Budda Baker v Desmond King v Chidobe Awuzie

[manxman2601]

These are three prospects that I really like as potential Pats. They're all good/great tacklers (an important part of being a Patriots DB), they all seem to have excellent character/football intelligence and all three can replace one or both of Logan Ryan and Duron Harmon.

For example, King and Awuzie could play as the slot CB and I think all three could play the nickel safety role allowing McCourty to go back to free safety with Jones, Jones, Coleman battling to replace Ryan.

I love all three but am at a loss as to where the best value lies. I think Baker is the best prospect of the three but would need a first rounder to get him. And so I need you help.

For the sake of this thread, assume

1. Baker is available at 32
2. Desmond King is available at 64
3. Awuzie is available at either 64 or 96

So I have two questions.

Do you agree that all three are excellent Patriots fits?
If so, where does the best value belong in drafting one of three based upon the above three assumptions?

Fo example, I love Baker, but I wonder whether I might get better value from the draft by taking (insert other favourite first round prospect here) for example, at 32 and then taking King or Awuzie at 64 or maybe 96 (Awuzie).

 

[manxman2601]

One other possibility.

Re-sign Bennett, re-sign Sheard or sign a FA DE and draft both Baker and King/Awuzie effectively replacing Harmon and Ryan in one go.

And if you have any other suggestions for these roles, please feel free to add.

 

[I.M. Fletcher]

This is going to be one of the toughest decisions come draft time. I am at the point, after looking at 30+ secondary players, where I am not sure you can make a huge mistake. The talent is that good in this draft for the secondary.

My love of baker is well documented, but there is definitely going to be value later on. An example, Marcus Williams looks to me like a rangier Harmon. He isn't one of the three listed, but he offers a very specific skillset that we rely on in a deep safety.

Then you have guys like Kevin King, Jeremy cutrer and rasul Douglas who have size and hips, and can be moved around. Best guesses for those three are from 50-150 range.

All that to say, I think there will be a lot of value in waiting in this draft, because there will be significant talent available later than usual. But, that talent may not be able to do exactly what you need it to do.

The whole, collecting talent vs building a team, idea. I would go with fit first, but won't be mad if they view guys differently.

 

[I.M. Fletcher]

As for the three you listed, I don't think we have talked about Desmond king enough. He's the type of guy draft guys undervalue, and BB "overdrafts".

Team captain
Well coached
4 year starter
Special teams ace
Malleable to different roles

I know he wouldn't be my first choice, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's higher on the Pats board.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Baker has incredible instincts. I understand the Earl Thomas comparisons, but I highly doubt he puts up the testing numbers Thomas did. Still, he's a great player, and we do play with 3 safeties a lot of the time. Is that worth a 1st? I'd be tempted, but I'd rather go for Eddie Jackson in the 2nd/3rd. He's tailor made for our defense, and would instantly replace Harmon, whom I expect will start elsewhere. Jackson is probably my favorite safety in this draft. I think he's capable of playing at McCourty's level in a few years. We have so many other directions that I'd prefer in the 1st.

I've got to be honest, I don't see it with Desmond King. I liked Cyrus Jones better last year, and I still wasn't super happy about the pick, even though I did have a pretty strong feeling we'd go for him.

Awuze I like. I'm just as intrigued by his teammate Witherspoon, though. Good pair over there in Colorado. Either one of them would be fine by me. They're tough, competitive football players, and I don't care about the metrics or testing numbers. They're welcome on my squad (haha, as if I were an actual GM).

Douglas has been a favorite of mine for a few months. I'm pretty sure I've talked him up ad nauseam, so I'll just say I support him coming on board. He's a more instinctive version of Rowe, and for me that's high praise because I like Rowe a lot and think he's still improving at corner.

If I had to make a single guess about the most Patriots-like DB in the draft, however, it would be Gareon Conley. I think I have a pretty good track record of figuring out what they're looking for (I correctly predicted Butler, Chung, Dowling, Ryan, Harmon, Roberts, and Jones). Whether they were good players or not, I still saw qualities that made me think the Patriots would be interested. I don't have a perfect record, but I do think I've gotten a handle on their tendencies. Conley stands out for a bunch of reasons.

I'm tired though, and the wife is sick, so I'm going to cut this short and not keep her up with my bright laptop screen and clacking keys. I'll expound on Conley's virtues later.

 

[manxman2601]

As for the three you listed, I don't think we have talked about Desmond king enough. He's the type of guy draft guys undervalue, and BB "overdrafts".

Team captain
Well coached
4 year starter
Special teams ace
Malleable to different roles

I know he wouldn't be my first choice, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's higher on the Pats board.

I think he's a great fit. Whilst he doesn't get his hands on the ball as mich as Logan Ryan, personally I think that's who he is for us. Excellent tackler, physical and smart, covers well in tight areas but struggles deep.

Aside from the first half of the Steelers game, Ryan has been a beast in the playoffs. I'll miss him if he leaves but King would make that loss easier.

 

[I.M. Fletcher]

I think he's a great fit. Whilst he doesn't get his hands on the ball as mich as Logan Ryan, personally I think that's who he is for us. Excellent tackler, physical and smart, covers well in tight areas but struggles deep.

Aside from the first half of the Steelers game, Ryan has been a beast in the playoffs. I'll miss him if he leaves but King would make that loss easier.

I do think his athleticism will be a significant road block for him as a corner. Safety looks more likely to me, but I could be wrong.

 

[BobDigital]

Awuzie has recently become my favorite value prospect in this draft. I would take him 64 and in most drafts i think he goes in the first but this is not most draft for the CB position. If he is there at 96 or close to it he is the guy i take for max value and am happy to have him.

 

[manxman2601]

I don't really consider him a match for these three but here's a quiz for you.

• Who was PFF's highest graded coverage defender in CFB?
• Who had the most passes defended in CFB?
• Who had as many interceptions as Malik Hooker?
• Who is listed approximately at the same size as Jamal Adams?
• But for some reason is ranked at 206 by CBS
• Plays, for a large part, as a single high FS?

It's one guy. Answer below.

PS. His highlight real is awesome.

Spoiler

Tedric Thompson, Colorado

 

[manxman2601]

Awuzie has recently become my favorite value prospect in this draft. I would take him 64 and in most drafts i think he goes in the first but this is not most draft for the CB position. If he is there at 96 or close to it he is the guy i take for max value and am happy to have him.

He's one of my favourites too.

 

[manxman2601]

I do think his athleticism will be a significant road block for him as a corner. Safety looks more likely to me, but I could be wrong.

Overall athleticism or just 40 time? Ryan had excellent quickness (6.69 3-cone) but lacked long speed (4.56) which seems to be the knock on King.

 

[BobDigital]

Overall athleticism or just 40 time? Ryan had excellent quickness (6.69 3-cone) but lacked long speed (4.56) which seems to be the knock on King.

I think 40 time is overrated for CBs. So much of that can be a bad day and even if not you rarely run all out in a straight line in football without turning.

 

[manxman2601]

I think 40 time is overrated for CBs. So much of that can be a bad day and even if not you rarely run all out in a straight line in football without turning.

I'd still want a sub 4.5 guy playing on the outside, particularly if I'm drafting early (although Butler helps prove your point). I agree it's less important for a nickel guy.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Post disappeared right after MxM??

Anyway...

I'm not as high on Baker as most it seems.
Hes a 180-185 and uses his body for almost everything in college. Even in college I see him kinda tumble off some guys.
Like Peppers I dont want him covering anyone deep down field and Im not sure he has the capabilities of a DMC for example. The range and coverage ability, again deep.

Hes best in a zone, in the box. Unless he can add serious weight, keep it and play w/ it I have questions.

Washington uses him as an extra lb/db and again I just dont see the size.
Hes a 2-3 for me. Top in my top 5

Give me Jackson in the 2nd over Baker.

Ive been a huge fan of him for a long time waiting for him to boom.

DMC might actually be a good comp for him.

Former CB who when he makes a play becomes a CB again. Love his burst and closing speed. Hes not a tackler DMC is rn but he def has the want to.

Jackson has everything you want. Size at 6'+/205. Range. Can come down in the box and take a TE or slot. His versatility in coverage is a huge +.
And again when I see him make a decision, I love his burst and explosion.

Biggest thing w/ Jackson is learning the position. What better place than to learn under DMC, who I'm sure would welcome it and Bill.

Jackson's versatility is key bc he could play almost anywhere.

 

[manxman2601]

Post disappeared right after MxM??

Anyway...

I'm not as high on Baker as most it seems.
Hes a 180-185 and uses his body for almost everything in college. Even in college I see him kinda tumble off some guys.
Like Peppers I dont want him covering anyone deep down field and Im not sure he has the capabilities of a DMC for example. The range and coverage ability, again deep.

Hes best in a zone, in the box. Unless he can add serious weight, keep it and play w/ it I have questions.

Washington uses him as an extra lb/db and again I just dont see the size.
Hes a 2-3 for me. Top in my top 5

Give me Jackson in the 2nd over Baker.

Ive been a huge fan of him for a long time waiting for him to boom.

DMC might actually be a good comp for him.

Former CB who when he makes a play becomes a CB again. Love his burst and closing speed. Hes not a tackler DMC is rn but he def has the want to.

Jackson has everything you want. Size at 6'+/205. Range. Can come down in the box and take a TE or slot. His versatility in coverage is a huge +.
And again when I see him make a decision, I love his burst and explosion.

Biggest thing w/ Jackson is learning the position. What better place than to learn under DMC, who I'm sure would welcome it and Bill.

Jackson's versatility is key bc he could play almost anywhere.

I like the Mathieu comps for Baker although probably not quite as good as Mathieu. Personally I'd play McCourty at FS and Baker as the nickel safety if we drafted Baker. That's where I see his best fit.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I've been a big Uzi fan for a while.

Would welcome him w/ open arms.

Great in run support, size, awareness, ball skills. I'd be on board w/ him, Spoon, RD and others to get some size in here but really hoping Rowe steps up. I really like him and want to give him the as much time as possible. And I think Bill likes him too.

My first 2 picks, esp in 1-2 order have to be special guys.

I like the Mathieu comps for Baker although probably not quite as good as Mathieu. Personally I'd play McCourty at FS and Baker as the nickel safety if we drafted Baker. That's where I see his best fit.

My issue is the round. I wouldn't take Baker w/ either top picks. Def not in the 1st.

 

[manxman2601]

I've been a big Uzi fan for a while.

Would welcome him w/ open arms.

Great in eun su



My issue is the round. I wouldn't take Baker w/ either top picks. Def not in the 1st.

Fair enough. Depending on who's on the board, I would absolutely take him at 32 personally.

 

[jboston19]

Why not stay local in the mid to late rounds with John Johnson? He has decent size at 6' and 200 lbs and has played both safety and corner.

 

[Wilfork#75]

I'm probably the biggest Desmond King fan here and while I wouldn't say I am happy to see him struggle a little in one on one drills at the Senior Bowl, it certainly isn't a concern for me. I've been in love with him as a prospect ever since I watched him completely dominate Tyler Boyd against Pitt in 2015. You can over-analyze all the pre-draft testing stuff as much as you want but on the field King has shut down some of the best WR in college football over the past few years. As a freshman he even held Odell Beckham Jr to 2 catches for 35 yards in a Bowl Game, so I have no doubt the guy has NFL talent.

There are a couple of things that make King a tough evaluation though, the first being his 2016 tape is almost useless because nobody threw at him. There isn't very much good tape on him the past season because just about every team that Iowa went up against completely avoided him. Even when he was playing way off, trying to bait opposing QB's into making throws they still didn't bite. So you have to go back to his 2015 tape to see what kind of player he really is. Based off his 2015 tape I think he is a top 10 talent, but because his production was way down and he's not going to test great, he will likely fall into the 2nd round.

The other thing that makes him such a tough evaluation is he isn't a great athlete and won't excel in drills, but he is a pure football player. He hasn't been doing great in some of the drills at the Senior Bowl and has struggled at times. To me that isn't a big deal because while for some people it is a great showcase of their skills, for King it doesn't highlight his best attributes. He may not be able to cover Cooper Kupp one on one in a drill, but add 20 other guys on the field, game tape he can study, formations he can recognize, offensive keys he can pick up on, particular leverages he can play and game situations to adapt to and its a completely different game. King's best attributes are above the shoulders with a pretty good physical skill set to compliment it.

I posted in another thread that I love him as a potential #2 CB opposite Butler with Rowe as the matchup guy against bigger WR. Because we play a multiple defense that requires our CB's to be adept at both zone and man coverage, I think King is the perfect fit. He is arguably the best zone CB in this draft with incredible instincts and elite ball skills. In my opinion he is also one of, if not the best off man corners in this draft and reminds me so much of Darelle Revis when playing off the WR but keeping his eyes in the backfield. He is one of the best tacklers in the draft and plays with great passion and competitiveness. Add in the special teams value and I think he would be a great pick.

Of course he has some physical limitations, which I think he could mask a bit if he can improve his ability to press and be physical at the line in man coverage. But BB looks at what a player can do and how they can help the team rather than what they cant do. Give King some safety help over the top and let him play the ball underneath with his elite ball skills and I think you will have a turnover machine.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

@Wilfork#75 Passionate defense of your guy. Love it. I'll go take another look based on your vote of confidence!