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Content Post "I am....inevitable" The power of TO's in the NFL


This has an opening post with good commentary and information, which we definitely recommend reading.

patfanken

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In quoting a guy who had the power to wipe out half the UNIVERSE, I was just overstating a fact that I have been carping about for years. In my humble opinion, at team's TO ratio (Plus/Minus) is the best indicator of how a team is doing.

Disclaimer: NO single stat will tell the absolute true story in a game of football. Every stat needs to be viewed within the CONTEXT of the game. TO's are just the same. A pick or fumble recovery in a game you are down by 3 scores late in the game means nothing really. Just as it means less if you get one in a game you are already completely in control of. BUT if we are looking for a really good INDICATOR of how a team is doing. Try looking at their recent TO ratio.

FYI - Currently there are TWELVE teams in the league with 3 wins. That's how close things are in the league this year nearly ANYONE is a legitimate playoff contend after the first 3rd of the season. There are just 8 team (4 in each conference) that have winning records. There is only ONE team in the AFC that has 4 losses (3 in the NFC) That is how close things are across the league this year.

There are 16 teams in the league who have a +1 or better in TO's Statistically that's exactly what you'd expect.

Want to know why the Eagles are have an undefeated season, you just have to look at their TO ratio. They are a +12, a full 8 points better than anyone in the league. The rest of the plus teams are all grouped closely into a plus 1 to 4 with the Pats quickly moving from -5 to plus one in just 2 games. 2 games we just happen to win big. (and don't forget about the 8 4th down stops.)

Of those 15 teams grouped from +1 to +4 only 3 have won less than 3 games. Want to know how such a crap teams like the Texans and Steelers have managed 2 wins, you just have to look at their +3/+1 OT ratios.

Locally the Pats went from -5 to +1 in just 2 games. It's no coincidence. Even the in the Packer loss. The main reason we were in that game all the way was the fact we were +2 in that game, including one for a TD.. So all those who want to say Zappe is the main reason for the Pats success., take a closer look The Pats have been a +TEN over the last 3 games. that Zappe as the primary QB and the Pats have been the beneficiary those TA's

No hit on Zappe, just a reminder that there are many factors in wins and TO's are big ones affecting games.

Interesting fact. We have created 10 TO's in the last 3 games, only 2 in the first 3. We are now tied with the Ravens for 3rd best with 12, Two behind the Eagles and one behind the Bills.

Warning - This improbable surge of TO's over the last 3 games is NOT sustainable. It just isn't. 10 TO's in just 3 games is amazing. Even better we only gave away the ball 2 times. That a credit to the QB, but also the return men, the RB's AND all the receivers as well.

Buffalo has the 2nd most TO's like I said at 13, they also have 10 TAKEaway, which I found interesting.. I'd wager some of the TA's had a big part of their one loss;

WE have the dubious honor of being #1 that category at +11 Mac's 5 picks didn't help, but the 5 fumbles have hurt as well - OOPS after rechecking, we are NOT the worst in takeaways. We are tied with the Colts PLUS the Rams and the Saints both have 13. If you want to know why the Superbowl Champion Rams are just 3-3 You only have to look at those 13 TO's and their 2nd worst -5 TO ratio. For US it is not exactly a feather in our caps that we are only CLOSE to be the worst in TA's. ;)

OK I admit it. I have gone down that rabbit hole of statistics and started to ramble. Still I maintain that if you look at the TO ratio of games, even if its by plus one, you will find that you will find the winner, and I'd bet the percentage will be over 80%. I'm guess some who can ride the internet better than I can find that Stat somewhere. Myself I have to go to the gym and create pain for myself.
 
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I thought you meant Time Outs originally and it was a bit weird.
 
I thought you meant Time Outs originally and it was a bit weird.
Shady Acres time, old pal...you're ready for bed pans and big busted brassy nurses..... :whistle:
:p
 
I see there isn't a lot of discussion here, but there really isn't much any of us could add. Very good post, and strong quantification of something we all take for granted as "common knowledge".
 
Good post by OP on TOs. It takes both takeaways (TA) and giveaways (GA) to add up to a +/- TO differential. Getting into the weeds, let's see how they affected the scoring differential (Diff) during these games.

1st 3 games: 8 GAs, 4 TAs
Last 3 games: 3 GAs, 8 TAs

Gm 1: 3 GAs (-10 pts); 0 TAs;
Diff -13 pt LOSS.

Gm 2: 1 GAs (-3 pts); 2 TAs (+7 pts);
Diff +3 pt WIN.

Gm 3: 4 GAs (-9 pts); 2 TAs (+7 pts);
Diff -11 pt LOSS.

Gm 4: 1 GAs (0 pts); 2 TAs (+7 pts);
Diff -3 pt LOSS.

Gm 5: 1 GAs (0 pts); 2 TAs (+10 pts); 4 TO on downs (+13 pts)
Diff +29 pt WIN.

Gm 6: 1 GAs (0 pts); 4 TAs (+17 pts);
Diff +23 pt WIN.

Conclusion:

A. The 1st 3 games had 8 GAs that resulted in 22 pts scored by opponent & 4 TAs that allowed us to score 14 pts. Result was a scoring diff. of -21 pts & a 1-2 record.

B. The last 3 games had 3 GAs that resulted in 0 pts & 8 TAs that resulted in 34 pts. Also, 4 TOs by downs resulted in an addt'l 13 pts. Result was a scoring diff. of +49 pts & a 2-1 record.

Interesting is the game against GB, where despite a +1 TO diff. & +7 pts off TOs, we still lost by 3.
 
I agree with PFK, think it was BB who turned us on to thinking about this during his early years of his tenure here. Since then TO's have always been a much watched stat. In the Pats world TO's are not acceptable, over the years how many times have we seen a kick returner benched because of a miscue or an RB get less snaps after a fumble?? Other teams seem more tolerant.

Another way of looking at this may be a game by game analysis of turnover differential by win or loss.
 
Good post by OP on TOs. It takes both takeaways (TA) and giveaways (GA) to add up to a +/- TO differential. Getting into the weeds, let's see how they affected the scoring differential (Diff) during these games.

1st 3 games: 8 GAs, 4 TAs
Last 3 games: 3 GAs, 8 TAs

Gm 1: 3 GAs (-10 pts); 0 TAs;
Diff -13 pt LOSS.

Gm 2: 1 GAs (-3 pts); 2 TAs (+7 pts);
Diff +3 pt WIN.

Gm 3: 4 GAs (-9 pts); 2 TAs (+7 pts);
Diff -11 pt LOSS.

Gm 4: 1 GAs (0 pts); 2 TAs (+7 pts);
Diff -3 pt LOSS.

Gm 5: 1 GAs (0 pts); 2 TAs (+10 pts); 4 TO on downs (+13 pts)
Diff +29 pt WIN.

Gm 6: 1 GAs (0 pts); 4 TAs (+17 pts);
Diff +23 pt WIN.

Conclusion:

A. The 1st 3 games had 8 GAs that resulted in 22 pts scored by opponent & 4 TAs that allowed us to score 14 pts. Result was a scoring diff. of -21 pts & a 1-2 record.

B. The last 3 games had 3 GAs that resulted in 0 pts & 8 TAs that resulted in 34 pts. Also, 4 TOs by downs resulted in an addt'l 13 pts. Result was a scoring diff. of +49 pts & a 2-1 record.

Interesting is the game against GB, where despite a +1 TO diff. & +7 pts off TOs, we still lost by 3.
Nice post, V.

I still think we should consider 4th down stops as well. I know we were 8-3 over the last 2 games. I wonder what the record was in the first 3. Those 4th down stops can be like TO's if they occur in the mdfield area, and take points away when it happens in the red zone.
Personally I like the fact that NFL coaches are going for it more and more on 4th down. But the fact they do make those makes and stops even a more significant stat.

You are good with these things. answer me 2 questions.. How did the Pats do on 4th down conversions in the first 3 games and what are those stats league wide through the first 6 games. How many tries have their been and how many times was it made. Thanks
 
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Third down percentage is another major stat. Convert on offense and stop on defense. This is more sustainable than getting all those turnovers in just a few games. If we can stay relatively healthy and do well on third down, we have a shot. Keep getting turnovers and we have a good shot.

We’re improving on third down, too, but is it due to who we’re playing? I’d like to see long, penalty free drives to start every game.
 
Nice post, V.

I still think we should consider 4th down stops as well. I know we were 8-3 over the last 2 games. I wonder what the record was in the first 3. Those 4th down stops can be like TO's if they occur in the mdfield area, and take points away when it happens in the red zone.
Personally I like the fact that NFL coaches are going for it more and more on 4th down. But the fact they do make those makes and snaps even a more significant stat.

You are good with these things. answer me 2 questions.. How did the Pats do on 4th down conversions in the first 3 games and what are those stats league wide through the first 6 games. How many tries have their been and how many times was it made. Thanks
I didn't include all TO by downs because they didn't include scores from them. In the DET game which had 4, we actually scored after those stops, so I listed those. We didn't score any points from the stops in the CLE game, and so on.

Here's in response to your question through 6 games. Pats are at 33% on 4th down conversions. They were at 71% last season. I don't think the Pats try too many.. Of the top 10 (60% to 75% success rate), MIN, PHI, TEN, KC & BUF are the only teams with winning records.

1666212672074.png
 
This one shows the attempts and # made for each 3rd & 4th downs & total penalties and yards. Pats only attempted three 4th down conversions and completed one. Interesting to see they converted 63 times on 1st down via the pass and 43 via run. I would've expected closer numbers there.

1666213603073.png
1666213650224.png
 
Embarrassed to say I thought was going to be about Terrell Owens and the power of diva wrs in the NFL...

:whistle:
 
There is an old adage in football - each lost turnover decreases your chance to win by 25% ... While the percentage maybe high, all these stats do back it up... Point swing differentials based on turn overs would probably be a better indicator ... How many turn overs lead to points etc...
 
This one shows the attempts and # made for each 3rd & 4th downs & total penalties and yards. Pats only attempted three 4th down conversions and completed one. Interesting to see they converted 63 times on 1st down via the pass and 43 via run. I would've expected closer numbers there.

View attachment 46426
View attachment 46427
Noticed that the Pats are pretty much in the middle of the pack as far as penalty yds go. There are 15 teams that are worse. 3 teams that are within 4 yds of us, and the rest that are better. We have 299yds in penalties but the Saints Seahawks, Denver and Jets all over 400 yds with Denver being the worst at a whopping 486 yds

The Pats are not horrible with Penalties, just not nearly as good as we have been in past years, when we generally in the top 5 best at avoiding penalties. Maybe its because the newness of the staff. Maybe its because we only have had 2 home games. Maybe its getting used to 2 different QB's and their idiosyncrasies. Maybe its because they are not emphasizing it enough.

All we can do is wait and hope it gets better.
 


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