PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Content Post Idle thoughts: the "movin' on" edition

This has an opening post with good commentary and information, which we definitely recommend reading.
Status
Not open for further replies.

patfanken

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
16,888
Reaction score
31,475
I really hate Thursday football. It is both dangerous for the players and simply NOT a good product for the fans. The fact we won and seemed to survive this hypocritical money-making scheme is a testament to this team's resiliency and heart. So, let's QUICKLY break down this game and see if we can learn anything from it and then it is "On to Cincinnati".


1. I was thrilled to see that Will McDonald played last night. Not only is he a good edge rusher with a combination of speed, strength and bend, he also has particularly long arms. A perfect test for the infamous "short arm" phenonium. A guy who could either prove or DISPROVE a now tired argument (you can see where this is going, can't you?) that a short-armed OT simply cannot be effective as an OT. And here are the results.

O-solo tackles 1-combined tackle O QB hits O sacks. I didn't immediately find any pressure stat, but I imagine there were a few. I can think of 3 off hand, including one where he seemed to blow by Campbell on an outside speed rush, only to be pushed past Maye at the last minute by Campbell (with those short arms and narrow wingspan). Now, McDonald isn't the best Edge in the league, but he DOES have 7 sacks which would lead our team, and I'd love to have him right now. So, can we FINALLY put this to rest? Will Campbell is a LT period, and our LT search should be spent looking for a suitable back up.


2. With every game Maye plays you cannot help but be impressed with his total "unflappability" and zen-like demeanor. BOY, does this kid have "IT".

It used to be a first or second and 20, and you'd be thinking, "well, this series is over", now you are EXPECTING to make it and see a cool play to boot. All from a kid who can't seem to clear 300 passing yards, a number that was fast becoming the 'mendoza line' for QB's in a game where 35-40 attempts were the norm.

I think he has just a few more tests to pass. a. The come from behind win at the end of the game on a consistent basis. In fact, ANY 4th quarter TDs would be welcome at this point.


3. That's the thing about this run. This aren't like a lot of runs from turnaround teams like ours. We aren't winning all these games because we made some miraculous late game heroics to win one score close games or because the other team gifted us the game. In all but the Bills game, we won from the front and that game was tied only after the BILLS came back to tie it. A few WERE one score games, but those were games where the opposition was trying to come from behind not us. During this run WE are the team playing from ahead and most of those one score games come from garbage time scores, like at TB. We have been simply BETTER than the teams we have faced on that day and professional enough NOT to **** it up.


4. The lack of an intense pass rush IS starting to worry me, and not just a little bit. Now I'm not that upset so much with the bland 4 man rush we ran most of the time last night. Clearly (at least to me), the Edge guys were doing a "controlled" rush in order to keep Fields relatively contained (which it didn't, apparently ending in 64yds rushing), but even when we blitzed, we weren't getting close.

The Barmore and Ponder Sacks were rare occasions of intense pressure. That **** might work against the anemic Jets and that sorry QB and WR group, but not next week. Even at 40, Flacco has proven with HIS WR group, you let him sit back and throw to them all day and you are looking at needing 40+ points just to keep it close.


5. BTW- Think about this. If we HAD gotten some pass rush help the last day of the trade deadline and over the last 2 games he had gotten 2 sacks in limited action, what would be saying about him? We likely would have been patting ourselves on the back for yet ANOTHER great move.

Well, that didn't happen, so what should we be making of Elijah Ponder? Is this a fluke, or do they think he is really developing into a situational pass rusher they can trust provide a consistent presence on the edge. What do you think? WHERE are we going to find that pressure between now and a week from Sunday. If we don't it will be a very entertaining offensive game for the fans.


6. point from the GDT - Hollins' so-called drop, wasn't one. That was a great play by the defender to knock it out before he could bring it in. Just like I would contend that even if Mitchell HAD caught that sideline pass, Gonzo was there in position to knock it out much in the same manner. BTW- Gonzo is so smoothly fast. On that play he was at least 2 full steps behind as the ball was approaching, and suddenly, in what seemed to be just a step or two, there he was in perfect position, side by side, with his arm crashing down between Mitchell's hands. It was positively eerie. He doesn't really "catch up", he just suddenly APPEARS. Watch a replay if you don't believe me.

Also, Diggs wasn't down because he was hurt, he stayed down because he was so pissed at dropping that pass. But what a beautiful ball that was.


7. The worst ball Maye threw was on the long ball to Williams that should have been picked. It was a good lesson though. He put too much air on it, when the ball needed to be thrown with less of an arc like the deep TD pass to Boutte a few weeks ago. A play like this kinda snaps us back to reality that Maye IS just 23 and still has a ton of upside to gain over the next couple of years. Just think about THAT the next time you feel the urge to masturbate.


8. I kind of got excited when I saw Fields run those 2 successful speed options. Somehow, I feel we need to install that play or something like that for Maye. It's a tough play IF you aren't expecting it, or you have prepared for it. And in that vein, I'd like to see Maye move to his left a bit more. I fear we are building up too much of a "roll to the right" thing. Time to break that tendency. More boots or straight sprint outs to the left. And my last thing on my wish list, is a couple of easier shorter throws to Williams to help him get into the flow.


9. Too much negativity is being thrown at Williams. That pass that Maye threw him where he turned the wrong way was something that WILL happen down the road. Eventually he will learn to expect the ball on that side and a slight bit behind him (it was a great ball, like a back shoulder throw) and that will be a catch. But it takes time and reps. I can still remember criticisms much like these directed at Henderson for similar perceived mistakes about 4 or 5 games ago, and BELIEVE me, Henderson STILL has a lot of work to do to get to point where he is maximizing the yardage on every play. We just saw the tip of the iceberg tonight.


10. OK, now I'm going to piss some people off, and I'm sorry, and I want you all to remember that I did spend 8 years coaching at a Catholic school. But sorry, Jesus does NOT endow you personally with super strength so you can play football well, and yet somehow ignores or harms others to improve YOUR lot. If it were true is that a God we'd want to follow.

I'd defend Tre's right to believe whatever he believes, but he does NOT need to subject me to his personal religious beliefs. It makes me uncomfortable as I'm sure it does many others. So, while I'm happy for his spiritual beliefs, and appreciate they help HIM, save your preaching for church please. And sorry if this offended anyone.


11. Cincinnati presents a tougher challenge to us than I think most people think. Even with Flacco, they clearly present the kind of challenge to our Defense, like the kind we will get in the playoffs. It IS just another game we should win, but with that caveat. This is a playoff caliber offense, on the road, so keep that in mind when we come back to discuss this game next week.


12. The funny thing is I almost didn't do this post at all. Like I said at the beginning, I don't like Thursday night football, and while I'm thrilled at the victory and the mini-bye, it's a game I just want to forget and (like the title says), move on.
 
Once again it occurs to me that no other 'machine' idles quite like your 'machine' Ken
 
On to Cincinnati...Jump ball Joe scares me more than Baker did. This game could have booth teams in the 30s in points. Maye could / should get his 300+ game, but I hope he doesn't need to...gimme a Pat's kneel down final drive any day.
 
Good point about intense game TIMELY pass rush. I am at the stage of Show Me but hopeful. (Hope is OK for us fan boys)
Agree with occasional Maye to the Left plays. Opens up more of the field for us & makes enemy defend more square yards.

Tom vs Maye: Tom always threw a hard fastball downfield (except swing passes of course). Receivers adapted to it. Advantage was even elite DBs had a lower % chance of picks. Maye's ball is softer and more catchable. Leads to his higher % completion #s. Downside is elite DBs in the playoffs have higher chance of picks on balls arriving a few hundred milliseconds later. Maye has the arm strength. An offseason coaching point for the young guy.
 
Agree with our pass rush. Seems we need to manufacture pressure with blitzes, and we've tried but the scheme doesn't get there. I saw a few times they employed what looked like a delayed blitz which wasn't even close to getting pressure. This is where I think we miss a more creative DC.
 
Re: Last night's pass rush

Williams sat the entire 2nd half - and the entire defense was on fumes due to the short week around the same time. That was a gutty performance by those kids out there last night, they gave everything in the Tampa game, and they were just out there on pure heart. Zero explosion left from anyone. Barmore, in particular was just completely gutting it out, out there, sacking it up on third downs.

Couldn't be more proud.

Watch how 'vastly improved' the pass rush will be vs. Cincinnati.
 
The pass rush is likely to be their Achilles heel in the playoffs. In all likelihood they are going to have to get very creative to get adequate pressure at crunch time in playoff games.
Those are my thoughts as well. From this point we are what we are and it's not gonna change. So if we want, or rather need to create a consistent pass rush, we will need to be VERY creative.

Maybe the Vikes don't make the playoffs and Flo takes a side trip to Foxboro on his way to Florida, to see his old friend Vrabs and talk just happens to turn to blitz concept and their JUST happens to be a whiteboard nearby...and a projector...
 
I really hate Thursday football. It is both dangerous for the players and simply NOT a good product for the fans. The fact we won and seemed to survive this hypocritical money-making scheme is a testament to this team's resiliency and heart. So, let's QUICKLY break down this game and see if we can learn anything from it and then it is "On to Cincinnati".

1. I was thrilled to see that Will McDonald played last night. Not only is he a good edge rusher with a combination of speed, strength and bend, he also has particularly long arms. A perfect test for the infamous "short arm" phenonium. A guy who could either prove or DISPROVE a now tired argument (you can see where this is going, can't you?) that a short-armed OT simply cannot be effective as an OT. And here are the results.

O-solo tackles 1-combined tackle O QB hits O sacks. I didn't immediately find any pressure stat, but I imagine there were a few. I can think of 3 off hand, including one where he seemed to blow by Campbell on an outside speed rush, only to be pushed past Maye at the last minute by Campbell (with those short arms and narrow wingspan). Now, McDonald isn't the best Edge in the league, but he DOES have 7 sacks which would lead our team, and I'd love to have him right now. So, can we FINALLY put this to rest? Will Campbell is a LT period, and our LT search should be spent looking for a suitable back up.

2. With every game Maye plays you cannot help but be impressed with his total "unflappability" and zen-like demeanor. BOY, does this kid have "IT".

It used to be a first or second and 20, and you'd be thinking, "well, this series is over", now you are EXPECTING to make it and see a cool play to boot. All from a kid who can't seem to clear 300 passing yards, a number that was fast becoming the 'mendoza line' for QB's in a game where 35-40 attempts were the norm.

I think he has just a few more tests to pass. a. The come from behind win at the end of the game on a consistent basis. In fact, ANY 4th quarter TDs would be welcome at this point.

3. That's the thing about this run. This aren't like a lot of runs from turnaround teams like ours. We aren't winning all these games because we made some miraculous late game heroics to win one score close games or because the other team gifted us the game. In all but the Bills game, we won from the front and that game was tied only after the BILLS came back to tie it. A few WERE one score games, but those were games where the opposition was trying to come from behind not us. During this run WE are the team playing from ahead and most of those one score games come from garbage time scores, like at TB. We have been simply BETTER than the teams we have faced on that day and professional enough NOT to **** it up.

4. The lack of an intense pass rush IS starting to worry me, and not just a little bit. Now I'm not that upset so much with the bland 4 man rush we ran most of the time last night. Clearly (at least to me), the Edge guys were doing a "controlled" rush in order to keep Fields relatively contained (which it didn't, apparently ending in 64yds rushing), but even when we blitzed, we weren't getting close.

The Barmore and Ponder Sacks were rare occasions of intense pressure. That **** might work against the anemic Jets and that sorry QB and WR group, but not next week. Even at 40, Flacco has proven with HIS WR group, you let him sit back and throw to them all day and you are looking at needing 40+ points just to keep it close.

5. BTW- Think about this. If we HAD gotten some pass rush help the last day of the trade deadline and over the last 2 games he had gotten 2 sacks in limited action, what would be saying about him? We likely would have been patting ourselves on the back for yet ANOTHER great move.

Well, that didn't happen, so what should we be making of Elijah Ponder? Is this a fluke, or do they think he is really developing into a situational pass rusher they can trust provide a consistent presence on the edge. What do you think? WHERE are we going to find that pressure between now and a week from Sunday. If we don't it will be a very entertaining offensive game for the fans.

6. point from the GDT - Hollins' so-called drop, wasn't one. That was a great play by the defender to knock it out before he could bring it in. Just like I would contend that even if Mitchell HAD caught that sideline pass, Gonzo was there in position to knock it out much in the same manner. BTW- Gonzo is so smoothly fast. On that play he was at least 2 full steps behind as the ball was approaching, and suddenly, in what seemed to be just a step or two, there he was in perfect position, side by side, with his arm crashing down between Mitchell's hands. It was positively eerie. He doesn't really "catch up", he just suddenly APPEARS. Watch a replay if you don't believe me.

Also, Diggs wasn't down because he was hurt, he stayed down because he was so pissed at dropping that pass. But what a beautiful ball that was.

7. The worst ball Maye threw was on the long ball to Williams that should have been picked. It was a good lesson though. He put too much air on it, when the ball needed to be thrown with less of an arc like the deep TD pass to Boutte a few weeks ago. A play like this kinda snaps us back to reality that Maye IS just 23 and still has a ton of upside to gain over the next couple of years. Just think about THAT the next time you feel the urge to masturbate.

8. I kind of got excited when I saw Fields run those 2 successful speed options. Somehow, I feel we need to install that play or something like that for Maye. It's a tough play IF you aren't expecting it, or you have prepared for it. And in that vein, I'd like to see Maye move to his left a bit more. I fear we are building up too much of a "roll to the right" thing. Time to break that tendency. More boots or straight sprint outs to the left. And my last thing on my wish list, is a couple of easier shorter throws to Williams to help him get into the flow.

9. Too much negativity is being thrown at Williams. That pass that Maye threw him where he turned the wrong way was something that WILL happen down the road. Eventually he will learn to expect the ball on that side and a slight bit behind him (it was a great ball, like a back shoulder throw) and that will be a catch. But it takes time and reps. I can still remember criticisms much like these directed at Henderson for similar perceived mistakes about 4 or 5 games ago, and BELIEVE me, Henderson STILL has a lot of work to do to get to point where he is maximizing the yardage on every play. We just saw the tip of the iceberg tonight.

10. OK, now I'm going to piss some people off, and I'm sorry, and I want you all to remember that I did spend 8 years coaching at a Catholic school. But sorry, Jesus does NOT endow you personally with super strength so you can play football well, and yet somehow ignores or harms others to improve YOUR lot. If it were true is that a God we'd want to follow.

I'd defend Tre's right to believe whatever he believes, but he does NOT need to subject me to his personal religious beliefs. It makes me uncomfortable as I'm sure it does many others. So, while I'm happy for his spiritual beliefs, and appreciate they help HIM, save your preaching for church please. And sorry if this offended anyone.

11. Cincinnati presents a tougher challenge to us than I think most people think. Even with Flacco, they clearly present the kind of challenge to our Defense, like the kind we will get in the playoffs. It IS just another game we should win, but with that caveat. This is a playoff caliber offense, on the road, so keep that in mind when we come back to discuss this game next week.

12. The funny thing is I almost didn't do this post at all. Like I said at the beginning, I don't like Thursday night football, and while I'm thrilled at the victory and the mini-bye, it's a game I just want to forget and (like the title says), move on.

Regarding #4, I was surprised to see that on the last 1-2 defense series, the defense abandoned containment and went after Fields aggressively which of course allowed him to squirt out for sizable gains. Not sure what Kuhr was up to at that point because there wasn't even an assigned spy to check his rush.

What was interesting about the Jets defense strategy was that they chose to play 7-8 men zone on Maye despite their tendency to play man coverage, and this did test Maye's patience and his willingness to check down to a mundane pass. If other teams sense that Maye hates taking off his superhero cape, I think we should expect to see a lot more of this borderline prevent package.

I also think the Williams hate is unwarranted. Not only is he a rookie, but he's also at the bottom of the depth chart and is getting limited opportunities, even with Boutte out. As has been said so many times, there is no substitute for actual game reps. And I am sure that he is frustrated with this as well, but he is just going to have to bid his time in a crowded receivers room.
 
Regarding #4, I was surprised to see that on the last 1-2 defense series, the defense abandoned containment and went after Fields aggressively which of course allowed him to squirt out for sizable gains. Not sure what Kuhr was up to at that point because there wasn't even an assigned spy to check his rush.

What was interesting about the Jets defense strategy was that they chose to play 7-8 men zone on Maye despite their tendency to play man coverage, and this did test Maye's patience and his willingness to check down to a mundane pass. If other teams sense that Maye hates taking off his superhero cape, I think we should expect to see a lot more of this borderline prevent package.

I also think the Williams hate is unwarranted. Not only is he a rookie, but he's also at the bottom of the depth chart and is getting limited opportunities, even with Boutte out. As has been said so many times, there is no substitute for actual game reps. And I am sure that he is frustrated with this as well, but he is just going to have to bid his time in a crowded receivers room.
And Williams like Chism was not getting many reps if any with Maye in TC.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: PP2
if we are going to be critical, the clock management to end the half was abysmal. zero urgency. we saw Diggs make a catch, run to the middle of the field to hand the ball to the ref to spot the ball, and no one on offense was near him, nor ready. wtf? Vrabel, McD, Maye. zero urgency. then Borregales misses from 44, rather than making one from in closer, or trying for 7. Pats easily left 60+ seconds on the clock.
3 and out to open the 3rd qtr.
Jets fumble at their own 15
Pats only able to get a FG
they could have won this game by the mid 3rd quarter, rested some players on a short week.

needs to be better
 
If a player wants to thank Christ or his parents or his wife or anyone else and it bothers you get off your asz and turn the tv off. Come on man you are a grown up who cares. Otherwise great write up as usual.
 
I think Williams struggles were based one two things. First, he is a rookie learning a new system. Second, he has not had enough first team reps with Drake to establish the chemistry needed to know where Drake will put that ball. Its not a talent issues. Its reps and knowledge. He will be just fine.

Regarding Trey always talking about his faith, Ken just grow up. The problem is not him. Its you. Its a free country and he has every right to practice his faith. No one cares is you don't want to hear it. Change the channel or fast forward the video.
 
if we are going to be critical, the clock management to end the half was abysmal. zero urgency.

The level of fear some coaches are exhibiting inside of 2 minutes is mind-bottling.
Especially against the most anemic passing attack in the NFL.
NE wasn't facing Mahomes.

#LetDrakeCook
 
we saw Diggs make a catch, run to the middle of the field to hand the ball to the ref to spot the ball, and no one on offense was near him, nor ready. wtf? Vrabel, McD, Maye.

Vrabel had already called timeout.
 
It will be game 12 and almost thanksgiving and we STILL haven't seen a true series of "hurry up" offense. Brady was so effective using that offense, especially against teams with big pass rushes.

We got to it for no apparent reason, just suddenly breaking into the hurry up, and then the next go back to the huddle. I love it as a strategy for keeping defenses off balance and tiring out the DL and speed rushers.

I understand why they might have not done it before, not trying to overload Maye, but I'm hoping that after this mini-bye, or at latest the actual bye, we will see this particular strategy play out
 
Did anyone else notice & think the Jesters were punching & ripping at the ball excessively? Sometimes to the detriment of tackling.

It felt to me like they studied that early games Henderson tape and Pitt tape and said; ‘this is the only way we can steal this game.’ Tried to replicate it.

Good coaching that the NE ball carriers all seemed to get the message. I really noticed Diggs protecting w 2 hands as well as the RBs.
Note sure if they walked into the game knowing that could be a problem or adjusted as they saw it, or just now have good fundamentals (that would be best of all possible worlds)
 
It will be game 12 and almost thanksgiving and we STILL haven't seen a true series of "hurry up" offense. Brady was so effective using that offense, especially against teams with big pass rushes.

We got to it for no apparent reason, just suddenly breaking into the hurry up, and then the next go back to the huddle. I love it as a strategy for keeping defenses off balance and tiring out the DL and speed rushers.

I understand why they might have not done it before, not trying to overload Maye, but I'm hoping that after this mini-bye, or at latest the actual bye, we will see this particular strategy play out

Aside from you answering your own question. I do not want to see us show that particular card unless in a critical game, such as the Bills game if they should happen to close the distance.

I'd rather we keep that ace up our sleeves until the playoffs.
 
I'm not a fan of the religious, non-answers to football questions either.
 
If Williams isn't "on the same page" as Maye, then perhaps this is an indictment of the other QBs on the roster not throwing back shoulder in training camp or Williams being a slow learner. Back shoulder throws are now common practice in the NFL against corners having front-side leverage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 6 – A Week Before the Draft
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/13
Patriots News 04-12, What To Watch For In The NFL Draft
MORSE: Pre-Draft Patriots News and Notes
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 5
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 5
Mark Morse
2 weeks ago
Patriots Part Ways with Another Linebacker as Offseason Roster Shake-Up Continues
Patriots News 04-05, Mock Draft 2.0, Patriots Look For OL Depth
MORSE: 18 Game Schedule and Other Patriots Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Mike Vrabel Press Conference at the League Meetings 3/31
MORSE: Smokescreens and Misinformation Leading Up to Patriots Draft
Back
Top