Is our ownership being jerks?

[JDSal45]

When these small market teams have shown that they have tried to maximize any potential source of revenue, then and only then will I feel sorry for them. We all kind of laughed when Gillette was built and Ford sponsored the parking lots and each gate and ramp had a different sponsor. McDonalds in a football stadium? Now I think we all, well almost all, understand that Kraft was being a good business man. Brown and Wilson won't even sell the naming rights, ok I can let that slide maybe but you can't tell me that there are no Ford dealers, .com companies, or banks that wouldn't love to get thier names out there in Cincy or Buffalo. They may not get as much as Kraft gets but at least make the attempt. If you look at comparisons of the stadiums (Brown: http://www.bengals.com/stadium/paulbrownstadium.asp, Gillette: http://www.patriots.com/stadium/index.cfm?ac=factchart ) itseems that Brown has more Club seats 7600 to 6000 and Suites 114 to 86. Gillette has a higher capacity 68,756 to 65,535 but regular gates are shared. My philosophy is if your team hadn't sucked for the past 10+ years then you should be getting some good revenue from those Suites. Kraft did it the right way, make a committment to making the team on the field better at the same time put on the full court press to sell that new/better product to fans and businesses. It's simple, fans know when an owner is (Kraft and the Sox Henry group) and is not (Jacobs) out to impove the team. When they sense that committment they stick with it (the Pete Carroll years) and support it financially. Have Brown's revenues gone up since hiring Lewis and this year making the playoffs? I'm willing to bet they have. Indy is near the bottom now but with the new stadium being built I'm also willing to bet they will shoot near the top. Tampa and Green Bay aren't what I'd call big markets but they hold up thier end of the revenues. Tampa? The joke of the league for 20 years? Why? Because new owners made the decision to invest in his team, not rely on NFL welfare.

People keep saying the taxpayers "built the Bengals a stadium"....they didn't. They DID build a stadium. Hamilton County in Ohio owns it however. Yes, the Bengals have the naming rights (which they have not exercised)....but beyond that Hamilton County collects much of the revenues from the stadium...the concessions, part of the luxury boxes, etc.

And the Bengals PAY A LEASE to play there. So yes, its still a good deal for the Bengals. But THEY DO NOT OWN THE ASSET...which in time will be worth hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars. So its only worth so much.

Some are implying the taxpayers actually GAVE a stadium to the Bengals and a lot of the other teams that have publically financed stadiums. That IS NOT THE CASE. The taxpayers paid for it....but they also own it. They don't give it to the teams, despite implications that is the case. I can't think of one case where that has occurred.

J D Sal

 

[JDSal45]

And if it is THAt easy to build a stadiium, why haven't teams done that?? Much easier bilking taxpayers into it??

Well, maybe because under the NFL's G-3 Loan program, which was pushed thru in 1999 by Bob Kraft and he was the first to take advantage of it, the 50% financing, interest free loan is only available to teams in the top 6 media markets, which coincidentally, Boston is the #6 market so the Patriots just barely qualified under the program drawn up by Kraft.

J D Sal

 

[PATSNUTme]

The Krafts didn't build their own stadium, completely. Half of it was financed thru an interest free, let me repeat INTEREST FREE, loan from the NFL. That is paid back from the visiting gate share. You can't get a financing deal like that anywhere else practically.

The other 50% was financed by them. Another $75 million in infrastructure outside the stadium was paid for by Massachusetts.

So they get an asset, at the end of the day, that is worth an untold amount of money for basically 50% of the interest anyone else would have to pay.

J D Sal

But the fact is that they have to pay interest and principal on the loan. The stadium was built for $300,000,000 +. So even at 20 years, that is a chuck of change even ONLY $150,000,000 was financed with interest.

The $75 mil in infrastructure is the reason the parking at he stadium is $35.

I'm not crying poor mouth for the Krafts, but you make it sound as if it's such a great deal compared to the owners who play in publicly financed stadiums.

We can't compare the two unless we know all the cost of the "lease" and the total of payments the Krafts make each year. One thing for sure, the Krafts would have a hell of a time walking away from their stadium vs the "lease" owners.

 

[JDSal45]

But the fact is that they have to pay interest and principal on the loan. The stadium was built for $300,000,000 +. So even at 20 years, that is a chuck of change even ONLY $150,000,000 was financed with interest.

The $75 mil in infrastructure is the reason the parking at he stadium is $35.

I'm not crying poor mouth for the Krafts, but you make it sound as if it's such a great deal compared to the owners who play in publicly financed stadiums.

We can't compare the two unless we know all the cost of the "lease" and the total of payments the Krafts make each year. One thing for sure, the Krafts would have a hell of a time walking away from their stadium vs the "lease" owners.

I'm not saying Kraft isn't paying a big nut of a mortgage each month. $150,000,000 is obviously a big chunk of change. But its a financing deal that is about the most favorable terms, when you consider the NFL loan, a guy taking a mortgage could ever get.

Imagine if someone told you when you were buying a house, hey, know what, we'll give you half and you can pay it back out of some future pooled fund with NO interest!!!

Pretty good deal if you can get it. And, at the end of the day, Kraft will OWN his stadium. A huge asset he only paid interest on half of. It may seem like a great deal to have a city or state build you a stadium, but at the end of the day, you own nothing. You don't have a $500 million dollar asset in your name in 10 years.

As Kraft says "there's a difference between being a renter and owner."

I'd take owning the stadium with sweetheart financing than leasing from some publicly-owned stadium any day of the week.

J D Sal

 

[PATSNUTme]

I'm not saying Kraft isn't paying a big nut of a mortgage each month. $150,000,000 is obviously a big chunk of change. But its a financing deal that is about the most favorable terms, when you consider the NFL loan, a guy taking a mortgage could ever get.

Imagine if someone told you when you were buying a house, hey, know what, we'll give you half and you can pay it back out of some future pooled fund with NO interest!!!

Pretty good deal if you can get it. And, at the end of the day, Kraft will OWN his stadium. A huge asset he only paid interest on half of. It may seem like a great deal to have a city or state build you a stadium, but at the end of the day, you own nothing. You don't have a $500 million dollar asset in your name in 10 years.

As Kraft says "there's a difference between being a renter and owner."

I'd take owning the stadium with sweetheart financing than leasing from some publicly-owned stadium any day of the week.

J D Sal

First do you think the the first $150,000,000 "loan' was a gift? That has to be paid back.

Then there is is the other 'low interest" loan that has to be paid back, both principal and interest.

Then there is maintence and upkeep of the stadium facilities. Does an owner of a team who has a publicly owned stadiium have to do that?

If owning was such a 'sweetheart deal' why then do most owners try to blackmail their cities/areas into building them stadiums. If it was that good a deal, they would be rushing to build it themselves.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

The Krafts didn't build their own stadium, completely. Half of it was financed thru an interest free, let me repeat INTEREST FREE, loan from the NFL. That is paid back from the visiting gate share. You can't get a financing deal like that anywhere else practically.

The other 50% was financed by them. Another $75 million in infrastructure outside the stadium was paid for by Massachusetts.

So they get an asset, at the end of the day, that is worth an untold amount of money for basically 50% of the interest anyone else would have to pay.

J D Sal

So using this thinking, Kraft should try and get a share of the income tax revenue that Massachusetts collects off the millions he pays his players. Afterall they could get that kind of tax base anywhere else.

 

[Pats726]

Well, maybe because under the NFL's G-3 Loan program, which was pushed thru in 1999 by Bob Kraft and he was the first to take advantage of it, the 50% financing, interest free loan is only available to teams in the top 6 media markets, which coincidentally, Boston is the #6 market so the Patriots just barely qualified under the program drawn up by Kraft.

J D Sal

Even with that loan and the financing I find it interesting that
its so easy for Kraft to do. Looking back is always so so much easier and seeing all the advantages of a situation...which was not at all the case when it was proposed and done. At that time, it was viewed as a big gamble and a very risky venture at best. There were many that thought it was not at all the best business move on his part. But there are many johney come latelies who really do not understand much about the history of this franchise and how the team almost ended up in St Louis or many years later, in Hartford.

 

[JDSal45]

First do you think the the first $150,000,000 "loan' was a gift? That has to be paid back.

Then there is is the other 'low interest" loan that has to be paid back, both principal and interest.

Then there is maintence and upkeep of the stadium facilities. Does an owner of a team who has a publicly owned stadiium have to do that?

If owning was such a 'sweetheart deal' why then do most owners try to blackmail their cities/areas into building them stadiums. If it was that good a deal, they would be rushing to build it themselves.

Yes, the loan is paid back out of visiting gate shares WITHOUT interest. A damn good deal.

Look, I'm not saying Kraft is being an ass or has done anything wrong. He's a business man. He has the highest revenue in the league and has risked a lot to reach that level. But, I just think the coverage of how tough he has it is a little slanted at times by the fact we're all Pats fans.

I realize a man's gotta eat. But I'm not too worried about Bob Kraft or his family, no matter what his debt is. He did okay for himself in the stadium deal he got. Not saying anything is wrong with getting a good deal. I just think some of the details of what he got get lost in translation at times.

J D Sal

 

[PATSNUTme]

Yes, the loan is paid back out of visiting gate shares WITHOUT interest. A damn good deal.

Look, I'm not saying Kraft is being an ass or has done anything wrong. He's a business man. He has the highest revenue in the league and has risked a lot to reach that level. But, I just think the coverage of how tough he has it is a little slanted at times by the fact we're all Pats fans.

I realize a man's gotta eat. But I'm not too worried about Bob Kraft or his family, no matter what his debt is. He did okay for himself in the stadium deal he got. Not saying anything is wrong with getting a good deal. I just think some of the details of what he got get lost in translation at times.

J D Sal

Who is saying that Bob Kraft has it tough? I don't think I've said that or seen others say that. We just understand his position and agree with it.

And the question remains, if Krafts way of doing a stadium deal is so "sweet, why have other owners blackmailed their cities/areas to get publicly financed stadiums?

I would think that people like Bidwell would be jumping all over the Kraft sweetheart type deal.

 

[JDSal45]

Who is saying that Bob Kraft has it tough? I don't think I've said that or seen others say that. We just understand his position and agree with it.

And the question remains, if Krafts way of doing a stadium deal is so "sweet, why have other owners blackmailed their cities/areas to get publicly financed stadiums?

I would think that people like Bidwell would be jumping all over the Kraft sweetheart type deal.

Bidwell isn't in a top 6 television market. He can't get the same deal as Kraft under the G-3 program.

J D Sal

 

[flutie2phelan]

You make some good points, JD, and i recognize that in no way are you "bashing" our revered owner. A little less unanimity than we usually find here would be a good thing ... and you provide a thoughtful contrarian voice.

Nevertheless, i find you mistaken when you say:

.... at the end of the day, Kraft will OWN his stadium. A huge asset he only paid interest on half of. It may seem like a great deal to have a city or state build you a stadium, but at the end of the day, you own nothing. You don't have a $500 million dollar asset in your name in 10 years.

J D Sal

If all the stadia were like the Yale Bowl ... or Hahvad Stadium ... or Soldiers Field,
then this assertion would make more sense.

Those few hallowed playgrounds ENDURE. But in postmodern America, large buildings are dynamited or demolished
every day ... to make room for replacements serving the same function
... often with the same owners ... but so much more up-to-date.

Gillette Stadium could be Exhibit A. Kraft owned the old ballyard, too.
How valuable an asset was THAT? ... that he chose to turn it into a parking lot.
Twenty or thirty years on, The Razor too will go under the wrecker's ball ... to make parking for the latest state-of-the-art stadium being erected next door.

The franchise is worth all you say, and more. But not the stadium -
a depreciating asset which almost all of us shall outlive.

postscript - curious, isn't it? ... that Harvard Stadium stands on ... Soldiers Field Road.

 

[JDSal45]

You make some good points, JD, and i recognize that in no way are you "bashing" our revered owner. A little less unanimity than we usually find here would be a good thing ... and you provide a thoughtful contrarian voice.

Nevertheless, i find you mistaken when you say:



If all the stadia were like the Yale Bowl ... or Hahvad Stadium ... or Soldiers Field,
then this assertion would make more sense.

Those few hallowed playgrounds ENDURE. But in postmodern America, large buildings are dynamited or demolished
every day ... to make room for replacements serving the same function
... often with the same owners ... but so much more up-to-date.

Gillette Stadium could be Exhibit A. Kraft owned the old ballyard, too.
How valuable an asset was THAT? ... that he chose to turn it into a parking lot.
Twenty or thirty years on, The Razor too will go under the wrecker's ball ... to make parking for the latest state-of-the-art stadium being erected next door.

The franchise is worth all you say, and more. But not the stadium -
a depreciating asset which almost all of us shall outlive.

postscript - curious, isn't it? ... that Harvard Stadium stands on ... Soldiers Field Road.

I think 20-30 years is a very conservative estimate. Especially for the modern day, better built stadiums like Gillette. But even so, its an asset he can sell at any time if he needed to. Unlike the publically owned stadiums, he owns the land as well.

Like I said, nothing wrong with any of this. And I love Bob Kraft. Best owner we've ever had in New England. But I think Pats fans speak with one voice in such overwhelming numbers, he gets somewhat of a free ride. So, we pay the highest ticket prices in the NFL and we don't complain. Like I said, nothing wrong with it. I buy them and will continue to. I pay for six seats every year, its a big nut to crack. But Kraft has the highest revenues in the league. I don't think he's just barely covering his mortgage, sweetheart or not.

And I don't begrudge him anything. He risked a lot buying the team. But I just don't see it accurately depicted, very often, exactly what the financing deal he got was that people keep referring to as his debt. I'm not saying its not still a lot, but its about the best financing deal I have ever heard of and one not available to 26 of the 32 NFL franchises.

J D Sal

 

[arrellbee]

I think 20-30 years is a very conservative estimate. Especially for the modern day, better built stadiums like Gillette. But even so, its an asset he can sell at any time if he needed to. Unlike the publically owned stadiums, he owns the land as well.

Like I said, nothing wrong with any of this. And I love Bob Kraft. Best owner we've ever had in New England. But I think Pats fans speak with one voice in such overwhelming numbers, he gets somewhat of a free ride. So, we pay the highest ticket prices in the NFL and we don't complain. Like I said, nothing wrong with it. I buy them and will continue to. I pay for six seats every year, its a big nut to crack. But Kraft has the highest revenues in the league. I don't think he's just barely covering his mortgage, sweetheart or not.

And I don't begrudge him anything. He risked a lot buying the team. But I just don't see it accurately depicted, very often, exactly what the financing deal he got was that people keep referring to as his debt. I'm not saying its not still a lot, but its about the best financing deal I have ever heard of and one not available to 26 of the 32 NFL franchises.

J D Sal

Want some heartburn ? If the Patriots charge 'more' than other teams for their seats - tha 'more' gets split 32 ways and Kraft gets 1/32 of it. All those other teams that you may not think are pulling their weight - they are getting a 31/32 of your money. (That doesn't at the moment apply to luxury and corporate seats - but you're probably not buying those seats)

 

[PatsSteve1]

Gillette Stadium could be Exhibit A. Kraft owned the old ballyard, too.
How valuable an asset was THAT? ... that he chose to turn it into a parking lot. Twenty or thirty years on, The Razor too will go under the wrecker's ball ... to make parking for the latest state-of-the-art stadium being erected next door.

The franchise is worth all you say, and more. But not the stadium -
a depreciating asset which almost all of us shall outlive.

postscript - curious, isn't it? ... that Harvard Stadium stands on ... Soldiers Field Road.

* Harvard Stadium was built better.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Bidwell isn't in a top 6 television market. He can't get the same deal as Kraft under the G-3 program.

J D Sal

JD,


Please know what you are talking about before you speak.

The Phoenix metroplitan area is now the fifth largest most populous area in the Country and almost ties for the fourth most populous metropolitan area. And its still growing like mad. Laid out over a map of New England, metropolitan Phoenix is enormous. It would stretch from Springfield to Cape Cod, East to West; and from Hartford to Nashua, North to South.

Because this Bidwell has proved that congenital idiocy breeds true, even over six generations, he has a Team that is last in revenues but still makes millions in profits every year. Its definetly better than ordinary welfare, but that doesn't cover up thae fact that he is inept as all his family before him.

The only smart thing to happen to them is that his great, great, grandfather spent a few bucks on a franchise. He on the other hand has just got the government to build him a domed, retractable roofed, air conditioned stadium for no cost other than $75 million from the G3 NFL monies. So in essence not a thin dime out of his pocket...

Meanwhile for th last couple of decades he has been playing in the splendid Fiesta Bowl, seating over 70,000, but in his inept way, never coming close to selling more than 40-50,000 tickets...

 

[JR4]

Are the top television markets – for what? For people watching evening news?
Or watching Sitcoms or watching NFL football games.
Population alone doesn't determine the market. Does it?

 

[flutie2phelan]

JD,
The Phoenix metroplitan area is now the fifth largest most populous area in the Country and almost ties for the fourth most populous metropolitan area. And its still growing like mad. Laid out over a map of New England, metropolitan Phoenix is enormous. It would stretch from Springfield to Cape Cod, East to West; and from Hartford to Nashua, North to South.

And ... its very busy airport ... once potato fields on the edge of town
... now is plunk in the middle of it all. Luckily for all.

 

[JDSal45]

JD,


Please know what you are talking about before you speak.

The Phoenix metroplitan area is now the fifth largest most populous area in the Country and almost ties for the fourth most populous metropolitan area. And its still growing like mad. Laid out over a map of New England, metropolitan Phoenix is enormous. It would stretch from Springfield to Cape Cod, East to West; and from Hartford to Nashua, North to South.

Because this Bidwell has proved that congenital idiocy breeds true, even over six generations, he has a Team that is last in revenues but still makes millions in profits every year. Its definetly better than ordinary welfare, but that doesn't cover up thae fact that he is inept as all his family before him.

The only smart thing to happen to them is that his great, great, grandfather spent a few bucks on a franchise. He on the other hand has just got the government to build him a domed, retractable roofed, air conditioned stadium for no cost other than $75 million from the G3 NFL monies. So in essence not a thin dime out of his pocket...

Meanwhile for th last couple of decades he has been playing in the splendid Fiesta Bowl, seating over 70,000, but in his inept way, never coming close to selling more than 40-50,000 tickets...

You should follow your own advice.

The G-3 loan program is based on "media markets" as determined by Nielson. It isn't based on "most populous metropolitan area", which is some random category you came up with.

I actually bothered to look it up. Here are the Nielson rankings of media markets:

http://www.nielsenmedia.com/DMAs.html

Phoenix is 14th. Boston is 5th. That is the standard they use. The Cardinals do not qualify for 50% interest free financing under the NFL's G-3 program, as the Patriots did. Which was the only point I made. They may qualify for 34%, but not 50%.

J D Sal