BOB 'Completely Reworking' Pats Offense

[PatsSince74]

I still think we need a better starting 5 OL squad, before squabbling about unknowns in QB/OC, etc.
1-2 new OT/OG talents, if able to gel quickly (per, hopefully, Adrian Klemm's efforts) would make the greatest improvement in Mac/Zappe as QB, whoever wins the job.
Grateful for post of reads on E-P system's foundational approach to quick, clear calls i.e. commands.
Makes perfect sense imho; vital to any competitive organization, civilian/military.
Maybe also consider (hat tip to Marcus Spears) the not-yet-obsolete importance of EDGE in disrupting "glamor" QB/WR/TE offenses that the Pats must face - in favor of interior defensive pass rush to more quickly squash offensive play development.
So, maybe more of the Barmore types in draft or via later trade?
As to squabbles & nastygrams, remember when we used to say, "It's a free country, say/do whatever...?"
Wonder if vitriol here sort of leaks out from concerns about other things in the country.
Football can only do so much to give us some inspiration - but, at least it's not fiction?
Jes' askin'.

 

[mgteich]

I still think we need a better starting 5 OL squad, before squabbling about unknowns in QB/OC, etc.
1-2 new OT/OG talents, if able to gel quickly (per, hopefully, Adrian Klemm's efforts) would make the greatest improvement in Mac/Zappe as QB, whoever wins the job.
Grateful for post of reads on E-P system's foundational approach to quick, clear calls i.e. commands.
Makes perfect sense imho; vital to any competitive organization, civilian/military.
Maybe also consider (hat tip to Marcus Spears) the not-yet-obsolete importance of EDGE in disrupting "glamor" QB/WR/TE offenses that the Pats must face - in favor of interior defensive pass rush to more quickly squash offensive play development.
So, maybe more of the Barmore types in draft or via later trade?
As to squabbles & nastygrams, remember when we used to say, "It's a free country, say/do whatever...?"
Wonder if vitriol here sort of leaks out from concerns about other things in the country.
Football can only do so much to give us some inspiration - but, at least it's not fiction?
Jes' askin'.

There won't be any squabbling if we draft a starting LT and Brown is excited to be a leader on the new OL under coach Klemm.

 

[PatsSince74]

Concur, Brother - at any rate, willing to hold breath for new objective-only threads.
Fair enough?

 

[JarOfMayo51]

I'm guessing you never played contact sports much, but in my experience MOST players first reaction to injury is to get off the field as fast as you can, if able. Might not be the smartest thing, but its what I did and often saw. I know you are more apt to see a players milk injuries more these days, (see ANY soccer player, and too many NBA guys, but most hardcore guys get off the field as fast as possible, yet you want to penalize Mac for being tough,

BTW- I'm not being judgemental if you haven't been in that situation. I know a LOT of great and knowledgeable fans who never played the game or even other sports. And if I guessed wrong and you were an all star athlete.....then you should know better.

there is adrenaline pumping when you first get injured, so you can know you're injured and feel it, but still have adrenaline carry you for a minute or so

then when the adrenaline starts wearing off, the pain starts rushing in

 

[Sicilian]

there is adrenaline pumping when you first get injured, so you can know you're injured and feel it, but still have adrenaline carry you for a minute or so

then when the adrenaline starts wearing off, the pain starts rushing in

Swelling affects it too. I sprained my ankle playing a street hockey game one time, finished the game on it, then the next morning after my shoe had been off it was the size of a grapefruit and I couldn't put any weight on it. Don't know how much that applies to Mac's situation per se, just adding some additional context for those saying you wouldn't be hopping to the sideline if you were "really" hurt.

 

[Sicilian]

I'd also mention that, when TJ Ward wrecked Gronk's knee, Gronk was on the ground howling "I think I broke my f**king leg!". No one is going to accuse Gronk of being soft. Sometimes things hurt (physically and emotionally) and stuff comes out. Holding that against Mac is unjustified IMO.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Swelling affects it too. I sprained my ankle playing a street hockey game one time, finished the game on it, then the next morning after my shoe had been off it was the size of a grapefruit and I couldn't put any weight on it. Don't know how much that applies to Mac's situation per se, just adding some additional context for those saying you wouldn't be hopping to the sideline if you were "really" hurt.

yea i was playing a pickup basketball game and landed on someones foot, sprained my ankle real bad... i kept trying to play for about a minute and then had to sit down, as the adrenaline went away the pain became real intense and my ankle swelled up to the size of a softball

the bottom of my foot was completely black, from the internal bleeding that was pooling up at the bottom

 

[Bill Lee]

Sometimes things hurt (physically and emotionally) and stuff comes out. Holding that against Mac is unjustified IMO.

Indeed, there's so much judgement being applied here for one incident in Mac's whole career. As if people here understand what's going on in his mind. Same for the tripping thing, as if we know how teammates interpret it. Personally I think I'd weigh all the rest of his career more heavily than these things.

If you've read my earlier posts, I am fairly critical about his overall career. He still has a lot to prove. He has to blow past his reputation of having a limited upside if he wants to be on the team long term. As I wrote earlier in this thread, IMO this is a make or break season for him. If he does well he's on track for a long term deal. If he does poorly he's on track for a career as a backup. No wonder he's in camp early, he wants/needs to get on the same page with the new OC, especially if the whole offense is being reworked as Breer claims.

 

[archstanton543]

Indeed, there's so much judgement being applied here for one incident in Mac's whole career. As if people here understand what's going on in his mind. Same for the tripping thing, as if we know how teammates interpret it. Personally I think I'd weigh all the rest of his career more heavily than these things.

If you've read my earlier posts, I am fairly critical about his overall career. He still has a lot to prove. He has to blow past his reputation of having a limited upside if he wants to be on the team long term. As I wrote earlier in this thread, IMO this is a make or break season for him. If he does well he's on track for a long term deal. If he does poorly he's on track for a career as a backup. No wonder he's in camp early, he wants/needs to get on the same page with the new OC, especially if the whole offense is being reworked as Breer claims.

No way. If the Pats don't pick up his option he will be signed as a starter by another QB hungry team in a heartbeat. If his ceiling is as high as you think it is, he'll be a starter in this league for a while.

 

[Bill Lee]

No way. If the Pats don't pick up his option he will be signed as a starter by another QB hungry team in a heartbeat. If his ceiling is as high as you think it is, he'll be a starter in this league for a while.

Right, but if he can't make it as starter here, and another QB needy team signs him as a starter and he can't make it there, he's on the career backup path that we've seen time and time again. Baker Mayfield is a recent example.

 

[DaBruinz]

Indeed, there's so much judgement being applied here for one incident in Mac's whole career. As if people here understand what's going on in his mind. Same for the tripping thing, as if we know how teammates interpret it. Personally I think I'd weigh all the rest of his career more heavily than these things.

If you've read my earlier posts, I am fairly critical about his overall career. He still has a lot to prove. He has to blow past his reputation of having a limited upside if he wants to be on the team long term. As I wrote earlier in this thread, IMO this is a make or break season for him. If he does well he's on track for a long term deal. If he does poorly he's on track for a career as a backup. No wonder he's in camp early, he wants/needs to get on the same page with the new OC, especially if the whole offense is being reworked as Breer claims.

Breer is exaggerating for clicks. This should be plainly obvious. Not to mention that it's been explained how the Patriots develop their offense (with the exception of last year). That they start off with the 6" play-book and whittle it down from there.

Yes, the offense is "being re-worked". Why? Because of the fubar last year. Because Matt and Judge let their EGO get in the way of the team. They over-promised and under-delivered with their attempt to implement Shanahan's Outside Zone Concepts.
So, in comparison, yeah, the "whole offense" is being re-worked. In reality, they're going back to what worked for O'Brien and the Pats before and throwing in some stuff that worked for Mac at Alabama. You know. Where Mac taught O'Brien the offense prior to Mac being drafted and such.

 

[Bill Lee]

Breer is exaggerating for clicks. This should be plainly obvious. Not to mention that it's been explained how the Patriots develop their offense (with the exception of last year). That they start off with the 6" play-book and whittle it down from there.

Yes, the offense is "being re-worked". Why? Because of the fubar last year. Because Matt and Judge let their EGO get in the way of the team. They over-promised and under-delivered with their attempt to implement Shanahan's Outside Zone Concepts.
So, in comparison, yeah, the "whole offense" is being re-worked. In reality, they're going back to what worked for O'Brien and the Pats before and throwing in some stuff that worked for Mac at Alabama. You know. Where Mac taught O'Brien the offense prior to Mac being drafted and such.

Two things can be true at the same time:
a) Breer exaggerated about the offense being reworked, it's really just the old offense being reinstalled with some Mac/Alabama stuff too
b) Mac is in camp early because he understands it's vital for his career to be in tune with the new OC and whatever offense he's installing

 

[Tunescribe]

Thanks for providing this link. It should be one the must read list for all Pats fans.

I have repeatedly said that it is the semantics or language that is critical in ANY offensive and defensive system. Teams spend long days in the off season to tinker with these semantics. The goal is to give the most information clearly in the fewest words possible. As offenses have evolved and gotten more complex, this job has gotten much harder for coaches, especially on offense.

However on the defensive side info has SEEMED to have gone in a different direction. How often these days have you seen the defense actually huddle up to get the signals. It's kind of rare now. I think it's because so much of what the defense wants to do is based on what the offense shows them pre-snap. It's THEN when the offense shows its formation and personnel grouping that calls are made

Remember this guy ...

Just a thought on the whole "Mac is a wimp because he cried after getting hurt" thing.

I find it odd that it's even an issue, UNLESS you have a specific Mac hatred thing going. I was watching that play as well, and MY first reaction to the play and its after effects was this. I saw an emotional kid reacting to what he thought might be a season ending injury. I saw someone who was crying because he thought his season was over after all the hard work and effort he put in the off season and all the expectations he imaged.

ALL these NFL players work very hard to play a game they LOVE. (at least most of them). So I didn't see anything wrong with his initial reaction when he obviously felt he season was over. I would have cried too and so would have a lot of you. When you love something THAT much and work so hard to play it, with so much at stake, and think you LOST it; It is a VERY emotional moment.

So its really a non-issue.

We need to judge Jones based on his play ON THE FIELD. He had a bad year last year. There are a LOT of reasons which can explain the regression of his play. We talk about them all the time. We ALL know the arguments both pro and con and can cite them verbatim. They aren't going to change and we have more than 3 months before we can talk about anything that actually happens on the field with pads and bad intentions. I would suggest that we table all the Pro and Con Mac Talk until then. There are a number of things that could use the effort we spend on this overdone topic. The draft is up coming.

Thanks for articulating this Ken, my thoughts exactly. Too many people interpreted Mac's reaction as unable to handle the pain but it likely encompassed multiple things. That included the pressure and frustration of navigating Patricia's terrible offense (re. Parker's brain fart on the end zone interception moments before). And of course, fearing his season was over being a young guy still learning the pro game with the team on his shoulders.

 

[denverpatsfan]

Can they remove the 3rd and long plays where everyone knows they will throw the ball? That would be great!

 

[patfanken]

Remember this guy ...





Thanks for articulating this Ken, my thoughts exactly. Too many people interpreted Mac's reaction as unable to handle the pain but it likely encompassed multiple things. That included the pressure and frustration of navigating Patricia's terrible offense (re. Parker's brain fart on the end zone interception moments before). And of course, fearing his season was over being a young guy still learning the pro game with the team on his shoulders.

Thanks for the Grueden clip. It seemed that calling an NFL offensive play required a QB who had total recall to remember all of that AND repeat it to his players. However there must have been some method to his madness since it looked like that was his superbowl team down in Tampa.

That being said, have you caught any of the XFL games on TV? One of the innovations I liked was the ability to hear the interactions of the playcaller with the QB. But I couldn't help notice that the play calling was MUCH briefer than say what you saw with Grueden. Sometimes it was only 3 or 4 words. Is that the effect of an offensive system that is much simpler due to the short time they had together, OR have they made strides in the semantics they are using. My intellectual side thinks it must be because of how they HAD to set up their offenses in such a short time, BUT my hope is they might have had a breakthrough. Less thinking usually makes for more effective play and better execution on the field.

THat is aNOTHER thing coaches often have to struggle with. Offensives have become more complex and harder to defend, HOWEVER it also requires so much more THINKING and having a lot of people needing to make correct reads to get to where they need to be against whatever D has lined up against them for that particular play that EXECUTION becomes problematical sometimes.

OC's design this perfect play with route combinations that no defense can cover, then find it won't work CONSISTENTLY on the field because of its complexity. It becomes a play that when it works its a thing of beauty, but the frustration is you can't get it to work everytime. So it becomes a conundrum do you run the "best" play which might not work because its hard to get it executed OR a play they might not be as effective, but you KNOW will likely be executed to the best of your team's ability

At any rate, next time you check out an XFL or USFL game listen in to how they are making the calls and let me know what you think.

 

[crawhammer]

Whatever O'Brien is doing with the offense, it's all still coming down to QB play.

 

[All3Phases]

Whatever O'Brien is doing with the offense, it's all still coming down to QB play.

Agree

 

[PatsFan2]

Let's say O'Brien does well and with his experience it's not far fetched...will he be one and done as OC here?? Is there a OC disciple on the current staff to take over the reigns??

 

[NCPATSFAN1971]

I didn’t get why the Pats haven’t used RPOs since Jones got here. The teams in the NFL are using them a lot these days and Jones was arguably one of the most efficient QBs in college football when running the RPO in 2020, but even McDaniels never ran them. Jones was a great RPO QB in college.

I read that 19% of Jones’ pass attempts at Bama were RPOs. And he was awesome when he did.



Here is a video of how Sarkisian used the RPO with Mac.

Thanks for posting this. I understand that your point was about RPO's.

But the main thing that stood out to me watching this film was what I didn't see and that was a "Noodle Arm". I think we can thank that Blow Hard Rex "Toes" Ryan for giving Mac the nickname "Noodle Arm" on ESPN. Unfortunately, that handle seems to have stuck.

We've drafted QB's that have had a "canons" for an arm who would overthrew receivers by 10 feet in Pre-Season and never amounted to ****. I've watched other clips on Mac and he appears to have enough Zip on the ball and I don't think anyone has ever questioned his accuracy.

Last season was awful for all the reasons that have been discussed. I look forward to Obie and Mac being on the same page.

 

[Ross12]

Saw some articles going around that BOB was specifically interested in coming to NE because Mac was the QB and wanted to scheme for/around him. That's a positive.