Is this the cliff that Max Kellerman has been talking about? Or are the receivers just that bad?

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skinnydog

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
There are a lot of issues, but this is probably the worst group of TEs in the league. None of them draw coverage from wide receivers or RBs . . . ever.
 

KontradictioN

Probably the nicest guy on the forum
PatsFans.com Supporter
Probably how Kellerman really feels about his cliff talk in real life...

 

jmt57

Moderator
Staff member
Problem is the offensive line, no Develin, and no suitable replacement at TE.

Just look at the running game (or lack thereof) and deterioration of the production from James White and Sony Michel.

No Josh Gordon (or AB, or D Thomas) is close behind though in terms of ranking the problems.
 

UptownPatsFan

Standin' Pat
Hell nah. Put some capable WRs/TEs out there, then if he continues to struggle...there’s your cliff (I.E 2015 Manning). He’s currently dealing with various personnel issues.

-Revolving door at WR/TE at age 42 (Midseason)
-Rookie WRs
-No Gronk, Dev
-3rd/4th string C
-No running game
-Etc

No, Brady himself hasn’t been perfect. However, he is still a championship level QB; no doubt in my mind. The media just needs to build a narrative every season, which keeps the viewer/consumer (you/I) interested...and damnit, it’s working.
 
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LJRomanoff

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
There are a lot of issues, but this is probably the worst group of TEs in the league. None of them draw coverage from wide receivers or RBs . . . ever.
Hyperbole isn't helpful. There are probably eight or nine teams with TEs as bad or worse.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Hyperbole isn't helpful. There are probably eight or nine teams with TEs as bad or worse.
I would be surprised if this isn’t one of the very worst. Sure, teams might have lower measured production from TEs based on stats. Problem is the Pats TEs aren’t just bad as pass catchers; they are liabilities as blockers too. I don’t have time to comb through 31 teams but would be surprised if more than a couple of teams have worse TEs, and I’m really trying to avoid hyperbole here.
 

stcjones

Pro Bowl Player
There are a lot of issues, but this is probably the worst group of TEs in the league. None of them draw coverage from wide receivers or RBs . . . ever.
U are right our TE or lack there of....is one of the most glaring mistakes this year....and has been hurting us a lot....BB whiffed at TE in draft and FA....GO PATS!!!
 

stcjones

Pro Bowl Player
Some decisions by BB this season have been head scratchers too....but have to trust him he is the GOAT coach!!!

Problem is the offensive line, no Develin, and no suitable replacement at TE.

Just look at the running game (or lack thereof) and deterioration of the production from James White and Sony Michel.

No Josh Gordon (or AB, or D Thomas) is close behind though in terms of ranking the problems.
 

fnordcircle

The poster who James White said inspires him.
PatsFans.com Supporter
I don't see much of a drop off in Brady's fire, accuracy, or arm strength.

What I do see a drop off in is his patience and willingness to take a hit. The 'throws a bad pass because he's ducking out of contact' stuff is understandable but the antithesis of young Brady's game.

He's just being too impatient with receivers. You're going to tell me that our skill positions are worse than what we had in 2001? That Antowain, JR, Fauria, Wiggins, Brown, and Patten are better than Sony, White, Burkhead, Edelman, Dorsett and Sanu?

That our defense isn't as good as the defense we had in 2001?

The difference is that Brady's temperament. I'm convinced of it. He's feeling the clock ticking and is pressing too hard and putting too much pressure on rookies and guys who are nowhere near as established as the GREATEST PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE.

He needs to chill and take the pressure off. I'm convinced Meyers saw the hand gesture and second-guessed himself. That Dorsett saw the double move pistol gesture and second-guessed himself. Brady is the undisputed leader of this team he needs to lead these guys in a different way than the frustrated Vet approach he's been taking.

The only cliff here is an emotional one of Brady's own making.
 

cmasspatsfan

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Its 100% the receivers, TBs giving signals and they're not running the right routes, if you listened to ZO during the game he kept bringing it up.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Manning had 9 TDs, 17 INTs in 2015. Brady has 18 TDs and 6 INTs. I think people forget just how steep that Manning cliff was. And Manning had much better and more stable offensive weapons too (just like always.). He got benched when he went 5-20 for 35 yards, 0 TDs and 4 INTs.

It was around this time when his wife started ordering HGH to deal with her unspecified medical condition, and I know Peyton was devastated that her medical history got exposed to the world...imagine his anger when he learned that someone brought her name into a “garbage” story published by the most reputable news outlet in the Middle East. I think part of his decline was caused by devoting his emotional support to his wife’s struggle and prescribed HGH use, which came from a notable sports clinic that secretly supplied famous athletes.
 

LJRomanoff

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
I would be surprised if this isn’t one of the very worst. Sure, teams might have lower measured production from TEs based on stats. Problem is the Pats TEs aren’t just bad as pass catchers; they are liabilities as blockers too. I don’t have time to comb through 31 teams but would be surprised if more than a couple of teams have worse TEs, and I’m really trying to avoid hyperbole here.
I'd say the Bears, Cards, Redskins, Jags, Steelers, Bengals, Dolphins, Bills, and maybe the Browns are as bad or worse. Not to mention the fact that last year's TEs were nearly as bad as this year regarding offensive production - of course they were much better blockers. The lack of adequate blocking is the real issue.
 

Ras-IR Dowling

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Forgive me if we have other threads discussing this but I’ve been thinking about it all day.
I’ve been watching patriots football since I was 7, so all of Brady’s career and I’ve never seen him flustered in the pocket consistently like he is now. He never used to throw the ball in the dirt every other play or consistently throw really bad interceptions. We hold Brady to a high standard because he is the GOAT, I’ve always said if Tom thinks he’s going off a cliff and can’t play at a high level anymore, that’s when he will hang em up. Remember 2013 when he was throwing to Kenbrell Thompkins, Aaron Dobson and Austin collie? It seems like that offense put up better numbers. Remember 2015 when the offensive line gave him almost no time at all in the afc championship? In a hostile environment and we still had a chance to win in the end. It just seems like that magic is gone, I may be wrong and I hope I am wrong but Brady just looks miserable out there.
2015, we were playing a team in Denver with a strong defense and an offense held back by manning who was a shell of himself at the time. Our defense (other than covering Owen Daniels) was solid that day. Plus we still had the best TE in football. Thus we were able to keep the game close and almost get it into OT.
 

PScottman

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
The difference is that Brady's temperament. I'm convinced of it. He's feeling the clock ticking and is pressing too hard and putting too much pressure on rookies and guys who are nowhere near as established as the GREATEST PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE.

He needs to chill and take the pressure off. I'm convinced Meyers saw the hand gesture and second-guessed himself. That Dorsett saw the double move pistol gesture and second-guessed himself. Brady is the undisputed leader of this team he needs to lead these guys in a different way than the frustrated Vet approach he's been taking.

The only cliff here is an emotional one of Brady's own making.
Extremely insightful take here because confidence and trust is a thing - a VERY important thing and right now neither party - the skill players nor the quarterback have any trust in each other nor themselves because of it. That's readily apparent.

Brady is subconsciously (IMHO) looking for Edelman and maybe White as every first read because that's who he trusts. Both those players are always double covered now. So he costs himself time in the pocket just instinctually leading to rushed throws to other receivers and higher pass rush pressure because he's trying too hard to go to the option that's been taken away by the D (in most cases).

The receivers are as you said second guessing every decision. Am I right? Am I wrong? This slows reaction time - which if you're a WR is death. Quick twitch instinct is paramount. These receivers have none. Overthinking...slowing down (literally) to decide if what they're doing is right. All of these players have shown success in their past - so it's not just skill.

I'm firmly of the opinion now that this may be a fatal flaw. Repetitions MIGHT fix it, but that's doubtful because it's not at game speed and they need hundreds of them in this case. A non-football approach (team building exercises) might also contribute, but again that's a camp type approach not something easily replicated during the season.
 
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