How Belichick lost his place in posterity

[sb1]

I already discussed this above, and you saying there were no good players on the #1 passing team in the NFL two years running before Tom got there and #1 run stopping defense is outright foolish.

You omitted that they were one of the worst pass defenses in the league in 2019 and didn't have much of a running game either. 3 pro bowlers and zero first team all pros. I'd expect a lot more if they were really this amazing team that was just a QB away.

 

[Wozzy]

People talk like Brady went to a "stacked" team. The Bucs were absolutely not "stacked" or a "superteam" that made Tom win a SB. They were what their record said they were... a 7 win team. Adding Tom was why they won it all.

They were stacked everywhere except QB.

In 2020 they also needed a left tackle, but they had the 13th overall pick and not a lot of other needs.

They also had first and 2nd year cornerbacks who were young and inexperienced, but they were also plus athletes… great prospects getting valuable reps in 2019.

In short, they started getting better when Arians arrived years prior, they were stacked when Brady arrived in 2020 because all they really needed was a QB.

I said Tampa was the best landing spot for Tom before he even announced he was leaving NE, so this isn’t hindsight expertise.

 

[maust]

People talk like Brady went to a "stacked" team. The Bucs were absolutely not "stacked" or a "superteam" that made Tom win a SB. They were what their record said they were... a 7 win team. Adding Tom was why they won it all.

Because he was what they lacked, a top flight QB. The team Jameis Winston had in Tampa allowed him to pass for 5100 yds in spite of throwing 30 ints. Jameis Freakin' Winston... 5100 yds. Think about that for a minute. I love me some TB12 but Kirk Cousins could probably have won a playoff game or 3 with that team. Not the hill to die on my man, that offense was stacked and it only got better after Brady got there.

 

[signbabybrady]

Matt Rhule was blown away by Bill Belichick

Former Patriots coach Bill Belichick currently doesn't have a job, but he's definitely keeping busy.

www.nbcsports.com

 

[cmasspatsfan]

I already discussed this above, and you saying there were no good players on the #1 passing team in the NFL two years running before Tom got there and #1 run stopping defense is outright foolish.

Not saying that, saying once Tom got there the players that came on board made the team better team than the year before. They were a good team with a terrible QB but the additions made them a super bowl team along with Tom at QB.

 

[Tunescribe]

Matt Rhule was blown away by Bill Belichick

Former Patriots coach Bill Belichick currently doesn't have a job, but he's definitely keeping busy.

www.nbcsports.com

I really would like to know if BB was willing to give up at least some of his GM role to stay on as Patriots coach. Or, if Kraft suggested it and Belichick's refusal to do so was the deal breaker.

 

[sb1]

Not saying that, saying once Tom got there the players that came on board made the team better team than the year before. They were a good team with a terrible QB but the additions made them a super bowl team along with Tom at QB.

That's right. AB, Gronk and Fournette - all 3 who had a big role in that SB run - would sign with them if Kirk Cousins was their QB? Not a chance. They were good but not a super team, and definitely not a real title contender until Brady got there. It was all him that put them over the top.

 

[signbabybrady]

That's right. AB, Gronk and Fournette - all 3 who had a big role in that SB run - would sign with them if Kirk Cousins was their QB? Not a chance. They were good but not a super team, and definitely not a real title contender until Brady got there. It was all him that put them over the top.

Super team is obviously a stretch.

But this team was more ready than most to be able to win that quickly. Most teams that were that ready already had a QB too. They obviously weren't the only team capable of this but not every team would have been instantly able to win like that.

I'd have to go back and really study to see how many other teams were as close. SF obviously comes to mind. And even if other teams were ready it still doesn't guarantee it would have come together so quickly.

I tend to give TB12 the benefit of the doubt so he probably could have gone to teams not as ready and still turned it around as quickly. Maybe the list of teams was very deep and I'm not calling Tampa a super team but they were definitely a team that was in an excellent place to be able to take on TB12 and quickly do what they did.

 

[maust]

Super team is obviously a stretch.

I'd have to go back and really study to see how many other teams were as close. SF obviously comes to mind. And even if other teams were ready it still doesn't guarantee it would have come together so quickly.

The Rams spring to mind

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Come on man! 33 pages? Is this still a topic?
Why don't we just take Brady at his word: He wouldn't done what he did without Belichick.
Then, take Belichick at his word that Brady is the QB GOAT.

Belichick turned the 5--11 2000 NEP into the 11-5 2001 SB Champions. His Game Plan for SB XXXVI is in Canton, along with most of the rest of his career and, eventually, himself one day.
He was HC in the middle of chaos in Cleveland...on and off the field.
Then, surprise-surprise, he couldn't turn Mac Jones into Tom Brady. Fair? Unfair? Patricia? Not Patricia? Doesn't matter.
Put it this way: if Mac Jones leads a team to a couple of Lombardi's, you can bookmark this and call me out.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

I really would like to know if BB was willing to give up at least some of his GM role to stay on as Patriots coach. Or, if Kraft suggested it and Belichick's refusal to do so was the deal breaker.

Kraft said that he didn't think that Bill giving up power would work. His reasoning was that BB had been there so long that no one would feel like they were able to make decisions with him still in the room. It is hard to argue with that conclusion.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Come on man! 33 pages? Is this still a topic?
Why don't we just take Brady at his word: He wouldn't done what he did without Belichick.
Then, take Belichick at his word that Brady is the QB GOAT.

Belichick turned the 5--11 2000 NEP into the 11-5 2001 SB Champions. His Game Plan for SB XXXVI is in Canton, along with most of the rest of his career and, eventually, himself one day.
He was HC in the middle of chaos in Cleveland...on and off the field.
Then, surprise-surprise, he couldn't turn Mac Jones into Tom Brady. Fair? Unfair? Patricia? Not Patricia? Doesn't matter.
Put it this way: if Mac Jones leads a team to a couple of Lombardi's, you can bookmark this and call me out.

PS to the above: it's easy, almost a quarter century later, to forget that the "easy" decision for Belichick in 2000 (a decision that would have been supported by many on this Board at the time!) would have been to stick with Bledsoe and create a situation wherein TB12 would, at best, have to wait at least one more year before becoming QB1 and, at worst, go somewhere else in frustration. Making that tough decision in 2000 and partnering with Ernie Adams over the years were the two most important decisions he made.

 

[skinnydog]

They were stacked everywhere except QB.

In 2020 they also needed a left tackle, but they had the 13th overall pick and not a lot of other needs.

They also had first and 2nd year cornerbacks who were young and inexperienced, but they were also plus athletes… great prospects getting valuable reps in 2019.

In short, they started getting better when Arians arrived years prior, they were stacked when Brady arrived in 2020 because all they really needed was a QB.

I said Tampa was the best landing spot for Tom before he even announced he was leaving NE, so this isn’t hindsight expertise.

They needed. R tackle, not L. Tampa did have a lot of talent on both sides of the ball. Gronk was a huge help as well. They had a talented but under performing TE. Tampa players also openly talked about Brady also changing the entire attitude of the team.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Whatever he wanted we should have given it to him.

But I don't think any of your numbers or years are right. And he only gave us a chance to do it up until a year early by the time the season ended he never negotiated again.

But without getting into dollars he wanted a 3 year extension and when and how he negotiated is not really clear. What we know as fact is he wanted to play until he was 45 and we had him signed until he was 42.

Had we just locked him up until 45 I think the money would have been worked out. The problem is he tried to get this when he was 40 and BB didn't cave and then when he was 41 I think it still could of been worked out but when it didn't and he was about to turn 42 he insisted on the no franchise clause and it was over he played out his last year and hado already chose to leave. We all hoped and thought they would negotiate again but it never happened and he instead went to Krafts house and told him what his choice was and they called and informed Bill.

Anything else imo falls under woulda/coulda/shoulda. It really is dumb after ATL he should have been given whatever he asked for. Really after Sea. But everyone also likes to ignore that we had him locked up through age 42 and why give some one who would be 43 anything earlier than you have to it's kind of unprecedented and a fairly reasonable way to play it especially before the no franchise clause was added.

We really shouldn't have given that away and if it had to play out differently in August at least we'd have some leverage but coming off the Rams win no one was ready to get ugly and I think the no franchise clause and playing it out was the only thing that worked for all 3 BB, RKK, and TB12. Bill wasn't giving what TB wanted but TB wasn't ready to blow it up and Kraft couldn't take sides and played the middle like he typically does.

Man, I don't get how people still don't get to this day that Tom is...different.

Special.

There are a lot of factors contributing to this, from Drew Henson to Drew Bledsoe, Bob Kraft to Bill Belichick etc.

It was obvious to me and I think lots of (quiet) people from his first start. And his interviews too.

Opponents, the league and media are morons, that's a given.

But Kraft and Belichick never learned and clearly never will. They can blather rhetoric and hyperbole all they want, but when the chips were down both of them failed epically. Tom finished his career as an ex-Patriot, and he played at his superlative best including winning a title for someone else, and retired 100% a Buccaneer. Kraft's meltdown from this simple reality is indicative of his disconnect, prematurely and embarrassingly holding a premature induction into his illegitimate team Hall of Fame while Francis, Tatupu, Kilroy, Fairbanks, Stingley and Adams rest in peace with only the personal pride and knowledge that they gave everything they had for the team.

And we know and saw exactly what each of them did. Yup, Fairbanks too. He was driven out of town.

Tom was obviously open to staying and being a career Patriot. He was driven out the door and yelled at implicitly, "You're not and will never be Drew Bledsoe. You don't know your place. [Despite all evidence to the contrary] You're not worthy of special consideration or treatment."

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

PS to the above: it's easy, almost a quarter century later, to forget that the "easy" decision for Belichick in 2000 (a decision that would have been supported by many on this Board at the time!) would have been to stick with Bledsoe and create a situation wherein TB12 would, at best, have to wait at least one more year before becoming QB1 and, at worst, go somewhere else in frustration. Making that tough decision in 2000 and partnering with Ernie Adams over the years were the two most important decisions he made.

The "T-E-A-M" press conference was probably the most important of Bill's career. Maybe the best.

HC of NYJ, Mona Lisa Vito, On to Cincy...there are too many to count.

"Um.....uh....well...uh....."


Priceless

 

[Wax Frog]

Will you stop with your intelligent, well thought out rational responses. they don't belong here.

That gets my vote for the official PatsFans.com forum tagline!

 

[Vindicate]

I blame Patricia more than Belichick for the defense in that one, save for the Butler decision - which was inexcusable. That whole conservative approach killed them and the difference between that and how Flores ran things (way more aggressive) was striking and they’ve seemingly stayed with it ever since.

It was interesting once Flores came on - the difference was immediate, those Patricia defenses were uniquely... Bland. They got the job done, probably the most "disciplined" you could ask for, it was like Analytics and Fundamentals banged out a child called Execution Testing.

 

[Mack Herron]

cleaning house.

 

[signbabybrady]

cleaning house.

I tried to read the article and I don't know what was done. Something about erasing "do your job" but what was specially done?

 

[maust]

cleaning house.

Meh, this is an organization and fan base that needs to move on to what comes next. When attempting to forge a new team identity removing the ever present mantra of the last regime only seems logical. Probably to reasoned a response to what is supposed to be a trigger event but all the glorious yesterdays don't add up to a single tomorrow.