BB on Brady playing when he's 50: If anyone can do it it's him

[Pats1971]

yes we know the buccaneers are a super team and have been for years now

Its true, they have basically ruled football for years. If you ask people in a 3rd world nation to say what is winning, they say, the Bucs, always has been

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Fair enough, and this is where I come back to the value of hindsight: We're able to sit here and evaluate the sequence of events from whenever they start until now, and then say it would've made sense to do 'x, y, and z' to avoid 'a, b, and c'.

Would adapting the organization > player thinking in 2017/2018, to avoid Brady/Gronk leaving in 2020, have been wise? Probably, depending on extent.

But hindsight is what we use. We use hindsight to credit Bill…so many of his moves appeared to be counter-intuitive but worked in hindsight. We can’t credit him for good decisions, based on the results, and then brush off poor decisions, claiming no one can ever really predict anything.

No one is making an excuse for Al Davis, as his Moss trade in 2007 wasn’t so bad (he got what he could get) by citing hindsight. And no one is discrediting Bill for bringing in Moss because “he could have blown up the locker room.”

Hindsight can matter. Luck plays a factor often, so individual decisions can surely be attributed to good or bad luck, not knowing and rolling the dice. Hindsight matters when something very unexpected happens, like in hindsight, sure, we shouldn’t cut that UDFA who went on to be great. We should have picked Richard Sherman in the fifth round. Things like that are inevitable.

What I don’t see as something that fits as “hindsight adjusted” is the Brady decision. For one, many, many people were baffled by this. Brady repeatedly told the team he was healthy and could go on for at least a few more years. This was the biggest story in sports, not some case where the team overlooked something. It was years in the making. And it wasn’t like, in hindsight, Jarret Stidham was just lacking a few unpredictable development steps. He’s not an NFL caliber player. There’s really not a lot of excuses thst can justify a terrible decision like this. Many thought the Patriots were acting insane, or arrogant, or stubborn, in the way they handled Brady. They were.

"Letting two Hall of Famers walk out the door, both thrilled to play for another coach, is simply not in the best interest of the team."


In this case, yes, it doesn't appear to have been best for the team, but that principle alone isn't always valid. The devil is in the details. How well are they still playing? For how much longer will they continue to play well? What are the alternatives should we let said player go? How much would they cost to retain?

Using those criteria, it didn't make sense to let Brady go, but it was a lot murkier with Gronk. We're now able to know that Gronk's drop-off stems more from a lack of rest and nicks/dings rather than permanently breaking-down, but I wouldn't have called someone unreasonable if they said Gronk was shot after the 2018 season.

I also don't think that players need to be "thrilled" about playing for their coach; there's a fine line, obviously, with Arians being on one side of the spectrum and Belichick on the other in terms of how close they let themselves get with their players.

Brady and Gronk wanted a change, Arians is a unique guy, and they've hit it off (in no small part due to their on-field success). That shouldn't be an indication that Arians' approach is better than Belichick's or vice-versa; they're different. I could see the inverse, where Brady spends the first 10 years of his career with someone like Arians, and then moves on to play for someone like Belichick and is rejuvenated, refreshed, and excited because he's playing for someone who appreciates attention to detail, hard-work, and winning, a culture that would really resonate with Brady had he been in a different environment for the first part of his career.

That's not to say Belichick can't learn/improve personnel management going forward, and it's also not to say there isn't some value in Arians' approach, but I do think some of this comes down to change and a new environment (after spending 20 years in the same place, under the same coach) leading to a bump in morale.

Fair enough. I believe Bill was the man for the job for this type of long term success. Arians philosophy is ideal for a team that’s stacked, winning, and in it for a few years with veteran players who know how to show up on Sunday. Bill made the tough calls and took the short-term losses for long-term gains. In roughly 2015/2017-ish, the philosophy no longer matched up well with personnel, mainly because of the dry well drafting that caused veterans to overstay without drafted players coming in to replace them.

 

[Pats1971]

But hindsight is what we use. We use hindsight to credit Bill…so many of his moves appeared to be counter-intuitive but worked in hindsight. We can’t credit him for good decisions, based on the results, and then brush off poor decisions, claiming no one can ever really predict anything.

No one is making an excuse for Al Davis, as his Moss trade in 2007 wasn’t so bad (he got what he could get) by citing hindsight. And no one is discrediting Bill for bringing in Moss because “he could have blown up the locker room.”

Hindsight can matter. Luck plays a factor often, so individual decisions can surely be attributed to good or bad luck, not knowing and rolling the dice. Hindsight matters when something very unexpected happens, like in hindsight, sure, we shouldn’t cut that UDFA who went on to be great. We should have picked Richard Sherman in the fifth round. Things like that are inevitable.

What I don’t see as something that fits as “hindsight adjusted” is the Brady decision. For one, many, many people were baffled by this. Brady repeatedly told the team he was healthy and could go on for at least a few more years. This was the biggest story in sports, not some case where the team overlooked something. It was years in the making. And it wasn’t like, in hindsight, Jarret Stidham was just lacking a few unpredictable development steps. He’s not an NFL caliber player. There’s really not a lot of excuses thst can justify a terrible decision like this. Many thought the Patriots were acting insane, or arrogant, or stubborn, in the way they handled Brady. They were.



Fair enough. I believe Bill was the man for the job for this type of long term success. Arians philosophy is ideal for a team that’s stacked, winning, and in it for a few years with veteran players who know how to show up on Sunday. Bill made the tough calls and took the short-term losses for long-term gains. In roughly 2015/2017-ish, the philosophy no longer matched up well with personnel, mainly because of the dry well drafting that caused veterans to overstay without drafted players coming in to replace them.

To be honest, This is a chance for Bill to show that. Brady is gone and not coming back, so lets see 6 superbowls. I know thats unfair, but with every Idea, with every team motto, with every, this is what we are. You have to win, when you win, then you can say, its the system, its the process, its the patriot way. When you are not winning those things sound strange, so here is the chance, was it the patriots way? Or was it, we lucked into a goat QB falling into our lap for 20 years. This is not some trash Bill thing. Bill is a coach, and you can be the best coach ever, but if you do not have the players, you dont win. You can make the best calls ever, do everything you can to make it work, if the players dont execute, you lose. A coach only has so much control over games. I mean do you ever see great QB's with bad coaches? No because they win because they have a great QB. Arians never did much, talent didnt mean ****, then all of the sudden Brady shows up they win a superbowl and now arians is a great coach? Arians at one point or another had Manning, he had Ben, Luck, Palmer, Lets just say they had lots of ints. Why was Brady different? Did he become a better coach? Didnt look like it in 2019.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

To be honest, This is a chance for Bill to show that. Brady is gone and not coming back, so lets see 6 superbowls. I know thats unfair, but with every Idea, with every team motto, with every, this is what we are. You have to win, when you win, then you can say, its the system, its the process, its the patriot way. When you are not winning those things sound strange, so here is the chance, was it the patriots way? Or was it, we lucked into a goat QB falling into our lap for 20 years. This is not some trash Bill thing. Bill is a coach, and you can be the best coach ever, but if you do not have the players, you dont win. You can make the best calls ever, do everything you can to make it work, if the players dont execute, you lose. A coach only has so much control over games. I mean do you ever see great QB's with bad coaches? No because they win because they have a great QB. Arians never did much, talent didnt mean ****, then all of the sudden Brady shows up they win a superbowl and now arians is a great coach? Arians at one point or another had Manning, he had Ben, Luck, Palmer, Lets just say they had lots of ints. Why was Brady different? Did he become a better coach? Didnt look like it in 2019.

Or how about at least, as a start, actually being in contention? Reid could do it with Average Alex and all his limitations. If Bill can’t win it all with an average QB, whatever. If he can’t take that team into the postseason, demonstrating his coaching prowess, then I’m tired of hearing about his brilliance. One postseason appearance, zero division titles, in eight seasons without Brady.

 

[Pats1971]

Or how about at least, as a start, actually being in contention? Reid could do it with Average Alex and all his limitations. If Bill can’t win it all with an average QB, whatever. If he can’t take that team into the postseason, demonstrating his coaching prowess, then I’m tired of hearing about his brilliance. One postseason appearance, zero division titles, in eight seasons without Brady.

As I said, this is his chance. He got to pick everything. He got a top 1st round QB, he got to spend tons in free agency. He built this team from the ground up and brady is not here. Lets see what happens. We already saw what Brady could do with living the nest, so lets see what Bill can do with the nest.

 

[sb1]

This is not some trash Bill thing. Bill is a coach, and you can be the best coach ever, but if you do not have the players, you dont win.

Exactly.

We saw in 2020 how good coach Bill really is with a crap QB and crap roster. Certainly didn't look like the GOAT people say he is.

While I do think Bill coached them up to their ceiling, that isn't enough to make a contender if you don't have the players. You can drive a regular car very well and make it go as fast as it can...but that doesn't mean you could win a race in Nascar.

Great players > great coach. And Bill isn't as good a coach without his all world QB. That's a fact. That's also not unusual. No coach would be.

 

[Pats1971]

Exactly.

We saw in 2020 how good coach Bill really is with a crap QB and crap roster. Certainly didn't look like the GOAT people say he is.

While I do think Bill coached them up to their ceiling, that isn't enough to make a contender if you don't have the players. You can drive a regular car very well and make it go as fast as it can...but that doesn't mean you could win a race in Nascar.

Great players > great coach. And Bill isn't as good a coach without his all world QB. That's a fact. That's also not unusual. No coach would be.

Exactly, it does not matter if you are the best coach, you have to have players. You can only get so much out of a bad roster and a bad QB. A coach has to stand on the sideline and hope its executed.

 

[Biffins]

I have mercy on BB for letting Tom go. It is his biggest mistake - but I would have made it to and so would any other coach. QBs usually fall part around 40 - or even earlier. How was BB supposed to know?

Think of it like buying bitcoin. I could have bought some cheap - but I didn't. I didn't really understand bitcoin and its now going for like 50k each..
Was it a mistake to not buy it - sure. Was it a big mistake - sure. But can you destroy me for not buying it? I bet most here didn't either..

BB thought Tom would fall apart and fail in TB. Even if he could win - he was going to be like Peyton - washed up and just hanging on.. But he was damn good and still plays like 34 year old Tom..

So why not cut your losses and let him go? That was the thinking.. It was perfectly reasonable thinking - Tom is like a super human. The entire ESPN channel was dead wrong about him.

So betting on Tom Brady ia like buying bitcoin? Whaaaaaaaaaat?!?!?

 

[Biffins]

That's just not accurate. Brady wanted to stay. Brady wanted a multi-year contract. Bill wouldn't give him one. Brady didn't want to stay going on annual contracts knowing how cut throat Bill was, so he asked in return for team not to apply franchise tag and allow him to become a FA.

There was a majority of posters that agreed with Bill:
"Why should they take risk on an old QB that may fall off a cliff."
"Bill always says, better a year early than a year late."

And more utter nonsense as if Brady was a JAG.

Truth is, Bill was dead wrong. All the posters that sided with Bill and had no problem chasing Brady out of town were dead wrong. The reckoning is coming on Sunday, October 3rd and as a Pats fan that didn't want to see him leave, it's going to suuuck.

Please spare me any cap arguments: see TB Bucs 2021.

What I find absolutely jarring is everyone’s inability to be honest about their original rationale and assessment. Noone here or BB says “we thought Brady would fall off a cliff but he didn’t. We were wrong”. Even in the face of mounting evidence they still want to defend the original decision to run Brady out of town.

It’s ok to say that you were wrong. Noone has a crystal ball.

 

[Biffins]

You genuinely think folks here "chased" Brady out of town? Dude is the freaking GOAT - this fanbase loves him, Belichick has said countless times that there is no other quarterback he'd rather have.

I think a lot of things led to Brady's departure, but the end-all-be-all is Belichick's refusal to extend an "until you're 45" extension during the time span from 2017 - 2019, and that's basically it.

If Belichick was willing to commit to Brady through 45, he'd be here, regardless of how the roster looked from a talent perspective, scheme, Guerrero, rumblings about frustrations with offensive personnel/approach and Brady's lack of input, etc -- if Belichick was willing to indicate via a contract a commitment/belief in Brady, he'd still be here IMO. It was a mistake to not retain Brady given his level of play.

The stuff about people chasing Brady out of town (Belichick included) is just not true IMO. I'd bet my bottom dollar that if you surveyed the folks who frequent this forum the most, 90-95%+ would indicate they still want Brady in a Pats' uniform. I don't think Belichick's old-school adherence to rigid organizational principles (to a fault, at times) is equivalent to intentionally chasing Brady out of town.

He certainly didn't treat Brady differently than he would anyone else, which was a mistake ... because he's Tom Brady, but I don't think Belichick consciously thought, "I don't want Tom around anymore", and then proceeded to deliberately sabotaged their relationship in order to chase Brady off. That is what "chasing someone off" implies to me.

Well, you’re right. BB didn’t commit to Brady till 45 and in return Brady left. You can choose to call it “chase out of town” or just “business”. Point is that BB could have kept Brady at a reasonable price but didn’t want to risk it. It was BB’s assessment that Brady wasn’t worth that multi-year commitment. It was BB’s call……..

and he was wrong.

And if Brady had totally fallen off a cliff and his play at Bucs had declined and collapsed we’d all be saying what a genius BB is, and how he saw it coming. And I would be admitting that I was wrong.

Instead the evidence shows BB was dead wrong. His assessment of situation was poor. The risk-reward was worth it and it was a touch and go situation (they did offer a 1 year $23m after all). And in the end BB is on the wrong side of that assessment. And just as he would have gotten the credit if he was right, he now rightly gets the blame now that he’s so dead wrong!!