Judge (and BB) deserve a lot of more of it than a second year QB trying to find his footing in this league.

I think that's sort of where I am as well and it's what I keep coming back to. We're not discussing Marcus Mariota, Geno Smith, or Jared Goff. We're talking about a kid who hasn't even played two full seasons in the league. We're also talking about someone who went from being the worst in the NFL in interceptions to among the fewest, which was surprising to see when I pulled up those stats.

He's putting in the work and the effort, and he's trying to do the right things, and he's made himself accountable when he hasn't played well. He's not passing blame, not even subtly and he's continued to try to do the right thing. Maybe it will work out, maybe it won't, but I do feel like he deserves a shot to see how he does potentially with a little more talent and better coaching.

I think it was Evan who posted a play yesterday that was similar to one of the plays they ran last weekend that was identical, but it ran far more smoothly timing-wise last year compared to this year. It was sort of a reminder that they just need someone coordinator-wise who pays more attention to the details and commands more respect from the players.

Again, maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't. But I'd rather, if they're going to move on from him, have them try everything before making that call. I mean, as I've said, it would suck to see him succeed elsewhere and for us to continue struggling. Like many others, I enjoyed watching Zappe play and I'm rooting for him to continue to grow, since there's obviously zero downside there. They've got plenty of time there and by next year, they'll have seen enough in camp and in practice to know what they have if Mac struggles.

But again, I feel like we just need a little more patience. Some people say they've seen enough to know he's not the guy. I'm walking away from this season feeling like every week has just been an empty outing where I'm left wanting more, not knowing anything really more than the week before.

He's obviously not an elite QB like Allen or Mahomes. But if he can be smart with the football and make the plays they need him to, that might be enough as they continue evaluating their options. Amazing guys are rare, so this is probably going to be a more painful process than most of us are ready to admit.

As I've said, it's definitely been an odd year, and it's still hard to believe we've still got two more weeks left.

 

[Ian]

Mac was 2-3 for 19 yards that game.

Patriots 14-10 Bills (Dec 6, 2021) Final Score - ESPN

Game summary of the New England Patriots vs. Buffalo Bills NFL game, final score 14-10, from December 6, 2021 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

That's correct. If you add his normal attempts and yards per game for that game, then the numbers are much closer. That game was an outlier and he hasn't been the same player since.

You can't really hold that against him. That's like saying his overall season stats for 2021 should have been higher but they didn't let him throw the football that game. Pretty sure you guys would kill that one as well, because it's just as silly. I mean, @crawhammer is itching to throw out the Jacksonville game (which wasn't included in that) just because he feels it skews the total and Jones' solid play that game shouldn't matter. Pretty sure if Mac threw 3 INTs in that game, he'd instead be just fine with those numbers being part of it, and he'd be all over it. Not exactly a fair argument.

Part of the improvement I was pointing out was also the fewer turnovers over the same span, which was a point of the season where he obviously had quite a few last year.

Again, as I told @JR52 it wasn't meant to be a big revelation, just something I noticed as I was messing around with it.

And @State, you can go here and look at any game you want, any parameter, etc - you don't need ESPN

2021 Advanced New England Patriots Stats | Sortable 3rd Down, Red Zone Passing and Rushing Patriots Stats.

The Best Patriots Stats Source with sortable 2021 3rd Down, Red Zone Passing and Rushing Stats for this season.

www.patsfans.com

 

[venecol]

I disagree with your posts. There's plenty of blame pie to go around when it comes to the offense. Matt and Judge (and BB) deserve a lot of more of it than a second year QB trying to find his footing in this league.

Your position is that Mac's (5-7) regression is a direct correlation to Patricia's coaching. However, we witnessed Zappe (2-1) under the same coaching play pretty damn good (>100 rating). In fact, we've seen Mac have some pretty good play against MIN (119.8) and in the 2nd half of the CIN game (105.6). Was that performance in spite of Patricia's play calling?

That tells me that the offensive coaching / schemes can work. There's got to be a reason why we haven't been playing consistently under the same coaching. It has to be the players. Not just Mac. All of them. Receivers running wrong routes, dropping passes. RBs fumbling balls. OL getting called for penalties or allowing pressure. QB not making good decisions, holding the ball too long, taking sacks, missing open receivers, etc.

As far as this second year QB nonsense, he's no longer a rookie. He's a 1st Round veteran QB. He had zero competition in TC. He took 100% of the snaps with 1st team. He was in on all the meetings, discussed concepts and schemes. He was part of all of it. They didn't keep this all in a black box and surprised him with it on opening day. He was also the most NFL ready QB coming out of college, not some product of a Div III team out of Bemidji State. He's wicked smart, w/ 4.0 in 2 degrees.

I've posted stats of how much QBs improved in their 2nd season that were not NFL ready or that had new (poor) coaching and schemes. They both improved despite these challenges.

Does Bill, Patricia, Judge, et al deserve blame for how poor these players are going about executing their assignments? Absolutely. But that in and of itself doesn't excuse the players for playing poorly.

I can say the exact same thing about the Bucs who have the GOAT at QB. They're playing like sh*t just like our players are playing like sh*t.

 

[venecol]

You don't think our players are playing like sh*t? Ok I guess we disagree.

 

[Ian]

You don't think our players are playing like sh*t? Ok I guess we disagree.

They are, but the "He's a 1st Round veteran QB" is probably the rub. Again, he's still in a second season where he missed a month to injury and faced a tough situation when he got back after he didn't get much of a chance at redemption as people were ready to kick him aside at the first moment of adversity.

Again, you could make that argument against him midway into next season, which would be fair if he's not any better. He's not without blame, but tough to just dismiss him in that way given the context around how things have played out this year.

 

[venecol]

They are, but the "He's a 1st Round veteran QB" is probably the rub. Again, he's still in a second season where he missed a month to injury and faced a tough situation when he got back after he didn't get much of a chance at redemption as people were ready to kick him aside at the first moment of adversity.

Again, you could make that argument against him midway into next season, which would be fair if he's not any better. He's not without blame, but tough to just dismiss him in that way given the context around how things have played out this year.

I'm more focused on the first 3 games than anything. Fresh out of TC. Spent offseason working out with his homies and House. Lost body fat. No drama or competition like w/ Cam. He was the sh*t. The numero Uno.

The game plan and schemes in those 3 games were totally different then they are now. Mac was top of the league in air yards. They had a plan. He was part of it. He choked. You can say he's young, trying to find his footing and the rest if that. I say he's an NFL QB making $15.6M fully guaranteed, you better perform. It's that simple for me really. He's no longer a rookie, he's a veteran. You need to perform like one.

 

[crawhammer]

I feel like we just need a little more patience.

Mac has two weeks to do something dramatic. Beating Miami without Tua is a most. I don't care how many points Miami scores, Mac has to put up more points than Bridgewater.

Then he has to win at Buffalo vs Josh Allen. It's about time Mac steps it up head-to-head with an elite quarterback so it may as well be against the guy who theoretically will be in his way for the next decade.

Mac needs to be better. 8-9 isn't good enough. He's getting significantly outplayed by several other young quarterbacks in the league. He's not prolific. He's not clutch. He's not beating talented quarterbacks head-to-head. I don't see the intangibles either. Now he's had an accumulation of on-field incidents that bring his character into question.

Every weekend we see quarterbacks around the league leading their teams to improbable wins. Even a 45-year-old Brady who looks like he's running on fumes at times is still pulling off dramatic comebacks. Mac has done nothing in this regard. Only one comeback win against a 4-win Houston Texans.

We can sit back and whine about Patricia and the dreadful coaching or perhaps we can expect more from our 1st round quarterback. He needs to step up his game enough to close out the season with something special.

If Mac lays an egg against Miami in a loss then I want Zappe in week 18. Or if Mac lays an egg vs Allen in a must-win situation then I want serious consideration of moving in another direction for next season.

 

[archstanton543]

Mac has two weeks to do something dramatic. Beating Miami without Tua is a most. I don't care how many points Miami scores, Mac has to put up more points than Bridgewater.

Then he has to win at Buffalo vs Josh Allen. It's about time Mac steps it up head-to-head with an elite quarterback so it may as well be against the guy who theoretically will be in his way for the next decade.

Mac needs to be better. 8-9 isn't good enough. He's getting significantly outplayed by several other young quarterbacks in the league. He's not prolific. He's not clutch. He's not beating talented quarterbacks head-to-head. I don't see the intangibles either. Now he's had an accumulation of on-field incidents that bring his character into question.

Every weekend we see quarterbacks around the league leading their teams to improbable wins. Even a 45-year-old Brady who looks like he's running on fumes at times is still pulling off dramatic comebacks. Mac has done nothing in this regard. Only one comeback win against a 4-win Houston Texans.

We can sit back and whine about Patricia and the dreadful coaching or perhaps we can expect more from our 1st round quarterback. He needs to step up his game enough to close out the season with something special.

If Mac lays an egg against Miami in a loss then I want Zappe in week 18. Or if Mac lays an egg vs Allen in a must-win situation then I want serious consideration of moving in another direction for next season.

Do those young QB's you mention have real OC's and real QB coaches?

Do you think Mac has leeway to go off script and run the plays he wants? Or does he want to incur the wrath of BB and Matty P? He can only run the plays that are called in from the sideline.

 

[Ian]

I'm more focused on the first 3 games than anything. Fresh out of TC. Spent offseason working out with his homies and House. Lost body fat. No drama or competition like w/ Cam. He was the sh*t. The numero Uno.

The game plan and schemes in those 3 games were totally different then they are now. Mac was top of the league in air yards. They had a plan. He was part of it. He choked. You can say he's young, trying to find his footing and the rest if that. I say he's an NFL QB making $15.6M fully guaranteed, you better perform. It's that simple for me really. He's no longer a rookie, he's a veteran. You need to perform like one.

So three games into his second season, you were done with him. Played his rookie season, had a full offseason, new coordinator and both he and his teammates were struggling to execute, yet he should've already be playing at the level of a seasoned vet.

OK. That's all you had to say. That being said, no, with all due respect, I don't think that's fair. Like at all.

 

[Ian]

If Mac lays an egg against Miami in a loss then I want Zappe in week 18. Or

Be sure and pass that along to Bill and let me know how that works out.

if Mac lays an egg vs Allen in a must-win situation then I want serious consideration of moving in another direction for next season.

I think Zappe might be a factor in camp next summer if Mac finishes these next two games poorly. But barring an injury, I don't think we'll see him these next two weeks.

 

[venecol]

So three games into his second season, you were done with him. Played his rookie season, had a full offseason, new coordinator and both he and his teammates were struggling to execute, yet he should've already be playing at the level of a seasoned vet.

OK. That's all you had to say. That being said, no, with all due respect, I don't think that's fair. Like at all.

I never said I was done after 3 games. For the purpose of this discussion, the 1st 3 games was when they rolled out their new offense. He failed to perform. Now we are where we are. I'll watch him closely these last 2 games and hope for a surprise.

 

[venecol]

I can just hear the excuses next season:

1. This is his 3rd year but last season shouldn't count because Patricia so it's really his second.
2. This is his 3rd different OC (if it happens and I'm not convinced) we need to give him another year to find his footing.
3. He was a 1st rounder that went to the pro bowl and got 2 votes for OROY. He was also excellent in college. He has to work out. Right? Let's give him another year.

 

[Ian]

I never said I was done after 3 games. For the purpose of this discussion, the 1st 3 games was when they rolled out their new offense. He failed to perform. Now we are where we are. I'll watch him closely these last 2 games and hope for a surprise.

He really wasn't terrible in that first game:

1) That pick to Parker that bounced off the defender's helmet should have gone like the TD to Agholor a week later (I posted that one in anonther thread). But Parker was being held and also let the defender keep his arms down. First of a few 50/50 balls that didn't go their way.

2) I forgot about the strip sack where he got drilled off the blindside where Brown whiffed on who he was supposed to block.

3) They also got caught on the play where Phillips got hurt and they didn't have the personnel and McDaniel went after them for the TD before the half. That's obviously a 14-point swing and it hurt how they approached the second half down 17-0. Then you had the Agholor fumble late. So hard to put that game entirely on Mac.

Pittsburgh, the pick to Parker was a throw he didn't get enough on and tried to loft it over but underthrew it, albeit Fitzpatrick made a great play. That was on him, and he obviously lucked out later on one that he almost gave away when he was flushed out. Whatever, he also threw a TD pass and fortunately, they won.

The Ravens game, he actually played relatively well in that one too. I mean, they were up 20-14 before but the turnovers killed them.
The first pick to Parker was on him. The last two, there was the miscommunication to Parker on the one in the end zone, and the one where he got hit trying to make a play to Bourne at the end and got hurt.

Watching them back now, they weren't as ugly as I remember.

But again, getting back to your original point, it's not like they had any momentum coming out of the preseason. The last two games were disasters, and everybody was sort of under the impression that they couldn't possibly be that big of a mess by the time the season started. Part of me thinks the biggest mistake was the offensive line switch of Wynn and Brown, I feel like they should have just left it alone after seeing both guys struggle so badly in the preseason.

Still, whatever. It's about to be Week 17 and it still feels like Week 7. Just a bizarre year.

 

[crawhammer]

Do those young QB's you mention have real OC's and real QB coaches?

Do you think Mac has leeway to go off script and run the plays he wants? Or does he want to incur the wrath of BB and Matty P? He can only run the plays that are called in from the sideline.

Mac needs to play better. It's about time he puts the team his back and delivers a couple of big wins. I'm all done with the excuses.

Be sure and pass that along to Bill and let me know how that works out.

Bill doesn't listen to me. If he had, then Brady would still be here, or we'd be competing for the division with Lamar Jackson.

And if Bill wants my advice now, he can trade Mac in the off-season, resign Brady for 2 years, and develop Zappe as the next guy.

 

[Ian]

I can just hear the excuses next season:

1. This is his 3rd year but last season shouldn't count because Patricia so it's really his second.
2. This is his 3rd different OC (if it happens and I'm not convinced) we need to give him another year to find his footing.
3. He was a 1st rounder that went to the pro bowl and got 2 votes for OROY. He was also excellent in college. He has to work out. Right? Let's give him another year.

And obviously, that won't be the case. You'll probably have a better sense of where they are in the preseason.

Both he and Zappe had a terrible preseason, and Zappe was only a rookie. As I've said repeatedly, he'll get stronger this offseason and they'll likely bring in someone else, which should also make things interesting. If Zappe has a great preseason and also shows them something in practice, and Mac starts looking really bad, Bill will make the change. Keep in mind, he won't want to stay the course for the sake of it, he won't have the same leeway either by then. Not to mention, they'll make the call not to pick up the option since that's usually the season where that decision is based off of.

Most of us who support Mac do so out of patience while trying to understand the context behind what's transpired this year. If he's really playing poorly, at that point, they'll have done their due diligence and all bets are off.

 

[Ian]

And if Bill wants my advice now, he can trade Mac in the off-season, resign Brady for 2 years, and develop Zappe as the next guy.

I hated the move when it happened and vehemently disagreed with it. But that ship has sailed and just have to start trying to move forward toward the future. "It is what it is."