Butler/Bademosi CB Tandem Now 3-0, 13ppg Defense

[Mack Herron]

Patriots CB Stephon Gilmore leaves stadium and is inactive vs. Chargers

It is common for players who are game day decisions to leave the stadium if they are not activated.

 

[shmessy]

.......

Meanwhile, Bademosi got worked over all day on comeback routes that repeatedly extended drives. The Chargers were picking on him. I like him, but he's not a strong athlete by position/NFL standards, and against some matchups that will be a real difficulty for him. Yesterday was one of them. Bademosi is a good player with a real role to play, but he's nowhere near matchup-proof. He was a career special teamer until 2 weeks ago because it was generally believed that he did not have NFL corner athleticism: I think he's already proven that false to an extent, but athleticism is clearly a limitation for him going forward as a CB. He could still develop as a corner and make himself a bona fide starter-caliber CB2 along the lines of Logan Ryan, but he'll always be vulnerable to certain matchups, and at this point he's vulnerable to certain routes as well.

Replay yesterday with Gilmore in Butler's role and Butler in Bademosi's role, and we have a real shot at shutting them out. This defense has improved dramatically over the last month, but that improvement largely took place before Gilmore's injury, and suggesting that Gilmore's injury contributed to it is just a stupid argument that invents causation where there is none.

Good analysis there, FTW. I saw the same thing Re: the back shoulder and comeback route difficulties Bademosi had yesterday . He was obviously guarding against the homerun ball. Rivers got smart late in the game and started to hammer the comebacks and the back shoulders against Bademosi. Other QBs may start on those routes from the get-go going forward, so Gilmore getting back and learning the system (other than just man-to-man) is still the preferred plan this year.

However, the question needs to be asked: "How much work has Bademosi gotten in on those plays during practice sessions and training camps?" I'd venture to say, he's never worked on it before very much at the professional level. And he certainly hasn't had a full TC in the Pats system. His claim to fame is that Detroit made him the highest paid ST'er in the NFL.

Give him a full TC working on his method as a CB, and I'd like to see what he has. To this point in his pro career, he's had as many practice reps at CB as Slater has at WR.....and his CB play thrown in in a pinch has been far better than Slater's at WR.

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[shmessy]

Patriots CB Stephon Gilmore leaves stadium and is inactive vs. Chargers

There ya go. Thank you, Chasa.

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[tasmlab]

Looking forward to the return of Gilmore and Rowe.

Let all the CBs play, more guys the better, and now we don't have to be terrified if Bademosi is subbed in now and again.

 

[archstanton543]

There ya go. Thank you, Chasa.

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So, are you saying this proves he's a locker room cancer?

 

[chasa]

It is common for players who are game day decisions to leave the stadium if they are not activated.

really? that doesn't sound right to me.

 

[archstanton543]

really? that doesn't sound right to me.

Doesn't matter what it sounds like. It's the truth.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Good analysis there, FTW. I saw the same thing Re: the back shoulder and comeback route difficulties Bademosi had yesterday . He was obviously guarding against the homerun ball. Rivers got smart late in the game and started to hammer the comebacks and the back shoulders against Bademosi. Other QBs may start on those routes from the get-go going forward, so Gilmore getting back and learning the system (other than just man-to-man) is still the preferred plan this year.

However, the question needs to be asked: "How much work has Bademosi gotten in on those plays during practice sessions and training camps?" I'd venture to say, he's never worked on it before very much at the professional level. And he certainly hasn't had a full TC in the Pats system. His claim to fame is that Detroit made him the highest paid ST'er in the NFL.

Give him a full TC working on his method as a CB, and I'd like to see what he has. To this point in his pro career, he's had as many practice reps at CB as Slater has at WR.....and his CB play thrown in in a pinch has been far better than Slater's at WR.

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I agree, in the game thread yesterday I suggested that I saw sine Logan Ryan-type potential in Bademosi, for better and worse. They both have pretty solid size for a corner without being notably big or long. Both are exceptionally strong tacklers and fundamentally sound players. Both are prone to being burned deep and sometimes need to overcompensate to protect against that. I think Ryan has a significant edge in agility and ability/willingness to read the quarterback and break on routes that are in front of him, while Bademosi appears slightly better at contesting passes downfield (the OPI on Allen yesterday being a good example).

I think the really interesting point here is that of that trade-off, I wonder how much of it is athleticism (Ryan is clearly the more agile of the two), how much is due to Bademosi selling out a bit against the long ball, and how much was just experience. The really cool thing about watching Ryan was that for the last year or so I consistently got the sense that he was playing to the reasonable peak of his physical ability, and part of that was that he was really good at anticipating and breaking on routes. If Bademosi can develop even some of that--and it makes sense that he hasn't yet, since you have to actually play to develop it--I think he can be a legit CB2. I'm intrigued to see what he looks like this time next year. For now, though, I agree that he's ideally a situational matchup at best. I could see him being extremely effective against possession receivers, particularly guys that don't run a ton of routes.

 

[libra957]

Gilmore is talented, but it's useless if he is out of position to use that talent. The most important thing to me is the defense playing as a unit, they seem to be doing that without Gilmore. Not saying he should be bench, but if he doesn't step up after the bye then his signing will be a head scratcher.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Also, the past month has really borne out that we played a murderer's row of offenses early in the season. KC, New Orleans, Houston, Carolina and Tampa have respectively the #1, #3, #12, #21, and #6 offenses by DVOA. Over the first five weeks, we played four of the top 12, 3 of the top 6, and the two very best offenses that aren't our own (the Pats are #2). And that's before accounting for the fact that the Texans' offense is going to easily vault into the top 10 after dropping 38 on Seattle yesterday, which hasn't yet been accounted for. Since then we've played the Jets (#24), Falcons (#7 and fading fast) and Chargers (#18)

To the extent that we were alarmed after the first four weeks, a lot of it had to be due to the perceptions that KC and Houston, in particular, weren't as good as they've actually turned out to be, and that the offenses we'd be playing later in the season would be better. But that's not how it works in the NFL, too much changes on a year-to-year basis. As much as we panicked after giving up 33 to the Texans, they've since dropped 57 on the Titans, 34 on the Chiefs, 33 on the Browns, and 38 on the Seahawks. Putting up 33 on the Patriots wasn't their offense having a great day: it was actually a pretty average day for them since Watson took over and got some real game reps under his belt. Their offense under Watson is really good.

Not trying to excuse the performance of the defense over the first month, but half of the premise -- that we were getting killed by a pretty pedestrian group of offenses -- turned out to be false. We were killed by a series of extremely good offenses, which is still alarming but clearly indicates that much of the improvement in performance since then was to be expected, simply due to regression to the mean as we finally play some mid-tier and even low-tier offenses. In fact, if you look at it from this perspective, the defense has had two statement performances (strong outings against top-10 offenses) this season, against Tampa and Atlanta. And before we rush to make Gilmore the scapegoat here, it's worth pointing out that he was on the field playing a crucial role in one of those two games.

 

[shmessy]

So, are you saying this proves he's a locker room cancer?

No. If you followed the thread, Chasa had written an "I heard somehwere...." post. I was merely asking him to not leave it at that because "I heard somewhere" is unfair to the player. I was sticking up for Gilmore there.

Chasa followed it up with an actual attribution.

It had nothing to do with any point of view.

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[shmessy]

I agree, in the game thread yesterday I suggested that I saw sine Logan Ryan-type potential in Bademosi, for better and worse. They both have pretty solid size for a corner without being notably big or long. Both are exceptionally strong tacklers and fundamentally sound players. Both are prone to being burned deep and sometimes need to overcompensate to protect against that. I think Ryan has a significant edge in agility and ability/willingness to read the quarterback and break on routes that are in front of him, while Bademosi appears slightly better at contesting passes downfield (the OPI on Allen yesterday being a good example).

I think the really interesting point here is that of that trade-off, I wonder how much of it is athleticism (Ryan is clearly the more agile of the two), how much is due to Bademosi selling out a bit against the long ball, and how much was just experience. The really cool thing about watching Ryan was that for the last year or so I consistently got the sense that he was playing to the reasonable peak of his physical ability, and part of that was that he was really good at anticipating and breaking on routes. If Bademosi can develop even some of that--and it makes sense that he hasn't yet, since you have to actually play to develop it--I think he can be a legit CB2. I'm intrigued to see what he looks like this time next year. For now, though, I agree that he's ideally a situational matchup at best. I could see him being extremely effective against possession receivers, particularly guys that don't run a ton of routes.

I still think the big story is that we are unfairly comparing Bademosi to players who have spent almost 100% of their pro careers concentrating on CB.

Logan Ryan, and Stephon Gilmore for that matter, have been able to spend all their professional career reps in TC's and during game weeks working on being CBs.

Bademosi, has not been the beneficiary of that. Let's face it, he was brought into NE when Slater went down.

What he has done with very little tune-up is incredible. I'd like to see what he looks like with a year or two of more focus on CB.

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[chasa]

Doesn't matter what it sounds like. It's the truth.

is there anything to back that up, or are we just going with "i said it so its true"

imo a player that cant get on the field, in his first year, not watching the game from the sideline to try and at least acclimate himself while he's hurt/in the dog house, is kind of messed up. I feel like i remember seeing players like gronk, hightower, mayo etc either on teh sideline or up in the suite watching the game.

Just being like oh im not active? i guess ill go home, or dave in busters or whatever it is these guys do.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I still think the big story is that we are unfairly comparing Bademosi to players who have spent almost 100% of their pro careers concentrating on CB.

Logan Ryan, and Stephon Gilmore for that matter, have been able to spend all their professional career reps in TC's and during game weeks working on being CBs.

Bademosi, has not been the beneficiary of that. Let's face it, he was brought into NE when Slater went down.

What he has done with very little tune-up is incredible. I'd like to see what he looks like with a year or two of more focus on CB.

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Good post. Agree. Incredible. He's been thrown in the fire and shows a lot of potential.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

So, are you saying this proves he's a locker room cancer?

I do not think he is a locker room cancer, just the stupidest dB to ever play for us. We have to face facts, the playbook is too complicated for him! The film clearly shows he is clueless!

He’s decent in man coverage, but sucks beyond belief in any other coverage.

Harmon said it best after the game yesterday. Good things happen when All 11 guys are playing the same coverage and not 10 and 1.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I do not think he is a locker room cancer, just the stupidest dB to ever play for us. We have to face facts, the playbook is too complicated for him! The film clearly shows he is clueless!

He’s decent in man coverage, but sucks beyond belief in any other coverage.

Harmon said it best after the game yesterday. Good things happen when All 11 guys are playing the same coverage and not 10 and 1.

I missed Harmon saying that. Was it in a post game interview ? Ouch. But agree that 1 athletic but low-awareness player (who also doesn't tackle) can completely wreck a defense.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Putting this here so it doesn't get lost in the JimmyG news. Article positing that the Pats now have the Franchise Tag to use for Malcom Butler.

Jimmy Garoppolo trade frees Patriots to use franchise tag on Malcolm Butler

 

[DarrylS]

Thought Bademosi was "exposed" more during the San Diego game.. he seemed to be out of position more than during the Atlanta game.

Gilmore has only played 6 games in a complex defensive system, imo the jury is still out on his abilities here... when he was active the whole D did not play that well, cannot blame that on Gilmore.. if he is active for the next two games we will see if he has gotten better in this system.

Before we all start anointing Bademosi for Canton, there may be a reason that he has only started 6 games in 6 NFL years.. when Defenses have more film no him lets see how he does..

 

[shmessy]

Thought Bademosi was "exposed" more during the San Diego game.. he seemed to be out of position more than during the Atlanta game.

Gilmore has only played 6 games in a complex defensive system, imo the jury is still out on his abilities here... when he was active the whole D did not play that well, cannot blame that on Gilmore.. if he is active for the next two games we will see if he has gotten better in this system.

Before we all start anointing Bademosi for Canton, there may be a reason that he has only started 6 games in 6 NFL years.. when Defenses have more film no him lets see how he does..

"Gilmore has only played 6 games in a complex defensive system...." ----Really? How many has Bademosi played?

Did Bademosi have the full Training Camp with the Patriots that Gilmore had? Nope. For the 5 pre-season months that Gilmore was in the Patriots learning system, Bademosi was working the Special Teams system of the Detroit Lions.

Did Bademosi have the last 4 years of his career specifically focused on the Corner Back position that Gilmore had? No.

Did Gilmore ever have to take one second of his Training Camps throughout his career to devote elsewhere to Special Teams play? No.

I agree with you that Bademosi has only played 3 games at CB and he may well turn out to be a stiff once opposing QBs figure out his weaknesses (as Rivers finally did in the 2nd half on Sunday - don't think for a second that the Broncos OC isn't right now drilling back shoulder throws and comeback routes into Trevor Siemian's route tree).

In the game of football chess, right now is the Turning Point re: Bademosi. Rivers put it out there for the entire league to see in the 2nd half of the Chargers game. He exposed Bademosi's weakness (not that it killed the Pats or anything). Siemian is guaranteed to attack that right off the bat on Monday Night Football in 2 weeks (that is IF Bademosi even sees the field by that point) - Gilmore should probably be back by then).

But the REAL question is "What would Bademosi look like if he had one full training camp in the Patriots system working on CB?"

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[DarrylS]

But the REAL question is "What would Bademosi look like if he had one full training camp in the Patriots system working on CB?"

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Do you really want to go down this hypothetical road?? My point was simple give Gilmore a chance and see how it works out, all I have heard is what a failure he is.. personally not convinced at this juncture.

Thought that Bademosi seemed out of position during the Chargers game and was he exposed??

FWIW thought that the Pats should have signed Ryan and Butler last year, never considered Bademosi..