Hannah to be honored at Garden...

[Pats726]

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=143435

 

[italian pat patriot]

9 Pro Bowls...amazing...

surely one of the best Patriot if not the best

 

[3 to be 4]

i wonder if Tony Eason will be the emcee?

you know, as time goes by, i have to say, what Hannah did to Eason has made me think less of him.
Hannah never goes to a Super Bowl if it wasnt for Eason. Eason was also his teammate. I think the accusations say more about Hannah than it does about Eason.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

If a Guard is a franchise's best player, it doesn't speak well of the frachise. After winning 3 SBs, it's a slap in face and an insult to suggest that John Hannah is still the best Patriot. With the coming of the salary cap era we now know how low the G position is on the totem pole. Guard is one of the more replaceable positions on any team. Before 2001, Pats fans had nothing to hang their hat on but shame, embarassment, what-ifs, and what-could-have-beens. With his annual Pro Bowl appearances Hannah became a shining beacon. When he made the cover of SI (1978?), Hannah became a legend. Pats fans were craving for national recognition of their team and Hannah gave them that.

Some nasty facts about Hannah...

In 1977 Hannah and LT Leon Gray, along with their scumbag agent, Howard Slusher, staged a holdout that lasted through the first 3 weeks of the regular season. The Pats went 1-2 in those games with the 2 losses against the weak Jets and the lowly Browns, both by identical 30-27 scores. Needless to say had Hannah and Gray played in those games, it should have been enough to tip the balance in their favor. The actions Hannah and Gray took were far worse that anything Ty Law or Lawyer Milloy had ever done.

After the 1978 season, the Sullivan's, who would make Jeremy Jacobs look like Mark Cuban, decided they they could keep only Hannah or Gray. Without having any viable replacement at LT, they foolishly traded Gray to the Oilers (an AFC arch rival that smoked the Pats twice in Foxboro in 1978!!!) and kept Hannah. If I had a choice between a Pro Bowl G and a PB LT, I'll take the LT any day. Had the Pats kept Gray and traded Hannah, they might have fared better in 1979 and 1980. With hindsight being 20/20 and based on the results of those 2 seasons, the Pats made the worng choice. Dwight Wheeler never replaced Leon Gray at LT.

3-of-4 posted the last fact about Hannah. Hannah's cowardly post-retirement Eason comments ruined his reputation as a teammate.

I've been a Pats fan since 1976 and I thank the Lord for allowing me to witness a truly great era of New England Patriots football in the BB-Brady years. Everything a long-time Pats fan has longed for throughout the agonizing history of this team, had finally arrived.

BTW I got my flame suit on!!!

 

[italian pat patriot]

i wonder if Tony Eason will be the emcee?

you know, as time goes by, i have to say, what Hannah did to Eason has made me think less of him.
Hannah never goes to a Super Bowl if it wasnt for Eason. Eason was also his teammate. I think the accusations say more about Hannah than it does about Eason.

anyway i think Hannah was an immense player on the field. but, you know, i appreciated what Tony Eason done for us.
having said that probably you are a right too: with the teammates you should settle the things internally...

back to John Hannah: he has been one of the best players imho

 

[italian pat patriot]

If a Guard is a franchise's best player, it doesn't speak well of the frachise. After winning 3 SBs, it's a slap in face and an insult to suggest that John Hannah is still the best Patriot. With the coming of the salary cap era we now know how low the G position is on the totem pole. Guard is one of the more replaceable positions on any team. Before 2001, Pats fans had nothing to hang their hat on but shame, embarassment, what-ifs, and what-could-have-beens. With his annual Pro Bowl appearances Hannah became a shining beacon. When he made the cover of SI (1978?), Hannah became a legend. Pats fans were craving for national recognition of their team and Hannah gave them that.

Some nasty facts about Hannah...

In 1977 Hannah and LT Leon Gray, along with their scumbag agent, Howard Slusher, staged a holdout that lasted through the first 3 weeks of the regular season. The Pats went 1-2 in those games with the 2 losses against the weak Jets and the lowly Browns, both by identical 30-27 scores. Needless to say had Hannah and Gray played in those games, it should have been enough to tip the balance in their favor. The actions Hannah and Gray took were far worse that anything Ty Law or Lawyer Milloy had ever done.

After the 1978 season, the Sullivan's, who would make Jeremy Jacobs look like Mark Cuban, decided they they could keep only Hannah or Gray. Without having any viable replacement at LT, they foolishly traded Gray to the Oilers (an AFC arch rival that smoked the Pats twice in Foxboro in 1978!!!) and kept Hannah. If I had a choice between a Pro Bowl G and a PB LT, I'll take the LT any day. Had the Pats kept Gray and traded Hannah, they might have fared better in 1979 and 1980. With hindsight being 20/20 and based on the results of those 2 seasons, the Pats made the worng choice. Dwight Wheeler never replaced Leon Gray at LT.

3-of-4 posted the last fact about Hannah. Hannah's cowardly post-retirement Eason comments ruined his reputation as a teammate.

I've been a Pats fan since 1976 and I thank the Lord for allowing me to witness a truly great era of New England Patriots football in the BB-Brady years. Everything a long-time Pats fan has longed for throughout the agonizing history of this team, had finally arrived.

BTW I got my flame suit on!!!

and you are not wrong too

 

[RayClay]

If a Guard is a franchise's best player, it doesn't speak well of the frachise. After winning 3 SBs, it's a slap in face and an insult to suggest that John Hannah is still the best Patriot. With the coming of the salary cap era we now know how low the G position is on the totem pole. Guard is one of the more replaceable positions on any team. Before 2001, Pats fans had nothing to hang their hat on but shame, embarassment, what-ifs, and what-could-have-beens. With his annual Pro Bowl appearances Hannah became a shining beacon. When he made the cover of SI (1978?), Hannah became a legend. Pats fans were craving for national recognition of their team and Hannah gave them that.

Some nasty facts about Hannah...

In 1977 Hannah and LT Leon Gray, along with their scumbag agent, Howard Slusher, staged a holdout that lasted through the first 3 weeks of the regular season. The Pats went 1-2 in those games with the 2 losses against the weak Jets and the lowly Browns, both by identical 30-27 scores. Needless to say had Hannah and Gray played in those games, it should have been enough to tip the balance in their favor. The actions Hannah and Gray took were far worse that anything Ty Law or Lawyer Milloy had ever done.

After the 1978 season, the Sullivan's, who would make Jeremy Jacobs look like Mark Cuban, decided they they could keep only Hannah or Gray. Without having any viable replacement at LT, they foolishly traded Gray to the Oilers (an AFC arch rival that smoked the Pats twice in Foxboro in 1978!!!) and kept Hannah. If I had a choice between a Pro Bowl G and a PB LT, I'll take the LT any day. Had the Pats kept Gray and traded Hannah, they might have fared better in 1979 and 1980. With hindsight being 20/20 and based on the results of those 2 seasons, the Pats made the worng choice. Dwight Wheeler never replaced Leon Gray at LT.

3-of-4 posted the last fact about Hannah. Hannah's cowardly post-retirement Eason comments ruined his reputation as a teammate.

I've been a Pats fan since 1976 and I thank the Lord for allowing me to witness a truly great era of New England Patriots football in the BB-Brady years. Everything a long-time Pats fan has longed for throughout the agonizing history of this team, had finally arrived.

BTW I got my flame suit on!!!

I've got nothing. Just astounding!

 

[Pats726]

anyway i think Hannah was an immense player on the field. but, you know, i appreciated what Tony Eason done for us.
having said that probably you are a right too: with the teammates you should settle the things internally...

back to John Hannah: he has been one of the best players imho

Hannah was one of the best guards ever in the game...and one can still think that and appreciate what Eason did for the team. As for settling things internally, I am sure that Mr Hannah made his feelings known many times in the clubhouse. I would be VERY surprised otherwise. As to the best Patriot of all time?? For now, he's the man.

 

[PATSNUTme]

I always liked Hog and he is still on of my favorite Patriots.

But, the 'best ever' went away from me when I saw Richard Dent manhandle him in SB XX.

 

[PonyExpress]

Brady-to-Branch,
I completely disagree with your assessment of Hannah. First of all, he was playing at a time before the passing rules were eased, so every team's offense was based on the running game instead of the passing game, like today. Pulling, athletic guards were the engine of NFL offenses in the 70s, like those of Miami, Pittsburgh and the Raiders, and guards were the most important O-lineman as a result. The pulling guard was the glamour O-line position. Until 1982, inspired by Air Coryell and Bill Walsh, passing offenses weren't tweaked around the league to take full advantage of the new rules, and guards like Gene Upshaw, Larry Little and Hannah were still premium players. The Patriots rushing total in 1978 I believe is still the league's all-time record. Hannah's position as the greatest Patriot ever is secure until the next Patriot, playing his whole career in our uniform, makes the HOF, probably Brady around 2020. The fact Hannah is a full-fledged a-hole is not uncommon for remarkable men with amazing talent in any walk of life. His ridiculous toughness and willingness to hold himself and teammates accountable are the aspects of his personality that contributed to his greatness during his playing days. The fact he is hard to deal with since he retired is not uncommon- A similar parallel could be made with career military men thrust into the civilian world, who are like fish out of water. FINALLY, it is hard-hearted to blame players from the 70s for holding out when they were treated like cattle in the ridiculously slanted labor system that existed in the NFL in the 70's, even through the 80's. I personally don't even blame ****erson for his numerous hold-outs, rabblerousing, and forcing a trade during the 80s, disputes for which he received tremendous criticism at the time.

 

[PonyExpress]

That being said, Hannah's comments about Eason were misguided.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Brady-to-Branch,
I completely disagree with your assessment of Hannah. First of all, he was playing at a time before the passing rules were eased, so every team's offense was based on the running game instead of the passing game, like today. Pulling, athletic guards were the engine of NFL offenses in the 70s, like those of Miami, Pittsburgh and the Raiders, and guards were the most important O-lineman as a result. The pulling guard was the glamour O-line position. Until 1982, inspired by Air Coryell and Bill Walsh, passing offenses weren't tweaked around the league to take full advantage of the new rules, and guards like Gene Upshaw, Larry Little and Hannah were still premium players.

This is an excellent counter point. However, even back in the NFL's "Dead Ball Era" of the 1970s, the QB was still the game's most important position and the need to protect the QB's blindside was still vital.

The Patriots rushing total in 1978 I believe is still the league's all-time record.

The Pats '78 rushing record was deceptive. Sam Bam was their leading rusher yet averaged only 3.9 ypc. 539 of those rushing yards came from Grogan. Horace Ivory had a career year that turned out to be a flash in the pan. Andy Johnson had a good year as well but disappeared as a rusher after that season. Moreover, in 1978, Leon Gray was still playing next to Hannah. In 1978 the Pats ranked 1st in rushing and 1st in ypc. In 1979 after Gray's departure, the Patriots ranked 15th in rushing and 22nd in ypc.

Hannah's position as the greatest Patriot ever is secure until the next Patriot, playing his whole career in our uniform, makes the HOF, probably Brady around 2020.

The problem I have with this is that you're placing too much emphasis on longevity. That and the fact that O-linemen tend to have the longest careers of any non special teams position. In Hannah's case the absence of free agency kept him a career Patriot. Since the ethos of every team is to win a championship, this is the most important criteria I base greatness on. Therefore, due to his accomplishments as a Patriot since 2001, there is no doubt that Tom Brady is the greatest Patriot ever.

The fact Hannah is a full-fledged a-hole is not uncommon for remarkable men with amazing talent in any walk of life.

This doesn't excuse his behavior. I don't care who you are or you've done, nobody has the right to be a "full-fledged a-hole".

His ridiculous toughness and willingness to hold himself and teammates accountable are the aspects of his personality that contributed to his greatness during his playing days. The fact he is hard to deal with since he retired is not uncommon- A similar parallel could be made with ex-military men thrust into the civilian world, who are like fish out of water.

I disagree with the military analogy. Again, there's no excuse for Hannah's behavior.

FINALLY, it is hard-hearted to blame players from the 70s for holding out when they were treated like cattle in the ridiculously slanted labor system that existed in the NFL in the 70's, even through the 80's. I personally don't even blame ****erson for his numerous hold-outs, rabblerousing, and forcing a trade during the 80s, disputes for which he received tremendous criticism at the time.

Even back then, most players didn't hold out. Slusher was Drew Rosenhaus and Carl Poston rolled into one. If free agency was around in 1977, Hannah would have bolted or would have been miserable if tagged, which ironically would have resulted in Hannah staying and Gray leaving anyway.

Look, I'm not saying Hannah sucked or that he wasn't an important part of of the bittersweet success of the Patriots from 1976-1985. He was a great player, no question. However, my point is that the Pats and their fans were seeking an identity and Hannah, as you pointed out, was the first long-term Patriot that the fans identified with. I know, I was one of them. I also hated Eason back in the mid-80s and wanted Grogan to be the starter, but I digress. When Hannah made the cover of SI, I felt proud to be a Pats fan.

Every Pats fan was hard-hearted in 1977 following the Ben Dreith caper in the 1976 AFC Divisional game at Oakland. I still can taste the vileness from that game. Hannah and Gray cost us a chance at revenge since we would have won the AFC East by winning both the Jets/Browns games and would have faced the Raiders in Foxboro.

 

[Pats726]

Since the ethos of every team is to win a championship, this is the most important criteria I base greatness on.

Sorry but I totally disagree with the notion of championship play being "most important"..VERY silly in fact. Championships are won by teams..we are talking about individuals and there is a big difference in that. SO some fringe player who has played on many championships is better than another player in the same position who hasn't??? When you are talking about
positional players and the greatest, what the team does may fade into the back ground. Sure, it's it may add a little flair, but shouldn't become a large factor. There is no doubt that Marino is in the very top echelon of QBs, but
never won a championship.
As far as Hannah goes, he's in the top few in the guard position of all time.
Brady, at this point, does not rank in the top of all time QBs.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Sorry but I totally disagree with the notion of championship play being "most important"..VERY silly in fact. Championships are won by teams..

Quick, name the greatest moments in Patriots history? (HINT: they are from 2001-2004).

Yes, championships are won by teams...

teams that are littered with exceptional players.

we are talking about individuals and there is a big difference in that. SO some fringe player who has played on many championships is better than another player in the same position who hasn't???

That's a straw man. I never said that.

When you are talking about positional players and the greatest, what the team does may fade into the back ground. Sure, it's it may add a little flair, but shouldn't become a large factor. There is no doubt that Marino is in the very top echelon of QBs, but never won a championship.

There's plenty of doubt about Marino...

Marino Mythology
Marino not among greatest QBs ever


My definition of a great QB consists of two parts...

1.) Must have led his team to at least one championship.

2.) Must lead his team into the playoffs on a year-to-year basis over a period of time.

Examples of QBs lacking in Part 1: Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, Jim Kelly

Examples of QBs lacking in Part 2: Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson

Borderline (could go either way): Joe Namath, Kurt Warner, Doug Williams, Jim Plunkett (IMO, I consider these to be great QBs)

As far as Hannah goes, he's in the top few in the guard position of all time.

I accept the fact that Hannah is a HOF guard. As far as being the best of all time, that's debatable. I'd rather see more analysis to confirm that statement. For example, how many sacks, pressures, hits did Hannah allow compared to other HOF guards? Was was the rushing ypc on plays where Hannah was the primary blocker in comparison to other HOF guards?

Brady, at this point, does not rank in the top of all time QBs.

No QB has had a greater 5 year run than Tom Brady.

If Brady retired tomorrow, he'd go to the HOF as soon as he's eligible.

Yes, football is a team sport but there is a world of difference between a QB and a Guard. Assuming Hannah is the greatest guard of all time, the Pats won jack with him. Brady is the best QB in the NFL right now (there's no one that's close) and the Pats have won 3 SBs.

If you want to disagree with me that's okay, but don't call me "silly". At least I do my best to support my opinions with facts.

 

[Pisa]

Hannah was the best college G I ever saw

He was big at that time, fast, athletic and strong. However, what set him apart was his amazing footwork and technique. He had a whole array of moves and was great at finishing his opponent.

 

[PonyExpress]

BTB,
I agree with most of what you say about Brady. But the link does not say Brady has been on the greatest 5 year run in history, but that Brady's first 5 years have been the best in history. a subtle but important distinction which is not necessarily important to your argument.

 

[PonyExpress]

He was big at that time, fast, athletic and strong. However, what set him apart was his amazing footwork and technique. He had a whole array of moves and was great at finishing his opponent.

Bear Bryant said he was the best player that he ever coached, which is amazing.