Cap Space

[luuked]

It’s just my opinion, but I think Andrews is a lock to stick around for a few years. I think he wants to stay and BB wants to keep him. He’ll be paid a modest amount, will be offered a bit more by some other team (who knows how COVID will depress the free agent market the next couple years though), but will prefer to stay for a little less. Being a UDFA I think he’s loyal, and after his health scare he will want to stay rooted. Could be totally wrong, that’s just what makes sense to me. That’s not to say Bill won’t try to upgrade him, and he can be upgraded as he’s not incredible but he’s solid.

Agree with everything but I think that's the key point. They will keep grabbing day 3 or UDFA centers and the same way that Andrews beat out Stork there is no guarantee that one of them won't eventually beat out him. Especially once an improved contract figures into the value equation.

 

[Patsgofor4]

Other than adding a vet or two for short money, I think that they will, and should, save as much cap money as possible for next year, especially with the uncertainty still surrounding the season. They have the opportunity to be major players in free agency next year, even with the bonus money going to the 2021 cap. There is no reason to waste that potential opportunity, unless it means contending for a championship this year.

If, however, the season rolls along more smoothly than anticipated and they are in the thick of things as the trading deadline approaches, I would have no problem with them using a chunk of that cab space for a difference maker, as long as it is someone who would be in their plans going forward as well...cough, OBJ, cough.

 

[mgteich]

No, you could do that. I expect that the sort of player that would agree to that kind of deal would be pretty close to a JAG, but they have their uses. I just think it's really really important to not allow a penny to get onto next years cap. With it coming down the way it's going to, the Pats will be one of the few teams in a position to make substantive moves, and I expect a lot of pretty good players are going to wind up cut in the cap crunch.

I still want to be very clear in my understanding.

SITUATION
Player has a contract with no bonuses, and $8M a year for 2020, 2021 and 2022. There are no guarantees on the salaries. Ignore bonuses.

CAP HITS FOR 2020 and 2021

A) IF THE PLAYER GOES ON IR THIS YEAR, SAY IN CAMP
I believe the cap hit is $8M for each year, with the player receiving $8M compensation for each year.

B) IF THE PLAYER CHOOSES TO OPT-OUT AND IS CUT AFTER THE 2021 SEASON
What is the 2020 and 2021 cap hit. What does the player receive in money?

 

[rochrist]

I still want to be very clear in my understanding.

SITUATION
Player has a contract with no bonuses, and $8M a year for 2020, 2021 and 2022. There are no guarantees on the salaries. Ignore bonuses.

CAP HITS FOR 2020 and 2021

A) IF THE PLAYER GOES ON IR THIS YEAR, SAY IN CAMP
I believe the cap hit is $8M for each year, with the player receiving $8M compensation for each year.

B) IF THE PLAYER CHOOSES TO OPT-OUT AND IS CUT AFTER THE 2021 SEASON
What is the 2020 and 2021 cap hit. What does the player receive in money?

That gets to far down in the cap weeds for me. You'd have to ask Miguel. All I know is that the contract is tolled in the latter case, and everything is kicked down the road a year.

My uninformed assumption though is: 2020 there is no cap hit. 2021, the cap hit would be 8M I guess (although contracts are usually way too convoluted for this to be an absolute the case). If he's cut after the 2021 season, I don't know because you specified no bonuses no guarantees. Possibly nothing? Although he'd have to be cut before March 20th I guess or the salary becomes guaranteed?

 

[mgteich]

Agree with everything but I think that's the key point. They will keep grabbing day 3 or UDFA centers and the same way that Andrews beat out Stork there is no guarantee that one of them won't eventually beat out him. Especially once an improved contract figures into the value equation.

I would note that Froholdt was considered a potential starting center by at least one other team during the draft.

 

[luuked]

B) IF THE PLAYER CHOOSES TO OPT-OUT AND IS CUT AFTER THE 2021 SEASON
What is the 2020 and 2021 cap hit. What does the player receive in money?

For anyone who opts out you move everything by a year. Salary moves by a year, any bonuses -- even if paid out -- are moved to 2021 for cap purposes.

In other words any player that opted-out is either getting a 150k salary advance that he has to pay back a year later (meaning it is cap neutral) or if they are a high risk opt-out a 350k cap charge.

In your example that cut player has a cap hit of either 350k or 0$ in 2020 (depending if he is high risk or not) and a cap charge of 8M in 2021.

If you are talking about actual yearly cash paid out then 2020 is either 350k or 150k and 2021 either 8M or 7,850,000$. Again depending on if that player is considered high-risk.

I think Duvernay-Tardif's contract demonstrates all of this pretty well: Laurent Duvernay-Tardif

 

[captain stone]

...I’m sure they won’t need gofundme.com to make ends meet, but paying out $20 million for Clowney, Snacks Harrison and Delanie Walker to perhaps win another game or two in this crap shoot of a season might not be worth it to them...

Nobody's paying $20M combined for one season of Clowney, Harrison & Walker...I don't know if I would pay even half that amount for them...

 

[captain stone]

I would note that Froholdt was considered a potential starting center by at least one other team during the draft.

Then that other team must really suck.

 

[mgteich]

I would note that Froholdt was considered a potential starting center by at least one other team during the draft.

yup, cap, I do understand that is a bit funny.

However, Froholdt should be a better player as a backup center than Woodard or any of the UDFA's, ours or from other teams.

 

[mgteich]

For anyone who opts out you move everything by a year. Salary moves by a year, any bonuses -- even if paid out -- are moved to 2021 for cap purposes.

In other words any player that opted-out is either getting a 150k salary advance that he has to pay back a year later (meaning it is cap neutral) or if they are a high risk opt-out a 350k cap charge.

In your example that cut player has a cap hit of either 350k or 0$ in 2020 (depending if he is high risk or not) and a cap charge of 8M in 2021.

If you are talking about actual yearly cash paid out then 2020 is either 350k or 150k and 2021 either 8M or 7,850,000$. Again depending on if that player is considered high-risk.

I think Duvernay-Tardif's contract demonstrates all of this pretty well: Laurent Duvernay-Tardif

So, few $1M or more players opt-out, because they lose a lot, a full season of pay. Unless they have salary guarantees, they screw themselves, especially those over 30.

Consider the conversation between husband and wife.

PLAYER: Honey, I have a couple of years left of that will pay be A couple of million a year. I will likely retire (or be cut) after the 2021 season. I think that I should take the year off to protect you and the kids.

WIFE: You're giving up $2M dollars? Make believe that you work at Walmart and go to work. We can meet at a hotel that has full testing. Or, we can make believe that you are in the Middle East for 6 months, while you stay in a team hotel. It makes little sense to give up the $2M. Besides, you love to play. I know that you might be injured and go on IR. Of course, then you would be paid. Or, at very worst, you might get COVID and be very likely to have minimal symptoms, given your health.

If workers for Walmart and BestBuy can go to work, I think that you should also.
=======================
BOTTOM LINE FOR PLAYERS
Very few have opted out., except for very marginal players who might get cut and are guaranteeing themselves $150K. There is a reason.

 

[luuked]

Very few have opted out., except for very marginal players who might get cut and are guaranteeing themselves $150K. There is a reason.

They are not guaranteeing themselves 150k. It is an advance and they will have to pay it back.

So, few $1M or more players opt-out, because they lose a lot, a full season of pay. Unless they have salary guarantees, they screw themselves, especially those over 30.

The maybe more important thing for many of those players is getting an accrued season to get closer to FA and/or with respect to some benefits (e.g. 3 seasons to be elgible for a pension in the new CBA). The high risk players receive an accrued season despite sitting out and the contract tolling.

I think I read somewhere that the league changed the number of necessary games to count for an accrued season this year to 1. But I might be conflating different things so if someone sees something definitive somewhere just correct me.

 

[captain stone]

yup, cap, I do understand that is a bit funny.

However, Froholdt should be a better player as a backup center than Woodard or any of the UDFA's, ours or from other teams.

Frodo should indeed be a better backup Center for us than Woodard ever will, no doubt.
Don't know about being better than UDFAs from other teams, however.

 

[mgteich]

They are not guaranteeing themselves 150k. It is an advance and they will have to pay it back.



The maybe more important thing for many of those players is getting an accrued season to get closer to FA and/or with respect to some benefits (e.g. 3 seasons to be elgible for a pension in the new CBA). The high risk players receive an accrued season despite sitting out and the contract tolling.

I think I read somewhere that the league changed the number of necessary games to count for an accrued season this year to 1. But I might be conflating different things so if someone sees something definitive somewhere just correct me.

 

[mgteich]

So, you are saying that player who do not make the team in 2021 will pay back their 2020 money. Good luck in collecting. The NFL is unlikely to do this, just IMO.

 

[luuked]

So, you are saying that player who do not make the team in 2021 will pay back their 2020 money. Good luck in collecting. The NFL is unlikely to do this, just IMO.

Whether they succeed or not -- or even attempt for that matter -- is irrelevant to your question what the exact rules are.

 

[mgteich]

Whether they succeed or not -- or even attempt for that matter -- is irrelevant to your question what the exact rules are.

fair enough

My thought was that low priced players were unlikely to be on the roster of the team that they opted out from. It is sort of a free option. They aren't making the team this year. They collect $125M. They hope to make the team next year at minimum pay, and in that case, they would pay the money back.

 

[Uptown]

 

[Uptown]

 

[Uptown]

 

[JarOfMayo51]

im guessing Bill will want to carry a bunch of that cap forward to next year when the overall cap number is likely going to be significantly reduced..

might be worth front loading 1 or 2 deals on key players tho this year, and make their hits team friendly in 21/22