How Belichick lost his place in posterity

[maust]

Agree that better offense can help the defense in a complementary manner, but it's a very small part of a defense being great. A great offense and a magical QB cannot make a bad defense good... it simply can't. And we have many examples of this, the best of which is the Saints when Drew Brees was at the peak of his powers. For reference Brees is #2 just behind Tom on the NFL's all-time passing yards and TD's list... he's the closest thing we have to Tom Brady in terms of production.

Drew Brees led the entire NFL in passing yards three years in a row from 2014-2016, his offense was ranked 5th, 6th and 2nd in points scored per drive in the NFL that season. His defenses in those years were ranked 31st, 32nd and 32nd over that same stretch... the Saints won 7 games, 7 games and 7 games. Shouldn't his defenses have been better?

The Brees analogy doesn't really work because the situations between his Saints and Winston's Bucs aren't analogous. Brees wasn't among the reasons his D sucked, Winston largely was. The 2019 Tampa D wasn't truly bad. They weren't a great D by any means but they were effectively hamstrung. Made significantly worse than they were by the albatross of Winston the turnover machine putting them back on the field. It shouldn't be glossed over just how horrific Winston's turnovers were. As bad as his overall turnover numbers were his pick 6's were even worse. They alone accounted for the margin of loss in 4 games. That D was 'good' enough for that 7-9 team to have gone 11-5 if Winston hadn't directly stolen 4 defeats out of the jaws of victory.

 

[Tunescribe]

 

[Wozzy]

The Brees analogy doesn't really work because the situations between his Saints and Winston's Bucs aren't analogous. Brees wasn't among the reason his D sucked, Winston largely was. The 2019 Tampa D wasn't truly bad. They weren't a great D by any means but they were effectively hamstrung. Made significantly worse than they were by the albatross of Winston the turnover machine putting them back on the field. It shouldn't be glossed over just how horrific Winston's turnovers were. As bad as his overall turnover numbers were his pick 6's were even worse. They alone accounted for the margin of loss in 4 games. That D was 'good' enough for that 7-9 team to have gone 11-5 if Winston hadn't directly stolen 4 defeats out of the jaws of victory.

The Brees example showed that while a complementary offense can help a defense along, it can’t turn a terrible defense into a good one… which is what Brady zealots are suggesting he did all throughout this abortion of a thread.

Brees played exceptionally well from 2014-2016, his offense was top five in scoring… his defense averaged 32nd worst in points allowed. There was little to no complementary effect at all.

Seems like every time you post here you’re simultaneously agreeing with me, but also not at the same time. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say at this point.

 

[Wozzy]

I think the zealots are running out of fuel… they’ll just regroup though, and a week from now there will be another thread suggesting the winningest coach in history was actually a bumbling fool who backed into success.

Wash, rinse, repeat…

It reminds me of an old Steven Wright joke. Remember that half the people you meet are below average, those are the people making the above argument.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

I don't really understand what there is to disagree about here. Tom Brady made the Bucs a championship team. He did not however mold that offense from whole clay, there was plenty there to work with. One could even make the case by not hanging the D out to dry on the reg he substantially improved that side of the ball as well. One can not simply whistle past just how bad Jameis Winston hurt that team or ignore how much TFB improved it.

It wasn't just Winston, it was Ariens riskit bisket offense that held the 2019 TB offense back. The offense continued to struggle and turn the ball over with Brady until he forced a change in offensive strategy to focus more on short passing and the run game. Brady's leadership contributions are probably more important to that super bowl than his on field exploits.

 

[maust]

Seems like every time you post here you’re simultaneously agreeing with me, but also not at the same time. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say at this point.

What I am saying is the 2019 Bucs did not have a truly bad D but they did have a truly bad QB. Just in pick 6's Winston was directly responsible for 4 losses. At a minimum those pick 6's were the difference between 7-9 and 11-5. Brady's arrival removed Tampa's weakest link from the equation.

The other 'side's' argument is not without some merit, Brady was definitely the cure for what ailed the Bucs. At the same time an even cursory look at the 2019 Bucs D would show a unit that did okay given the disadvantage they operated under

 

[sb1]

Agree that better offense can help the defense in a complementary manner, but it's a very small part of a defense being great. A great offense and a magical QB cannot make a bad defense good... it simply can't. And we have many examples of this, the best of which is the Saints when Drew Brees was at the peak of his powers. For reference Brees is #2 just behind Tom on the NFL's all-time passing yards and TD's list... he's the closest thing we have to Tom Brady in terms of production.

Drew Brees led the entire NFL in passing yards three years in a row from 2014-2016, his offense was ranked 5th, 6th and 2nd in points scored per drive in the NFL that season. His defenses in those years were ranked 31st, 32nd and 32nd over that same stretch... the Saints won 7 games, 7 games and 7 games. Shouldn't his defenses have been better?

Bottom line is the Buc's were getting better year after year for three years in a row since Bruce Arians took over at head coach. The final piece to that was acquiring Brady to replace Winston. If Brady went to the Raiders instead, the other main contender for his services in 2020, and he was forced to play with the Raider's 31st ranked defense Tom would have fallen flat on his face. The same way he failed to win a ring when his Patriot's or Buc's teams weren't good enough.

The worst defense Tom ever played with was in 2002 when they were ranked 20th in points allowed, Tom also wasn't the best version of himself yet and the offense around him wasn't great... they went 9-7. He never approached a defense as bad as the Saints from 2014-2016... not even close.

You sure about that? I don't remember those Saints defenses giving up 350-400 yards a game to the likes of Vince Young Chad Henne and Dan Orlovsky like one of those defenses Brady took to the Super Bowl.

The funniest piece of irony and hypocrisy in this thread today was this poster just above arguing out one side of his mouth that Brady was entirely responsible for BB and the Patriot's success....

You calling Bill a hypocrite? He said it himself.

but when he lost to Nick Foles in 2017 it was BB's fault for not playing Malcolm Butler. How is it possible Brady is responsible for BB's success, but it was BB's fault Brady lost the SB to Nick Foles in 2017 despite having the greatest statistical playoff game of his career?

If Super Bowl 52 wasn't BB's fault then Butler's benching wouldn't be a thing. It really is ok to call out Bill where he deserves it you won't lose your Bill fan card you know. I was an IBWT guy too until the stupidity in 2022 when he brought in 2 knuckleheads to run his offense for no reason other than just because. That's where he lost me. Maybe he'd still have a job in the NFL today if he wasn't a contrarian trying to mess around with his young QB's development.

The reason... because this entire thread only exists due to the delusion of BB haters and Brady fanboys.

Gimme the great QB over the coach. Each and every single time.

Football is a team sport, the teams that win rings are good across their entire roster and in all three phases. You win the most playoff games in history by being a better team for two decades,

So you went from Brady had the best defenses by far over his peers (which he didn't) to being on the best teams. Make up your mind!

 

[Tunescribe]

I think the zealots are running out of fuel… they’ll just regroup though, and a week from now there will be another thread suggesting the winningest coach in history was actually a bumbling fool who backed into success.

Wash, rinse, repeat…

It reminds me of an old Steven Wright joke. Remember that half the people you meet are below average, those are the people making the above argument.

I always thought creating the Tom Brady Forum might've been a mistake. It just enabled hero worshipers who don't understand football's intradependent, team-centric nature to reinforce each other. That spawned the Tampa Bay Ghetto abomination and along with it all the anti-BB/anti-Mac/anti-Patriots vitriol. You'd think Brady's retirement and Belichick's firing would end that pathological nonsense but the beast won't die.

 

[maust]

It wasn't just Winston, it was Ariens riskit bisket offense that held the 2019 TB offense back. The offense continued to struggle and turn the ball over with Brady until he forced a change in offensive strategy to focus more on short passing and the run game. Brady's leadership contributions are probably more important to that super bowl than his on field exploits.

Not saying Winston was the only problem, just the biggest one. If it seems like I am harping on it that's because it hasn't gotten the play it merits in this (ahem) discussion.

 

[sb1]

The 2009 Pats defense was 5th in points allowed but were mediocre in getting turnovers, not in the top 10 in rushing or passing defense, nor in 3rd down conversion %, in the bottom 10 in RZ% and 30% of opponent drives ended in a score which is one of the worst in the NFL. Here I'm using simple stats and can easily demonstrate that they were not a good defense regardless of their points allowed ranking.

Or how about the 2017 Pats. 5th in points allowed but bottom third in run defense, one of the worst pass defenses in the league and couldn't get turnovers against an easy schedule.

Sorry you're not going to convince me that PPG has any value at all when assessing a team defense.

 

[sb1]

The Bucs were the 24th ranked rushing team in 2019, they fell to 25th in 2020. The rushing stats don't help your cause at all. The truth is when you have the receiving corps the Bucs had in both those years running is an afterthought.

Maybe but the point was they were not this amazing team that they're being made to me. And responding to your other post saying "people" wasn't an accusation that you thought that way, but that is the narrative out there that Brady went to an amazing team that helped him win it all. The Bucs were good, not great. Let's say they were at least good enough to respond to a guy like Brady being QB and win a championship with him.

Their pass defense was 30th in 2019 when their QB kept putting them back out on the field at a record rate. It improved to 21st with the GOAT protecting the ball at QB.
The 2019 Bucs were a very good offensive team with a bad QB who failed at the number one task of anyone who handles the ball, don't cough it up.

Winston was a big problem for sure but I question whether they would have won it all if another QB went there. They were missing other things that only the GOAT could give them. Also it's not likely Gronk, AB and Fournette would have gone there if Brady wasn't there.

I don't really understand what there is to disagree about here. Tom Brady made the Bucs a championship team. He did not however mold that offense from whole clay, there was plenty there to work with.

Fair enough, I don't think they outright sucked but I wouldn't say they were stacked everywhere either. Unless we're comparing them to the Pats then yeah they're stacked.

 

[Wozzy]

What I am saying is the 2019 Bucs did not have a truly bad D but they did have a truly bad QB. Just in pick 6's Winston was directly responsible for 4 losses. At a minimum those pick 6's were the difference between 7-9 and 11-5. Brady's arrival removed Tampa's weakest link from the equation.

The other 'side's' argument is not without some merit, Brady was definitely the cure for what ailed the Bucs. At the same time an even cursory look at the 2019 Bucs D would show a unit that did okay given the disadvantage they operated under

So you agree with me 100%, good to know.

 

[Wozzy]

The 2009 Pats defense was 5th in points allowed but were mediocre in getting turnovers, not in the top 10 in rushing or passing defense, nor in 3rd down conversion %, in the bottom 10 in RZ% and 30% of opponent drives ended in a score which is one of the worst in the NFL. Here I'm using simple stats and can easily demonstrate that they were not a good defense regardless of their points allowed ranking.

Points are the most important stat in football, it doesn’t make points the only stat that matters.

Turnovers, 3rd/4th down and goal line percentages matter, even yards allowed has some value. The 2009 offense wasn’t great either, they were too finesse, soft, they had no power rushing attack. It’s a team game and they lost in the playoffs as a team.

DVOA is garbage, junk science.

Or how about the 2017 Pats. 5th in points allowed but bottom third in run defense, one of the worst pass defenses in the league and couldn't get turnovers against an easy schedule.

Sorry you're not going to convince me that PPG has any value at all when assessing a team defense.

The 2017 defense lost their single best player in Donta Hightower, their 350 pound nose tackle in Alan Branch, their nickel CB in Jon Jones and SS Patrick Chung to injury before or during the playoffs.

The defense we saw in the playoffs was a shadow of what came before due to injury. Something I warned prior to the playoffs could doom them in the postseason. The best team is more often than not the healthiest team. Injury is the great equalizer. The Eagles were the better team in the final game.

 

[Pats1971]

I think the zealots are running out of fuel… they’ll just regroup though, and a week from now there will be another thread suggesting the winningest coach in history was actually a bumbling fool who backed into success.

Wash, rinse, repeat…

It reminds me of an old Steven Wright joke. Remember that half the people you meet are below average, those are the people making the above argument.

I literally showed you, how Brady makes defenses give up less points and you still didnt get it. You keep making this claim that points is the only thing that matters for a defense, yet, the Bucs by only adding Brady to offense and nobody to defense, went from 27th in points to 7th. Thats why points is not this end all be all for how good a defense is. Sacks forced turnovers, yards, Your defense letting the other team keep the ball for 8 minute drives, 3rd down converstion, etc etc. You are so hung up on the one thing so you can dismiss Brady its unreal. Fact of the matter is, the offense is very much contributing greatly to a team giving up a lot of points or not. Ask Tampa where they went from 27th in points to 7th with the addition of a Qb that did long drives and didnt turn the ball over. I know You Bill can do no wrong people are upset because the worst thing possible happened, Bill didnt win after Brady left and got fired, but at this point its just silly.

Regardless if you like it or dont. If there was no Brady, Bill coaches the pats about 2 more years and gets fired from the Patriots. There is no 20 year run, Bill was 5-13 with the pats when Brady took over, then he was 29-38 after Brady left. This isnt some hard to figure out thing, I promise.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Not saying Winston was the only problem, just the biggest one. If it seems like I am harping on it that's because it hasn't gotten the play it merits in this (ahem) discussion.

LOL, it's always risky replying to an "active" discussion. Winston is the classic golden arm with a 10 cent brain. He had no issue throwing the game away again and again if he got to sling it.

 

[signbabybrady]

 

[Pats1971]

He is such nutjob. lol. Can you imagine going from that to Brady.

 

[maust]

Maybe but the point was they were not this amazing team that they're being made to me. And responding to your other post saying "people" wasn't an accusation that you thought that way, but that is the narrative out there that Brady went to an amazing team that helped him win it all. The Bucs were good, not great. Let's say they were at least good enough to respond to a guy like Brady being QB and win a championship with him.

Winston was a big problem for sure but I question whether they would have won it all if another QB went there. They were missing other things that only the GOAT could give them. Also it's not likely Gronk, AB and Fournette would have gone there if Brady wasn't there.

Fair enough, I don't think they outright sucked but I wouldn't say they were stacked everywhere either. Unless we're comparing them to the Pats then yeah they're stacked.

'Fair enough' is fair enough, considering where the discussion started that's all I was really looking for. OFC the Bucs weren't 'stacked everywhere' and I don't believe anyone said they were. They were however definitely "stacked" at WR. I never once contended they'd have won it all with some other QB. I said a Cousins level of QB could have been expected to get to and have a chance to win a playoff game (or three, the playoffs are their own unique animal every year).

Gronk was a big add for them. Howard just wasn't getting it done, particularly on the blocking side. Gronkowski's underrated blocking was probably the single biggest factor in Tampa's short yardage improvement. Gronk was not playing for any other QB, so huge value added with Brady. Fournette was no better than Barber and 2020 AB wasn't a substantial improvement on 2019 Perriman. At best the two were a combined wash with the players they replaced. Both of them may or may not have signed with Tampa regardless of Brady being there. The question is whether Tampa would even have considered AB if Brady wasn't there. An honest assessment would have to be their willingness to sign AB would have been doubtful at best.

The bottom line, to me anyway, is a team with a serious quarterbacking problem in 2019 (Winston's failures were their undoing) got the best there ever was in 2020. Brady more than held up his end. Whether it was leadership (on or off the field) or performance the GOAT was out there doing GOAT things, the result speaks for itself.

 

[Pats1971]

'Fair enough' is fair enough, considering where the discussion started that's all I was really looking for. OFC the Bucs weren't 'stacked everywhere' and I don't believe anyone said they were. They were however definitely "stacked" at WR. I never once contended they'd have won it all with some other QB. I said a Cousins level of QB could have been expected to get to and have a chance to win a playoff game (or three, the playoffs are their own unique animal every year).

Gronk was a big add for them. Howard just wasn't getting it done, particularly on the blocking side. Gronkowski's underrated blocking was probably the single biggest factor in Tampa's short yardage improvement. Gronk was not playing for any other QB, so huge value added with Brady. Fournette was no better than Barber and 2020 AB wasn't a substantial improvement on 2019 Perriman. At best the two were a combined wash with the players they replaced. Both of them may or may not have signed with Tampa regardless of Brady being there. The question is whether Tampa would even have considered AB if Brady wasn't there. An honest assessment would have to be their willingness to sign AB would have been doubtful at best.

The bottom line, to me anyway, is a team with a serious quarterbacking problem in 2019 (Winston's failures were their undoing) got the best there ever was in 2020. Brady more than held up his end. Whether it was leadership (on or off the field) or performance the GOAT was out there doing GOAT things, the result speaks for itself.

The legend of the Stacked super Tampa Bay bucs who had not won a playoff game in 18 years, has far outreached legendary status. Cousins had a great wide receiving corp, how did that go? It takes a lot to win a superbowl. There are hundreds and hundreds of good Qbs that could not win one. The bucs had no idea how to win when brady got there. Gronk was there because Brady went there. If Brady decided to come back to the pats or retire, and Tampa rolled with winston again or their backup, there are zero humans on the earth that would have called Tampa a super team in 2020. People have a hard time taking actual reality and diminishing what Brady brought to a team, so they do the next best thing, they try to use everything else to say why a team won other than Brady. The winning and losing stops when Brady is not there. It became so blantant on the Pats it got a coach fired that was untouchable.

Even if Winston stays and is not a turnover machine, Tampa goes nowhere. They didnt know how to win, they didnt know how to handle certain game situations. Watch a game in 2019 and watch a tampa game in 2020. It was unreal how different it looked. Look at high pressure drives for the pats after Brady left. Its just gross. Ok here we go, 2 minutes to win it all.....and they punted.

 

[maust]

The legend of the Stacked super Tampa Bay bucs who had not won a playoff game in 18 years, has far outreached legendary status. Cousins had a great wide receiving corp, how did that go? It takes a lot to win a superbowl. There are hundreds and hundreds of good Qbs that could not win one. The bucs had no idea how to win when brady got there. Gronk was there because Brady went there. If Brady decided to come back to the pats or retire, and Tampa rolled with winston again or their backup, there are zero humans on the earth that would have called Tampa a super team in 2020. People have a hard time taking actual reality and diminishing what Brady brought to a team, so they do the next best thing, they try to use everything else to say why a team won other than Brady. The winning and losing stops when Brady is not there. It became so blantant on the Pats it got a coach fired that was untouchable.

Even if Winston stays and is not a turnover machine, Tampa goes nowhere. They didnt know how to win, they didnt know how to handle certain game situations. Watch a game in 2019 and watch a tampa game in 2020. It was unreal how different it looked. Look at high pressure drives for the pats after Brady left. Its just gross. Ok here we go, 2 minutes to win it all.....and they punted.

You are taking exception with the wrong poster
I did not say the Bucs were a 'stacked super team.' What I did say is they were "stacked "at WR, and clearly they were.
I have contended right along having Tom F Brady at QB was the rising tide that lifted every boat in Tampa

What part of this:

The bottom line, to me anyway, is a team with a serious quarterbacking problem in 2019 (Winston's failures were their undoing) got the best there ever was in 2020. Brady more than held up his end. Whether it was leadership (on or off the field) or performance the GOAT was out there doing GOAT things, the result speaks for itself.

Was so hard to understand that somehow you rebutted it by restating it?