Mac Jones' Last Five Games - 2022 vs 2021

[Ian]

Technically 10-5 in Cassel starts. But that aside, it doesn't alter my point.


We had more information after Cassel's 10-5 season with KC in 2010. You don't ever reassess once you have more data? You made it sound like Cassel ever going 10-5 is some uniquely astonishing feat. He did again soon after with a lesser team and a different HC.

You asked me what I thought in 2008 about how I thought the season would go. Then you told me - after I told you what I thought - I should have felt differently based on what happened later.

 

[venecol]

I think we can all agree that a part of being '"the guy" is being clutch. When the game is on the line, can your QB bring the team back in the 4th quarter and come from behind for a win.

First two playing seasons of these QBs (min. 10 starts):

..................4QC / GWD (# games)

2017 Draft:
Mahomes: 2 / 3 (17)
D Watson: 5 / 5 (22)
Trubisky: 1 / 3 (26)

2018 Draft:
Mayfield: 4 / 5 (29)
Darnold: 3 / 4 (26)
Allen: 6 / 8 (27)
Jackson: 1 / 3 (22)

2019 Draft:
Murray: 4 / 6 (32)
D Jones: 1 / 2 (26)
Minshew: 4 / 4 (20)

2020 Draft:
Burrow: 2 / 3 (26)
Tua: 2 / 4 (21)
Herbert: 6 / 8 (32)
Hurts: 2 / 2 (19)

2021 Draft:
Lawrence: 4 / 4 (32)
Wilson: 2 / 3 (22)
Fields: 1 / 2 (24)
M Jones: 1 / 1 (29)
Mills: 1 / 2 (24)

2022 Draft:
Pickett: 2 / 3 (10)

 

[Ian]

I think we can all agree that a part of being '"the guy" is being clutch. When the game is on the line, can your QB bring the team back in the 4th quarter and come from behind for a win.

First two playing seasons of these QBs (min. 10 starts):

..................4QC / GWD (# games)

2017 Draft:
Mahomes: 2 / 3 (17)
D Watson: 5 / 5 (22)
Trubisky: 1 / 3 (26)

2018 Draft:
Mayfield: 4 / 5 (29)
Darnold: 3 / 4 (26)
Allen: 6 / 8 (27)
Jackson: 1 / 3 (22)

2019 Draft:
Murray: 4 / 6 (32)
D Jones: 1 / 2 (26)
Minshew: 4 / 4 (20)

2020 Draft:
Burrow: 2 / 3 (26)
Tua: 2 / 4 (21)
Herbert: 6 / 8 (32)
Hurts: 2 / 2 (19)

2021 Draft:
Lawrence: 4 / 4 (32)
Wilson: 2 / 3 (22)
Fields: 1 / 2 (24)
M Jones: 1 / 1 (29)
Mills: 1 / 2 (24)

2022 Draft:
Pickett: 2 / 3 (10)

What if in two potential comebacks, the QB takes you down the field but the RB fumbles at the 11yd and 5yd lines, respectively, with one of those coming when they only needed just a FG to win it?

Asking for a friend...

 

[venecol]

What if in two potential comebacks, the QB takes you down the field but the RB fumbles at the 11yd and 5yd lines, respectively, with one of those coming when they only needed just a FG to win it?

Asking for a friend...

I'm sure that only applies to Mac and none of the other 19 QBs listed.

 

[Patsfan177a]

These clowns scream that mac should have tackled or Tripped chandler jones one week, and then crucify him a week later for going low on a defensive player.

Nice observation. I think the reason Mac threw the block on Apple is because of all the criticism he got about the tackle attempt on C Jones the week before.

 

[borg]

LOL, true, and I also used "literally":

lit·er·al·ly
adverb
in a literal manner or sense; exactly.

My mistake.

I sat in on a deposition for a drunk driving case years ago (my father was the arbitrator) and the attorneys went back and forth for 15 minutes arguing the meaning of "a couple" as in "Yeah, I only had a couple of drinks that night".
The plaintiff's attorney tried every tactic to get the defendant to affirm that "a couple" specifically equated to "two".
The defendant's attorney refused to allow his client to utter any other words except "a couple".
Finally, the plaintiff's attorney pulls out his Meriam Websters softcover dictionary from his suitcase and read Websters' definition of "couple".
The group then mutually agreed that a couple equaled two and the defendant soon revised his story "Yeah, I might of had two or three drinks that night, I'm not sure."
So they debated "was it two or was it three" for a half hour then broke for lunch.

 

[venecol]

I sat in on a deposition for a drunk driving lawsuit years ago (my father was the arbitrator) and the attorneys went back and forth for 15 minutes arguing the meaning of "a couple" as in "Yeah, I only had a couple of drinks that night".
The plaintiff's attorney tried every tactic to get the defendant to affirm that "a couple" specifically equated to "two".
The defendant's attorney refused to allow his client to utter any other words except "a couple".
Finally, the plaintiff's attorney pulls out his Meriam Websters softcover dictionary from his suitcase and read Websters' definition of "couple".
The group then mutually agreed that a couple equaled two and the defendant soon revised his story "Yeah, I might of had two or three drinks that night, I'm not sure."
So they debated "was it two or was it three" for a half hour then broke for lunch.

A guy walks into an Engineer's office and asks: what is 2 + 2.
Engineer: 4.

Same guy walks into an Attorney's office and asks: what is 2 + 2.
Attorney: what do you want it to be?

 

[Patsfan177a]

I'm sure that only applies to Mac and none of the other 19 QBs listed.

Yeah, closer examination might just be interesting. I think a better metric would be how many 4th Qtr drives to take the lead (even late 4th) has a QB accomplished. The Raiders game for instance. How many times did 1 guy take the team down the field and take the lead only to have the defense give it up whereas another guy did exactly the same and had his defense hold off. Same performance, different stats for the QBs.

 

[Ian]

Yeah, closer examination might just be interesting. I think a better metric would be how many 4th Qtr drives to take the lead (even late 4th) has a QB accomplished. The Raiders game for instance. How many times did 1 guy take the team down the field and take the lead only to have the defense give it up whereas another guy did exactly the same and had his defense hold off. Same performance, different stats for the QBs.

@venecol will love that one, because I can think of three Super Bowls where that happened and that also shouldn’t be held against that QB.

 

[jdlboot14]

So the big ticket FA QB's this offseason are below.
Are there any that you think are genuinely affordable and sensible for the Pats, that would be better than sticking with Mac with 2 more years on his rookie deal (with a presumed new OC and system)
Jackson - FA - (likely stays in BAL, breaks the bank)
Brady - FA - (would never come back to Pats, more likely he stays in TB if he doesn't retire)
Jimmy G - FA - (open season, Titans & Colts & Raiders make a lot of sense)
G. Smith - FA - (Should stay in Seattle, deserves his shot)
Carr - Trade - (Raiders move proves 0% chance he's staying in LV)
M. White - FA - (likely stays with the Jets, if they fully move on from Wilson)
Mayfield - FA - (maybe gets a real shot to stay with LAR)
Darnold - FA - (not much interest, someones backup)
Heineke - FA - (could get a shot to compete somewhere)

Teams looking for a new QB (Jets, Titans, Colts, Texans, Raiders, Giants, Commanders, Panthers, Saints, Falcons?, Rams?, Bucs?)

 

[venecol]

@venecol will love that one, because I can think of three Super Bowls where that happened and that also shouldn’t be held against that QB.

You're not talking about the QB with the most 4QC/GWD in NFL history are you? Lol

That's my point. You only get one of those when it actually happens. There's no "almost" 4QCs stats. I think that looking at that list, you see guys like Darnold getting 3/4 in his 1st two seasons yet we already know he's not the guy. That's a little disturbing.

 

[Ian]

You're not talking about the QB with the most 4QC/GWD in NFL history are you? Lol

That's my point. You only get one of those when it actually happens. There's no "almost" 4QCs stats. I think that looking at that list, you see guys like Darnold getting 3/4 in his 1st two seasons yet we already know he's not the guy. That's a little disturbing.

The one with the most should be 10-0 in Super Bowls...but I digress.

 

[venecol]

The one with the most should be 10-0 in Super Bowls...but I digress.

I get your point, but it's not like the D didn't score a TD in that Raiders game, so they kinda did help. Same goes for the CIN game.

 

[Ian]

I get your point, but it's not like the D didn't score a TD in that Raiders game, so they kinda did help. Same goes for the CIN game.

I was talking about the opener last year against Miami and the Cincinnati game.

 

[venecol]

I was talking about the opener last year against Miami and the Cincinnati game.

Where MIA forced a fumble on the goal line? It was a good defensive play. This past CIN game? Again, their D forced a fumble. We can quibble over non-called penalties I suppose, but that's a deep dive into unlimited conjecture and subjectivity.

My list was based on actual stats from pro football reference. I didn't do an exhaustive evaluation of every single 4QC or GWD. I didn't independently confirm them, just took them at face value. Is there context behind every GWD or almost GWD? Sure, I suppose so. We can agree on that.

 

[Ian]

Where MIA forced a fumble on the goal line? It was a good defensive play. This past CIN game? Again, their D forced a fumble. We can quibble over non-called penalties I suppose, but that's a deep dive into unlimited conjecture and subjectivity.

My list was based on actual stats from pro football reference. I didn't do an exhaustive evaluation of every single 4QC or GWD. I didn't independently confirm them, just took them at face value. Is there context behind every GWD or almost GWD? Sure, I suppose so. We can agree on that.

Yes, I meant that if Harris doesn't fumble, they potentially kick a field goal and win. If Stevenson doesn't fumble, it's possible they score a TD and win.

Obviously, they didn't, but he had them in position in at least two games I could think of where he didn't turn it over at the end or not make a play. I know you don't like Mac so it will be a "but they didn't" type of situation. However, to your main point - before you reply and shoot it down - the QB put them in a position to win the game, which is all you can ask for. I'll take that over a game-ending interception.

 

[venecol]

Yes, I meant that if Harris doesn't fumble, they potentially kick a field goal and win. If Stevenson doesn't fumble, it's possible they score a TD and win.

Obviously, they didn't, but he had them in position in at least two games I could think of where he didn't turn it over at the end or not make a play. I know you don't like Mac so it will be a "but they didn't" type of situation. However, to your main point - before you reply and shoot it down - the QB put them in a position to win the game, which is all you can ask for. I'll take that over a game-ending interception.

Ian, it's not that I don't "like" Mac. I've seen enough that I just don't think he's "the guy." Maybe that's an unfair assessment given he hasn't finished his 2nd season yet. I accept that level of criticism but for me, he just hasn't shown enough on the field to make me a believer. Nvm about his body language and histrionics which just show a lack of confidence.

I do appreciate you for not labeling me a "Mac-hater" though.

BTW, I haven't entirely given up on Mac. There's two huge games left. Let's see how he handles them. I can be convinced.

 

[Triumph]

That's not true, and obviously, I was here during that debate - just on another server and I didn't know then what I know now where I would've been able to preserve it.

Some of the current Patsfans powers that be consider anti Mac rhetoric trolling. The Trolls come out en masse in the GDT. If youre wanting the whole Patriots team to win, well that's Troll behavior and sticking with Mac and losing is how the real fans do it.

I was on AOL in 2001 and the QB situations are eerily similar. Despite his erratic play, a very large contingent of fans did not want to change from Bledsoe. They stuck to him like gum and offered every excuse imaginable as to why he wasn't the problem. I disagreed along with the minority of fans who wanted better. We had seen enough to know that Bledsoe was not the answer. Just like now, Mac is not the answer.

It just so happens that I was at the 2001 NE vs Cincinnati game in 2001 prior to 911. I saw firsthand how inconsistent Bledsoe was. He would throw a dart to Terry Glenn for a big gain and then throw 3 passes off target in the dirt or at the pretzel vendor.

Inconsistency is another common trait that Bledsoe and Mac Jones share. Though Mac is a great dink and dunker where Bledsoe had a better long ball.

Take a gander at Bledsoe vs Cincinnati 2001. New England Patriots at Cincinnati Bengals - September 9th, 2001 | Pro-Football-Reference.com
NE 5 for 15 on 3rd down.
4 sacks
NE 5 drives ending in a punt
8 of 11 NE drives lasted 2:37 or less. 72% of NEs drives stalled out producing nothing.

You could pin Mac Jones name to this mess and get away with it because his fingerprints are all over a dozen NE games just like this. Not only this season where Patricia is being blamed, but last season too. Specifically vs Buffalo.

Yes, the board was split, but the length of his injury (significantly longer than Mac's) and where the team was headed made the decision to stay with Brady easier for those of us - myself included - to be O.K. with it. You also had a 5-11 season the year before where Drew wasn't great and a not-so-great showing to start the season in two games in 2001. Brady also reportedly looked better in practice back then as well.

Bledsoe had a new OC in 2000. Did anyone think to blame Charlie Weis?

Why would the Pats give Bledsoe that huge contract if they thought he would not be around a few years.

Again, also a different scenario. 2000 Brady wasn't ready. 2001 Brady was, and that's why he was the back-up at the start of the season and in that position to begin with. Zappe could very well push Jones for the job next year. But you don't cast aside a kid who won 10 games the year before and is only in his second season without at least letting him work through adversity.

Zappe is ready and undefeated in NFL starts.

His numbers are better than Jones. 2022 New England Patriots Rosters, Stats, Schedule, Team Draftees, Injury Reports | Pro-Football-Reference.com: Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com Nobody is casting old Mac aside. If he does not move the offense these last 2 games then he should be removed and replaced with Zappe. Mac does not deserve to play and throw everyone's season away. In 2023 Mac will have a fair chance to keep his job.

 

[Ian]

Bledsoe had a new OC in 2000. Did anyone think to blame Charlie Weis?

They tried multiple OC's with Bledsoe...none ever worked out. So yeah, tough to argue that. At the same time, I don't recall WRs running into each other either ... so there's that.

Why would the Pats give Bledsoe that huge contract if they thought he would not be around a few years.

They obviously had planned on keeping him.

Zappe is ready and undefeated in NFL starts.

His numbers are better than Jones. 2022 New England Patriots Rosters, Stats, Schedule, Team Draftees, Injury Reports | Pro-Football-Reference.com: Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com Nobody is casting old Mac aside. If he does not move the offense these last 2 games then he should be removed and replaced with Zappe. Mac does not deserve to play and throw everyone's season away. In 2023 Mac will have a fair chance to keep his job.

They're not starting Zappe - obviously, Mac will get the nod this week. I think they'll ride that train through the offseason and then see how it goes. I do think they'll get him help this offseason and potentially even target a #1 WR, and then see how things go from there. It's still possible Zappe could push him in camp, who knows. But I don't think we'll see him again over these final two games, and probably not for the playoffs, either.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

I wouldn't say Bledsoe wasn't the guy, he got us to a super bowl that special teams blew, it's just that Brady was better, BB saw it in practice and when he played a few games with Bledsoe out some of us fans saw it. If TB was never drafted, maybe BB brings us to a super bowl or two with Bledsoe, we'll never know. Mac isn't TB, no one is but he could be good enough to get us to a super bowl. I'm sure BB knows more than us at this point, if he thinks he can get a better QB, he will.