BGC 2021 QB/PTP Thread

[miloofcroton]

If you were Bill - and remember that the Art of the Draft is knowing when to select a player just before the next team would've done - what's the latest pick you would use on Kellen Mond?

If my top 3 weren't available and I decided on taking a QB instead of something else...

Washington at 19 and the Bears at 20 are both risks, if you drop below them. I'd be okay with Mond at 15.

My hunch is that the Bears would love Mond, since he profiles so similarly to the Oregon QBs from a few years ago.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Mond at 15? Big OOF. That feels like a huge overdraft. This year's QB class will be crazy. I do hope the Pats can move into the top 10 and get their guy rather than staying put and reaching for a tier 2 prospect.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Ok well we can now safely cross off Mond now entirely from the draft board:

Report: Josh McDaniels has stayed in touch with Senior Bowl QB

Historically, not much information regarding the Patriots' draft process has reached the public. It's hard to say if coaches have done this in the past.

985thesportshub.com

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Random thought... People love to say that Alabama's talent and system makes it easy on the QB, but why do we never say this about Trevor Lawrence? Is it because he's 6'6" and athletic, and we just assume all of his success is his own?

What I see in that offense is Clemson setting him up with a lot of easy throws, both because of talent and scheme. I do really like Lawrence, but I don't think he's the risk-free option that many see him as. I could easily put Lance #1 on my board, particularly given that Lance doesn't have these same downsides.

two things to consider:

1.) these past couple of years, clemson’s offensive line has not had many drafted.

2.) with Ross hurt this past year, Clemson lacked any wide receivers on the level of Alabama’s.

yet despite that, Lawrence led Clemson to the playoffs. He is the best qb since Peyton.

 

[miloofcroton]

two things to consider:

1.) these past couple of years, clemson’s offensive line has not had many drafted.

2.) with Ross hurt this past year, Clemson lacked any wide receivers on the level of Alabama’s.

yet despite that, Lawrence led Clemson to the playoffs. He is the best qb since Peyton.

Can't you say almost the same thing about Justin Fields just last year, plus countless QBs since Peyton?

I don't know if there is ever a true, perfectly-ready pro at QB playing in college. Even the best have to be projected, and they have to grow in the pros.

But that being said, Lawrence definitely is a bit of a projection. The offense at Clemson is not the same as what you'd run in the pros. I'll grant you that it's better than Ohio State's though.

Since we're talking projections, I find it really interesting that Wentz adapted to the pros so well as a rookie. The Eagles weren't expecting him to win the job, so they hurried a trade of Bradford before the season. Then, Wentz kills it in his first few games. Lance went to the same school, and he got quality reps (they split their practices, so it's 2s vs 1s, instead of 1s vs 1s with everyone else watching) for three years even if most of his experience was in one season. I'm also overwhelmingly impressed with his skillset.

 

[miloofcroton]

Mond at 15? Big OOF. That feels like a huge overdraft. This year's QB class will be crazy. I do hope the Pats can move into the top 10 and get their guy rather than staying put and reaching for a tier 2 prospect.

I'd be happy with trading up for Jones or Lance. Not sure if either makes it out of the top 4, but if they do, they could fall to 7/8/9.

 

[Gabriel_p94]

Can't you say almost the same thing about Justin Fields just last year, plus countless QBs since Peyton?

I don't know if there is ever a true, perfectly-ready pro at QB playing in college. Even the best have to be projected, and they have to grow in the pros.

But that being said, Lawrence definitely is a bit of a projection. The offense at Clemson is not the same as what you'd run in the pros. I'll grant you that it's better than Ohio State's though.

Since we're talking projections, I find it really interesting that Wentz adapted to the pros so well as a rookie. The Eagles weren't expecting him to win the job, so they hurried a trade of Bradford before the season. Then, Wentz kills it in his first few games. Lance went to the same school, and he got quality reps (they split their practices, so it's 2s vs 1s, instead of 1s vs 1s with everyone else watching) for three years even if most of his experience was in one season. I'm also overwhelmingly impressed with his skillset.

I agree with you in slightly questioning Trevor Lawrence because I don’t think any pick no matter who it is is ever a 100 percent sure thing . I do think he’s in the tier of Peyton and Andrew luck though. I think he makes most of his passes look very easy and he throws with great anticipation, there isn’t anything he’s bad at.

The rest of the qbs after him do worry me some because I think they all have their problems. Starting with Wilson, the level of competition was not the best and his frame isn’t the best. But his physical attributes definitely pop when you watch him. But he’s unrealistic for us.

As for fields I keep coming back to him because coming to college he was essentially just hair below Lawrence in ranking. I don’t know why he’s fallen a bit because he’s played great every year he’s played. And I know some use the fact that the Ohio state offense makes it easy by scheming the number one option to be always open but is that a real con against him to get the ball out quick and to the first option? I can see the problems with anticipation and having to start throwing his receiver open in the NFL instead of just being wide open all the time. But my thinking for the pats would be to give him a year behind cam to learn and to see the game I wonder if anticipation and all that can be learned. If so I think he’s worth the pick.

And as for lance I like him a lot. Before the college season I was hoping to be able to draft him ( Lawrence was never going to happen). His upside is huge, He’s got a cannon arm, and does a lot of things well but his accuracy isn’t the best. Especially with the offense we have where the slot receiver is so important and being able to hit them in the right spot is how we move the chains in a lot of games, I wonder if accuracy is something that can be improved upon. I know josh Allen in Buffalo stepped it up but it’s not like being able to fix accuracy totally really happens once you make it in the pros.

Sorry for the long post I’ve been watching a lot of tape on both qbs lately and have no idea which to choose at this point lol.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Can't you say almost the same thing about Justin Fields just last year, plus countless QBs since Peyton?

I don't know if there is ever a true, perfectly-ready pro at QB playing in college. Even the best have to be projected, and they have to grow in the pros.

But that being said, Lawrence definitely is a bit of a projection. The offense at Clemson is not the same as what you'd run in the pros. I'll grant you that it's better than Ohio State's though.

Since we're talking projections, I find it really interesting that Wentz adapted to the pros so well as a rookie. The Eagles weren't expecting him to win the job, so they hurried a trade of Bradford before the season. Then, Wentz kills it in his first few games. Lance went to the same school, and he got quality reps (they split their practices, so it's 2s vs 1s, instead of 1s vs 1s with everyone else watching) for three years even if most of his experience was in one season. I'm also overwhelmingly impressed with his skillset.

very interesting! Why do you think clemson’s offensive system is superior to Ohio state’s?

 

[miloofcroton]

very interesting! Why do you think clemson’s offensive system is superior to Ohio state’s?

There's just more diversity of pass concepts and more pro-level throws. Fields' throws and reads are more elementary.

 

[ToonPatriot]

Ok well we can now safely cross off Mond now entirely from the draft board:

Report: Josh McDaniels has stayed in touch with Senior Bowl QB

Historically, not much information regarding the Patriots' draft process has reached the public. It's hard to say if coaches have done this in the past.

985thesportshub.com

I'm actually really warming to the idea of Mond....so yeah, definitely not happening lol

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

There's just more diversity of pass concepts and more pro-level throws. Fields' throws and reads are more elementary.

If my top 3 weren't available and I decided on taking a QB instead of something else...

Washington at 19 and the Bears at 20 are both risks, if you drop below them. I'd be okay with Mond at 15.

My hunch is that the Bears would love Mond, since he profiles so similarly to the Oregon QBs from a few years ago.

I love your contributions but you've gone far enough my friend lol.

I don't know what's worse. Mond at 15 is brutal and insane but it's opinion so there's that.

What's not opinion is Clemson runs a simplistic offense that doesn't attack the MOF - lots of behind line, RPO, Screens to get their guys in space. Very little is concept driven. Honestly it's not even close compared to OSU. Fields ran the most complex system by far. Seriously it's not close.

People that really know what they're talking about will tell Clemson's offense didn't do Lawrence any favors in terms of NFL concepts. Same for his WR in terms of rr. Everything was horizontal, yac driven. All RPO.

 

[miloofcroton]

There was an article in The Athletic that I don't have full access to, but someone pasted a copy for me. It was on the 49ers choice at QB, but it had some choice words about Kellen Mond.

Mond has a couple things that clearly need to be worked on and can be fixed. No. 1, he holds the ball way too high. He holds the ball right under his chin, and you can’t do anything athletically with your hands that high.

If you recall, that’s the whole Jeff Tedford thing. When Aaron Rodgers came out of Cal, that’s where he held his hands and that got changed the second he got to the NFL. Because what that does is that results in upper-body stiffness and a tight throwing motion. And Mond has a very robotic and mechanical feel to the way in which plays. Because it all starts in his ball carriage, and it’s way too high for him. It’s right under his chin.

This is a pretty big deal. I think if you take Kellen Mond and apply the same arm mechanic transformation that Aaron Rodgers got after leaving Cal, and you have a quarterback that looks 100% different. My impression is that people think Mond just looks weird. He might have one of the most reliable arms in the country, on top of some of the best dual threat talent in the draft, with some of the most experience in the draft, but they look at the way he throws it and think it won't work. When I see Mond throw, I see very crisp mechanics. It's tight and ugly in some ways, but it looks natural if not at least highly practiced. You can really tell that Mond is passionate.

So, I can't take the credit for this idea, but it would really relieve one of my biggest worries with him, which is the stiff upper body. Have him hold the ball lower, and it's a new ball game, no pun intended.

He goes on to say...

I did think Kellen Mond improved. I looked at his 2019 tape and his 2020 tape. And I thought that in 2020, he had much better command of his throws and that his ball placement was consistently more precise than it was in 2019. We’ll see about what he can do when that ball carriage is lower, because I think he was a strong short-to-intermediate thrower who did turn it loose, but I thought that because of the ball carriage that his deeper throws lost energy. Because he wasn’t a loose thrower. He was so stiff and mechanical. So maybe he’ll be able to drive the ball a little more and be less mechanical.

To me, he’s got the look and feel of a schemed quarterback who needs the pass game structure to work for him in defining things. But that’s what Kyle Shanahan is. He defines it for you.

I believe that I understand where he's coming from here, and at an NFL level, this is true of most quarterbacks anyway. I can't say I saw Mond completely take control of a passing attack, but I can say that he is able to throw with rhythm, precision, and decisiveness. I think those are some of the most important traits if you don't have an unbelievable ability to throw the ball and read the defense. Take what you can get, then play another down.

I also believe in Mond's character, and as I said, I think he's passionate about the game. You can hear it when he speaks.

To me, Lawrence is going #1 and Lance is going #3 (not widely accepted yet, but I'm 1000% a believer in Lance. I think he's the next great thing at QB, and I think Shanahan sees that too). That leaves Jones and Mond as worthy QBs and 11 picks between 4 and 15. I think we ought to get one of them if we're serious about getting a new QB, otherwise we should probably abandon the idea entirely for this year. Maybe revisit on day 3 for a high upside pick.

 

[miloofcroton]

I love your contributions but you've gone far enough my friend lol.

I don't know what's worse. Mond at 15 is brutal and insane but it's opinion so there's that.

What's not opinion is Clemson runs a simplistic offense that doesn't attack the MOF - lots of behind line, RPO, Screens to get their guys in space. Very little is concept driven. Honestly it's not even close compared to OSU. Fields ran the most complex system by far. Seriously it's not close.

People that really know what they're talking about will tell Clemson's offense didn't do Lawrence any favors in terms of NFL concepts. Same for his WR in terms of rr. Everything was horizontal, yac driven. All RPO.

I guess it would depend on which game we're watching. I recently broke down the OSU vs Michigan State game, which was a total ****show for Fields. Off memory, there were 7 screens, 4 sprint rollouts, and 1 RPO. Most of the screens got busted up, actually. I remember just a couple passing concepts. Spacing, Smash, Double Slants, and some sort of 4 Verts. He hit a slant, a few outs, a couple curls, and maybe one poorly thrown deep shot. Almost every completion was off target or a weak throw, or both. I think there were just a few pro-level throws in the entire game. And when he wasn't throwing, he was running scared, often leaving a clean pocket or at least failing to make an open throw.

I later learned that OSU had a couple key linemen missing, including the center, and I realized it wasn't fair of me to judge him or the offense in something less than their best game. So, I went looking for his best game and put on the Clemson game. Still currently watching it. There are a lot more passing concepts in it. Now, am I convinced he's a future star at QB? No, I still think he has bust written all over him if you take him in the first. However, I'll admit that I was wrong about it being more college-y than Clemson.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

There's just more diversity of pass concepts and more pro-level throws. Fields' throws and reads are more elementary.

so you think lance is a better prospect than fields?

 

[captain stone]

so you think lance is a better prospect than fields?

Isn't he?

 

[JerseyShore99]

Isn't he?

Higher ceiling, less safe IMO

 

[Coach42]

If you were Bill - and remember that the Art of the Draft is knowing when to select a player just before the next team would've done - what's the latest pick you would use on Kellen Mond?

242

 

[miloofcroton]

Higher ceiling, less safe IMO

I'd argue the complete opposite. Lance is one of the most polished QBs at the top of the draft. He still has a lot further to go, but he knows how to do a lot of things that other QBs don't. Take snaps under center, play action fakes, call protections, full field reads, etc.

 

[miloofcroton]

so you think lance is a better prospect than fields?

Absolutely. I don't think Fields will be successful as a pro, and I am very high on Lance, so I have pretty opposing opinions on the two.

 

[BTTA]

I'd argue the complete opposite. Lance is one of the most polished QBs at the top of the draft. He still has a lot further to go, but he knows how to do a lot of things that other QBs don't. Take snaps under center, play action fakes, call protections, full field reads, etc.

This is something that today's QB's don't know how to do? Yikes.