Defense - SD vs NE

[bolts_fan]

First of all, you're so stupid that you actually think that which teams you played is the end-all, be-all. Holding any three NFL teams to a mere 16 points is impressive. However, if you had to pick three teams, the Raiders, the pre-VY Titans and the Chiefs are about as weak as you're going to find.

That said, I will tell you again - it's an impressive stat, no matter what.

Meanwhile, the Chargers lose this weekend. By double-digits.

LOL... you've shown your true colors by stooping to personal attacks. You can disagree with me all you want in terms of my take and point of view, but when you stoop so low as to call someone stupid rather than their arguments, it speaks volume about your own intelligence or lack of it.

But since you did bring it up, yes, I do think that who you play is definitely a factor in judging how good you are. But I will agree that holding any 3 NFL team to a mere 16 points is indeed impressive.

 

[jmt57]

Even if the defense is comparable, one major item s being over looked.

Does any one think that Marty Shottenheimer can outcoach Bill Belichick?

 

[bolts_fan]

Even if the defense is comparable, one major item s being over looked.

Does any one think that Marty Shottenheimer can outcoach Bill Belichick?

In a word, yes.

 

[abyzmul]

I don't think many serious Patriots fans are dismissing your LBs for a second. Including Randall Godfrey is a bit silly, but the others are STUDS. We'd love to have your LBs, and not just Merriman.

I also don't think any of us are sincerely knocking your front 3. They're very, very good. We're just pointing out that the Patriots have THE best front 3 in the NFL. It's possible you're #2, certainly top 5. But arguing against Wilfork, Seymour and Warren is patently ridiculous. They are better. Doesn't mean SD sucks. Far from it.

you're entitled to your own opinion that the patriots have the best front 3, so i'm not even going to try and knock some sense into you there. i figure i'll just let it die. ignorance is bliss, right?

As for your turnover ratio argument, that's all well and good, but it so doesn't matter. Points allowed. That's it. That is ALL that matters. The rest is just fantasy football B.S.

please refer to my post a few back. the only thing that matters are if the team wins or loses. points allowed = fantasy football B.S.

 

[abyzmul]

Even if the defense is comparable, one major item s being over looked.

Does any one think that Marty Shottenheimer can outcoach Bill Belichick?

he has in the past hasn't he? you act like he hasn't done it the last 2 times these teams met head to head..

and it's not just the head coach. we have probably the BEST coaching staff in the NFL. there's a reason people are knocking on our door to get at our assistants.

 

[boltssbbound]

Is that what you guys are referring to? If that is it then you should seriously just quit that argument.

27 games missed by starters for SD (can't include Foley as he has not played this year at all)

31 games missed by starters for NE

Wilson isn't coming back. Junior isn't coming back. Rodney, more than likely, is not coming back. This isn't about who missed more games. It's about who played best when fielding the team we will see this Sunday. The Chargers are getting all of their starters back healthy, the healthiest they've been since week 3.

Since our defense does not play your defense, I'm not really concerned about which unit is better. What I know is that the Chargers' D is better than the Pats' O, and the Chargers' O is better than the Pats D. Oh, and are special teams are better. So the only argument you have to fall back on is the championship experience/Brady is God/Belicheck is the greatest defensive mind in the history of the universe argument. It's not a completely invalid argument, but neither is pointing out that the Chargers are the vastly superior team. Unless the Chargers choke, they will win. Or to state it differently, if both teams play their best, the Chargers will win.

 

[mgcolby]

Funny... really. Let me concede a point that you all love to harp on and take out the "roided up" Merriman from the rest of our linebackers... they're still a damn good unit without him. Shaun Philips, Randall Godfrey, Donnie Edwards, and the rest are pretty damn good by themselves.

As for your front 3, yes they are very good. Any fool can see that. But our front three aren't bad either. It's not full of 1st rounders as you have proudly pointed out, but our 3 aren't bad. They're named Jamal Williams, Luis Castillo, and Igor Ohlshansky. Maybe you've heard of them.

But even aside from that, no has really answer my point about turn-over ratio

SD: Total Take-Aways 28 (16 Ints/12 Fumbles) and Total Give-Away 15 (9 Ints/6 Fumbles) for a +13 net
NE: Total Take-Aways 35 (22 Ints/13 Fumbles) and Total Give-Away 27 (12 Ints/15 Fumbles) for a +8 net

Belichickfan did in the other post. But I will go a little further - We had 18 turnovers in a 5 game stretch that concluded in the loss to Miami. Dillon's fumble against the Jets on Sunday was the first TO since the Miami game. As BF said hopefully that is fixed, fingers crossed. I have maintained since late in the season that the only way the Pats lose in the Playoffs is if they turn the ball over 3 or more times. If they don't there is no other team in the Playoffs that can beat them and I still stand by that.

Either way good observation and you have hit the nail on the head. Our achillies heal is fumbling.

or overall defense efficiency:

#7 - SD: faced 985 total defensive plays / average yard per play of 4.90 (rush average of 4.18 yards / pass average of 5.36 yards)
#10 - NE: faced 950 total defensive plays / average yard per play of 4.96 (rush average of 3.88 yards / pass average of 5.70 yards)

Anything you want to say about those particular numbers? We didn't get to 14-2 from just our offense alone you know. As I'm sure you're well aware that the Patriots didn't get to where they are from just their offense either.

The Pats will always give up a lot of yards between the 20's and always will. Every season is really the same bend but don't break. Give up the stuff underneath but don't let anyone get behind you, if they are going to beat us they will need to do it on a 9+ play drive giving more opportunities for the offense to make a mistake. I wouldn't be surprised if we lead the league in FG's allowed.

A more impressive stat is the fact the Pats allow just 1.8 yards per play inside the Red Zone.

 

[boltssbbound]

Before I continue my assault on your "statistical analysis", I need you to help me out here.

Exactly what 4 teams are you talking about, and what is the time frame of your reference?

Thanks in advance...

Well, I did explain that. I was looking at when the Chargers' D was fully healthy or close to fully healthy, which was weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 14 and 15. I even excluded weeks 1 and 2 because those games were against the Raiders and the Kerry Collins led Titans. Now, by process of elimination, if you know what that is, you can figure out which weeks i'm referring to. Weeks, say it with me class, 4, 5, 14 and 15.

 

[mgcolby]

Wilson isn't coming back. Junior isn't coming back. Rodney, more than likely, is not coming back. This isn't about who missed more games. It's about who played best when fielding the team we will see this Sunday. The Chargers are getting all of their starters back healthy, the healthiest they've been since week 3.

Since our defense does not play your defense, I'm not really concerned about which unit is better. What I know is that the Chargers' D is better than the Pats' O, and the Chargers' O is better than the Pats D. Oh, and are special teams are better. So the only argument you have to fall back on is the championship experience/Brady is God/Belicheck is the greatest defensive mind in the history of the universe argument. It's not a completely invalid argument, but neither is pointing out that the Chargers are the vastly superior team. Unless the Chargers choke, they will win. Or to state it differently, if both teams play their best, the Chargers will win.

Your defense is not better than our Offense and Oswelk's stats proved that. Your punt coverage may be better but I doubt your special teams as whole are better. Considering we lead the league in KO's, and Maroney until he got hurt led the league in Kick Return average. Gost is a rookie but has been solid - will he hit the game winner? No one knows.

 

[wdkantro2]

you're missing the point. the chargers team that your friends here love to produce stats about isn't the same team that's showing up on sunday. the chargers were plagued with injuries and still managed to be 14-2 (almost undefeated, lost 2 games by 6 points combined).

now come sunday, the only person still who is injured is a backup D-lineman. THAT's why your stats are meaningless, and the inability to understand this simple concept is one of the shortcomings amongst patriot fans on this forum.

fortunately for you, i can guarantee you that BB agrees with me. as much as you want to pound your chest like a gorilla, you're wrong.

The Pats have been severely beat up all year, NOT just the guys on IR. Hobbs is getting healthier every week, and Seymour is around 100% now for the first time nearly all year. Plus, Ty Warren, the biggest pro bowl snub this year IMO, was OUT for the one game where someone ran all over us: The second Jets game when we lost. Seriously, don't use injuries as a reason for anything when it comes to determining how good or bad a team is. If one of your guys re-aggrivates his injury and you lose, are you going to say you are still the better team but you just got unlucky?

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

Is that what you guys are referring to? If that is it then you should seriously just quit that argument.

27 games missed by starters for SD (can't include Foley as he has not played this year at all)

31 games missed by starters for NE

According to Mike Reiss, the Pats have lost approximately 180 man-games to injury this year. (The NFL does not track the stat.)

As of yesterday, we have 13 - count 'em - 13! - players on IR, including starters Randall Gay (Cb), Josh Miller (Punter #1), Junior Seau (LB), Eugene Wilson (S), and Ken Walter (Punter #2). Additionally, the list includes Patrick Pass (FB) who has been an integral part of the offense in years past.

And now Rodney Harrison has been listed as Out.

These guys who have invaded our board and insulted everyone's intelligence with their vapid, insipid posts, think 27 man-games lost is the end of the world! (They currently have 5 guys on IR.)

Here in New England, where winning Super Bowls have become a tradition, don't use those crutches. Rather, we rely on results, and you can't argue against them.

The 2003 Super Bowl Pats team lost over 200 man-games to injury, but we still beat the steroid-pumped Panthers, and did it without making excuses.

Really, for me, anyway, this is becoming a waste of time. These guys bring nothing to the table but spurts of bluff and bluster. I know some kids who can do it better than they can, and be more entertaining while they're at it.

Cherry picking 3 games at the beginning of the season...and that's what we should expect to see!

With each trolling post, with each convoluted statistic offered up, with each whining phrase about how "now we're all healthy!", I become more and more convinced the Pats will win this, and it may turn out to be not that difficult after all....

 

[abyzmul]

The Pats have been severely beat up all year, NOT just the guys on IR. Hobbs is getting healthier every week, and Seymour is around 100% now for the first time nearly all year. Plus, Ty Warren, the biggest pro bowl snub this year IMO, was OUT for the one game where someone ran all over us: The second Jets game when we lost. Seriously, don't use injuries as a reason for anything when it comes to determining how good or bad a team is. If one of your guys re-aggrivates his injury and you lose, are you going to say you are still the better team but you just got unlucky?

fortunately for you, i can guarantee you that BB agrees with me. as much as you want to pound your chest like a gorilla, you're wrong.

 

[abyzmul]

Your defense is not better than our Offense and Oswelk's stats proved that. Your punt coverage may be better but I doubt your special teams as whole are better. Considering we lead the league in KO's, and Maroney until he got hurt led the league in Kick Return average. Gost is a rookie but has been solid - will he hit the game winner? No one knows.

no, oswlek's stats did NOT prove that. please read carefully: our healthy defense (which will be playing on sunday) is better than your offense (which will be playing on sunday). it's pretty simple to understand.

 

[abyzmul]

According to Mike Reiss, the Pats have lost approximately 180 man-games to injury this year. (The NFL does not track the stat.)

As of yesterday, we have 13 - count 'em - 13! - players on IR, including starters Randall Gay (Cb), Josh Miller (Punter #1), Junior Seau (LB), Eugene Wilson (S), and Ken Walter (Punter #2). Additionally, the list includes Patrick Pass (FB) who has been an integral part of the offense in years past.

And now Rodney Harrison has been listed as Out.

These guys who have invaded our board and insulted everyone's intelligence with their vapid, insipid posts, think 27 man-games lost is the end of the world! (They currently have 5 guys on IR.)

Here in New England, where winning Super Bowls have become a tradition, don't use those crutches. Rather, we rely on results, and you can't argue against them.

The 2003 Super Bowl Pats team lost over 200 man-games to injury, but we still beat the steroid-pumped Panthers, and did it without making excuses.

Really, for me, anyway, this is becoming a waste of time. These guys bring nothing to the table but spurts of bluff and bluster. I know some kids who can do it better than they can, and be more entertaining while they're at it.

Cherry picking 3 games at the beginning of the season...and that's what we should expect to see!

With each trolling post, with each convoluted statistic offered up, with each whining phrase about how "now we're all healthy!", I become more and more convinced the Pats will win this, and it may turn out to be not that difficult after all....

fortunately for you, i can guarantee you that BB agrees with me. as much as you want to pound your chest like a gorilla, you're wrong.

 

[Flying Fungi]

no, oswlek's stats did NOT prove that. please read carefully: our healthy defense (which will be playing on sunday) is better than your offense (which will be playing on sunday). it's pretty simple to understand.

it is regrettable that you must rely upon the qualifier 'healthy' to support your arguments--the Chargers are a very good team, and rightly so are favored in this game.

but your arguments are inherently invalidated by your bias

que sera

 

[The-Beast]

Pats front 3 DL are better than San Diego's hands down. We have 3 1st rounders on the line and their names are Seymour, Warren, and Wilfork.

Your basing your opinion on the Patriots DL on where they were drafted? so that means Rivers is better then Brady because he is the 4th overall pick?

Before a positive test to heal a bum elbow Castillo was considered a low teens pick. Williams was selected in the second round of the supplemental draft, Ahmad Brooks was selected in the third and before being kicked off the VT team he was considered a first round prospect it speaks volumes about Williams talent coming out of college. Olshasnky was taken 35th overall with that mostly based off potential because he didn't have all that much football experience.

I have no problem saying that the Pats line is better, but to say it without using substance to back up the statement.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Let's get back to discussing cold hard facts much as our troll friends would like to distract us from them.

Bottom line - Points allowed is one of the most telling stats in football. Let's see how those Chargers stack up.

0, 7, 16, 13, 19, 30, 24, 25, 41, 27, 14, 21, 20, 9, 17, 20

They allowed these points against the 27th strength of schedule in the NFL. Not exactly the cream of the crop there. let's breakdown their games.

0-9 points allowed 3 games, excellent performance
10-19 points allowed 5 games, good performance
20-29 points allowed 6 games, average performance
30+ points allowed 2 games, poor performance

So on the season this Chargers defense has allowed less than 20 points a game only 8 times, in other words 50% of the time. They have given up 20 or more points in a game 8 times, in other words 50% of the time. Of those 8 times they have allowed over THIRTY points twice. In other words the Chargers have the same chance (50/50) of showing up as either an excellent to good defense as they are of putting out a middling to poor defensive performance.

Humm somehow the Chargers' defensive performance doesn't seem all that intimidating now that we break down the numbers. And also when you consider that they were facing the 27th weakest schedule in the league. Well it makes you wonder...


Now to be fair let's break down the Pats defensive performances this season.

17, 17, 17, 13, 10, 6, 7, 27, 17, 0, 13, 21, 21, 7, 21, 23

0-9 points allowed 4 times, excellent performance
10-19 points allowed 7 times, good performance
20-29 points allowed 5 times, average performance
30+ points allowed 0 times, poor performance

The Patriots defense had excellent to good performances 11 times this season or 69% of the time. The Patriots defense only had middling or average performances 5 times this season or 31% of the time. The Patriots NEVER allowed over 30 points this season. AND all this while playing the 8th toughest schedule in the league.

What does this tell us? The Chargers defense will put out only an average to poor performance about 50% of the time. Whereas the Patriots defense will put out an excellent to good performance about 69% of the time. The other portion of the time the defense will at least be competitive and give an average performance. The Pats D have yet to put out a poor performance unlike the Chargers who have given up 30 or more points TWICE already.

These are the COLD HARD FACTS. Overall the Pats defense has played better and more CONSISTENTLY this season while facing a tougher strength of schedule than the Chargers defense. Case Closed. I hope we have all learned a little from this stat breakdown. :rocker:

 

[abyzmul]

it is regrettable that you must rely upon the qualifier 'healthy' to support your arguments--the Chargers are a very good team, and rightly so are favored in this game.

but your arguments are inherently invalidated by your bias

que sera

the chargers had enough depth on the roster to go 14-2 DESPITE those injuries! now the patriots face the chargers at FULL STRENGTH (minus one backup DLineman). that shouldn't be hard to understand.

if they are a very good team (14-2) fighting through injuries, they are even better when healthy. agreed?

 

[Brownfan80]

no, oswlek's stats did NOT prove that. please read carefully: our healthy defense (which will be playing on sunday) is better than your offense (which will be playing on sunday). it's pretty simple to understand.

Based on what? Three early season games against the Raiders, Titans and Chiefs?? You're making an argument based on nothing. That's what makes it not so simple to understand. That's fine if that's your BELIEF. You BELIEVE that your defense, when healthy, is the best in the NFL, but nothing proves that as it hasn't been healthy long enough to show that.

Just don't come on a rival team's board expecting rival fans to take your belief as fact, that's silly. Your cherry picked stats don't prove anything.

The fact is that both teams have good defenses. Depending on which side of the fence you stand, you're going to claim one or the other is better, and both sides will have stats to back up their claims.

Obviously, your offense has performed better than ours this season, but whether that will hold true this weekend still has yet to be seen. Stop getting all huffy when we won't accept that your team is the greatest ever BEFORE the game has even been played.

If you'd come here respectfully and had football conversations without all the trolling bluster, then you can be assured that if the Chargers win, when you came back you'd have been greeted with respectful congrats. But all this 'crowning them before they've won' crap is winning you nothing here.

Now, if the Bolts lose I'm sure we'll never hear from you again. And if they win, I'm sure you'll come back with your disrespectful posts until you end up banned. Can't you think of anything more productive to do with your time?

 

[mgcolby]

no, oswlek's stats did NOT prove that. please read carefully: our healthy defense (which will be playing on sunday) is better than your offense (which will be playing on sunday). it's pretty simple to understand.

In the games you guys cherry picked: Your defense was a +5.8 (PA:14.5 - Opp team avg 20.5) keep in mind that the 20.5 is the entire seasons sample which is a 4-1 comparison and does not take into account any significant injuries to the opposing offense - not that it favors you guys or anything.

Now the Pats entire season without cherry picking the games where every offensive starter was healthy - they were a +4.7. In the 8 road games they are a +7.3.

In the 4-1 sample your defense is a +1.1

In the 2-1 sample your defense is a -1.5

So please explain to me how your defense is much better than our offense?

Even when all of the samples are overwhelmingly in your favor, the numbers still don't support your presumption.