If not Givens then who?

[Box_O_Rocks]

Here is a list of FA WRs courtesy of theredzone.org:

Corey Bradford UFA Texans
David Givens UFA Patriots
David Tyree RFA Giants
Dez White UFA Falcons
Joe Jurevicius UFA Seahawks
Keenan McCardell UFA Chargers
Kelley Washington RFA Bengals
Kevin Curtis RFA Rams
Quincy Morgan UFA Steelers
Shaun McDonald RFA Rams

I know there are some oldsters on this short list. I still think Givens is the best of the bunch for NE's system, his blocking, his ability to step up when teams overplay Branch, his precision route running, and the way he and Tommy share their brains. I wouldn't mind Curtis or McDonald from St. Louis, and White from the Falcons may like working with a real QB.

 

[dryheat44]

While i share your enthusiasm for Randle-El, dryheat ... thinking of him as a game-emergency #3 qb doesn't click. You still can only dress 45 on gameday ... meaning that you'd have to inactivate an 8th position player (which normally would be QB3, with a special dispensation.)

Actually that's the easy part. Cassell could be inactive gamedays. If Brady were to get hurt mid-game, ARE could step in. The rule regarding #3 QBs is that they can play in the 4th quarter, or earlier provided the top 2 QBs don't return. So if we lost Brady early in the game, we would either play ARE until the fourth, or bring in Castle, and lose ARE's services for the rest of the game. If we have enough depth that would be OK. Additionally, I don't know if, in that scenario, ARE couldn't play at all, or couldn't play QB.

It's really not any different than when Tom Tupa was the #3 QB for us during the Parcells years. It's not like ARE would be wasting an active spot..he'd actually be our #3 receiver.

 

[Bill B.]

I hope we resign Givens. Just look at how the Patriot's offensive production went down when he missed some games. When he came back from injury our offense clicked better. Not just for his receiving and blocking, but when he is not in there, opposing defenses double up on Branch. But if he signs with someone else, how about signing Dez White from Atlanta. He's big (6-1, 215) and has been in the league 6 years. He is only 26. I don't think he is a replacement for Givens, but I think he would be a good addition to our receiving corp. And I think he would come relatively cheap. I also would like to see Bam Childress get a chance.

 

[dryheat44]

I disagree with the idea that catching 35 passes as a starting WR is impressive under any circumstances. If you are surpassed by your TE that is not the sign of a good WR.
Their 3rd WR found a way to catch 26, and Ward caught 69.

I put more belief in "If he was better they would get him the ball more" than "they threw it less than other teams".
He caught only 15% of Pittsburghs completed passes. That means if Pitt completed the league average amount of passes, he would have totalled 45.
45 receptions by a starting wide receiver in a balanced offense is puny production.

Except that "threw less than other teams" is a verifiable fact. Pittsburgh attempted 379 passes last year, the fewest in the NFL. As a comparison, New England had 564. Again, those are attempts, not completions. Don't penalize him because he's in an offensive scheme that is run-heavy. If Givens played for the Steelers this year, he probably would have put up roughly the same numbers.

For the record, I'm not advocating ARE to replace Givens. I'm advocating bringing him in as our #3 guy....the new Troy Brown.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I just dont consider that 'excellent' production.
There are other variables in it as well.
The Patriots completed the 6th most passes in the NFL. That would say 'average production' as the #2 receiver would put him 38th among WRs.

I just dont see Givens anything near irreplaceable, and I think many WRs could be plugged into his role and be similarly productive.

Again, I AM NOT KNOCKING Givens. I think his production is fine for a #2 WR. But I dont see is as substantially better than a typical WR BB would consider capable of being a #2.

Seems like you are devaluing Givens compared to other WRs because we have a high number of passes completed as a team - even though we wouldn't if not for givens.

There's no bell curve here - if indeed he's #34 among recievers, assuming every team's #1 reciever can be expected to have a higher number of passes thrown to them, and a higher number of completions than any team's #2, by your own stats, Givens is in the top tier of #2 recievers

One might even make a case that he's a 1A receiver (I wouldn't though)

That being said, Givens is replaceable - but the pickings in FA don't thrill me

You said Givens COULD be preplaced - COULD is the operable word. We know what we have with Givens at #2. We'd be rolling the dice with our #2 receiver if we decided to go in another direction.

That could pay off, could be a wash, or could back fire... could could could.

We know what we have with Givens, and its a top tier #2 receiver. Keeping him should be everyone's top choice - its just a matter of how much you can afford to pay him.

 

[harveyw]

For the record, I'm not advocating ARE to replace Givens. I'm advocating bringing him in as our #3 guy....the new Troy Brown.

Thats one of the best things I have heard all day. I would like Randel El as the #3 - PR/KR but not the number 2.

 

[cubedoggy]

I hope we resign Givens. Just look at how the Patriot's offensive production went down when he missed some games. When he came back from injury our offense clicked better. Not just for his receiving and blocking, but when he is not in there, opposing defenses double up on Branch. But if he signs with someone else, how about signing Dez White from Atlanta. He's big (6-1, 215) and has been in the league 6 years. He is only 26. I don't think he is a replacement for Givens, but I think he would be a good addition to our receiving corp. And I think he would come relatively cheap. I also would like to see Bam Childress get a chance.

I think re-signing Givens should a top priority along w/ Big Sey; however, if the price gets too steep, I'd prefer Kevin Curtis over Dez White. White hasn't really excelled anywhere, and Curtis was money when Holt went down.

I see Bam as a possible Troy replacement, though I'd love to have Troy back for one more go.

 

[Miguel]

I just dont consider that 'excellent' production.
There are other variables in it as well.
The Patriots completed the 6th most passes in the NFL. That would say 'average production' as the #2 receiver would put him 38th among WRs.

Since you said that there are about 80 wideouts capable of starting, using your number of 38th would put Givens in the top half.

He was 34th, and # 38 was only 4 catches behind.

Why am I not surprised that out of the 3 stats I posted you used the receptions stats and not the yardage stats?? The reception stat is the one stat the one that least favors Givens.

The fact that Branch was 15th there would appear to be more catches available for a #2 here than on other teams.

Except that one of Brady's greatest strengths is his ability to distribute the ball.

Do you disagee that the raw numbers need to be interpreted to system, QB, and players surrounding?

No. I happen to think that there are some systems that Givens' numbers would do better. I think that under the Patriots' system the wideouts and tight ends will not have spectacular numbers because of Brady's ability to see the entire field and find the open receiver. Brady's favorite receiver goes by the name of open receiver.

David Pattens #s as the #2 WR here were basically identical to Givens.

Patten had to play in more games than Givens in order to put the same numbers.

I thought Patten was a pretty good #2 and I think Givens is as well.

I just happen to think that Givens is the better player of the two and will get a lot more interest in the free agency market.

I just dont see Givens anything near irreplaceable, and I think many WRs could be plugged into his role and be similarly productive.

I do not think that there are many wideouts as good as Givens. And there will be very few, if any, available in free agency.

I know we disagree on this, and thats fine, but my opinion is what it is.
Givens is a good football player, I hope we keep him. My opinion,which I totally accept could be wrong, is that he will not be highly sought after as a FA.


I hope I am right, so we can keep him, and not have to compete with silly offers.

Perhaps where we disagree is that I think that stats are a product of much more than the ability of the player. I think there are a certain # of catches for a player playing a position on a given team. That number varies depending on the team based on scheme and other players on the field. I think in our system any capable #2 would catch 50-60 passes. Or in other words, when any one of our receivers has been out of action over the past 5 years, someone else usually stepped in and the production remained reasonably consistent. For example, in 2 of the games Givens missed, Tim Dwight stepped in for him as the "#2". He caught 8 passes for 146 yards. (That would equate to 52-949 over the 13 games Givens played) Dwight only caught 11 other passes in the other 14 games this season. I dont think any of us would consider Dwight a good #2, but in 2 of the 3 games Givens missed, Dwight alone made up mostly for his production. (The 3rd was NO where the 2nd leading WR was Davis with 1 for 60, which supports your side)

I think that our biggest difference is that you think that other teams will see as a product of the Patriots' system. I think that the other teams will think that Givens will succeed in their system.

Again, I AM NOT KNOCKING Givens. I think his production is fine for a #2 WR. But I dont see is as substantially better than a typical WR BB would consider capable of being a #2.

I never said that you were knocking Givens. BB is not the only team that will be evaluating Givens.

 

[skri65]

Bill Belichick said it best, "It's not about collecting talent, its about building a team." If bill decides to let givens go, he's gonna pick the guy who FITS the role best, not neccesarily the best overall player. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[FloridaPatsFan]

Bill Belichick said it best, "It's not about collecting talent, its about building a team." If bill decides to let givens go, he's gonna pick the guy who FITS the role best, not neccesarily the best overall player. Just something to keep in mind.

The more I think about it, BB likes players who have versatility. With Randle-El, a guy who can KR/PR/WR and special teams sounds like a BB kind of guy. If he comes cheaper than Givens, If Randle-El is smart enough to understand our schemes, I would not be surprised to see him here next year. But Givens has been great in big games. I think BB/Pioli know that he's a gamer. I would guess that Bethel and Troy have played thier last game for us.

 

[Patjew]

I would HATE to see DG go. He's got all the intangibles- tough, strong, clutch, unselfish. He was the only offensive player who had a good game last week, IMO. When hasn't the guy stood up to tha challenge? There's no (good) stat for that.

 

[dhamz]

I don't get the Randle El thing. I just don't see what anyone sees in him as a replacement for Givens. If we don't bring Givens back, we need to find someone to give us the things he gives us - a little bit bigger, much more physical, possession WR who blocks. Randle El is none of those things.

If we were talking about putting him in the slot and using him as a #3 or 4 WR and a PR I can see him making sense. The odds that another team wouldn't pay him more $ and give him a bigger role than that are slim.

 

[mgteich]

We need a #2 receiver, a kick returner, a punt returner, a #3 receiver, a #4 receiver, and a #5 receiver. Branch is our #1, but could be gone after 2006.
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So we need FOUR players.

I don't think it a matter of Randel El instead of Givens.

We've discussed Moulds,Givens,Randel-El,Dwight,Davis, Brown, and Johnson.

Which would you add to Branch (contracted through 2006 and Childress? Which are the most likely group? I happen to like the combination of
Moulds,Davis,Randel El and Dwight. We;d have two punt returners and two kick returners.
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[Miguel]

Brady's favorite receiver goes by the name of open receiver..

Bump. Didn't a TV analyst say the same thing recently???